Fionavar

Well seems we have derailment ... nothing to see here move along ... FLoSD.ObE

See previous threads: 1 2 3 Please feel free to contribute to the ongoing discussion. There is a lot of interest in this topic and keeping input centralised and presented in a clear and articulate manner will have more impact and influence than posting to the contrary

As we have moved more into a general chat - I'll close this thread down and start Part 4

Has anyone used both at the same time with a clean install with the 1.2 patch? Any problems? Impressions? Thoughts? Feedback appreciated

I really cannot address the other concerns, but I can in fact state assuredly that your valid criticism is in fact not indicative of the entire Christian tradition, as it exists internationally. There are in fact many denominations - and even those that are currently struggling at this stage have active Brothers and Sisters working for this change - that are both inclusive and open to all people regardless of gender, race or sexual orientation. Furthermore, there are denominations that have leadership roles at the highest level that have been held by women, as well as non-Caucasians Though I can sympathise with your frustration, rest assured that there are in fact places and denominations where people strive within our limited capacities to be more inclusive in order to attempt to make manifest the covenant of community.

Though the media is keen to polarise perceptions about 'who' and 'what' a Christian is, the fact is that there is a large range of theologies denominationally that indicate that there is really no 'normal' or 'standard' point of view. The Radical Theology with which I feel comfort is neither dominant nor fringe, it has a voice within the Church as an extension of the Body of Christ. It is easy to engage in polemic against Christianity by citing verse literally to challenge those who claim literalism as an authority for their more fundamental theology - sort of ironic. For me, I find that there is so much history and depth to Christianity that it requires an intentionality that takes a lifetime to begin to find comfort with it as an expression of one's spirituality, as opposed to dogma. Part of any difficulty that revolves around a discussion of Religion is the use of language. The set of assumptions and biases that are never checked can end up juxtaposing people before they even attempt dialogue. Your use of faith - for instance - is what I would call belief. Faith is not an articulate set of precepts - rather it is, for me, what one knows through discernment. Beliefs are linguistic attempts to intellectually describe faith. The problem is that once written, there is a tendency to concentrate upon the word and not the fact that it is the expression of one person at one moment who would likely describe it otherwise the next time. Though this may seem semantic, perhaps even pedantic, it is important to normalise such discussion in order to attempt to establish a shared vocabulary. In such a pluralist society, there is a tendency for two people to debate a point, using the very same words, when they are fact in possession of very different meanings. Though I am not a Roman Catholic, I would say that the RC tradition has in fact a great respect for women. I would contend, though I may disagree with my Brothers and Sisters of the RC denomination with various areas of interpretation and theology, that there is indeed a sanctity with which the RC tradition holds and honours women. Blanket statements about anyone's tradition can be difficult to defend on a personal basis. I am not an apologist for the treatment of women within the RC tradition, but nor am I comfortable using a generalisation to identify a truth.

I would like to add a further reflection to this ongoing discussion. For some, the Bible is not so much an authority owing to it being the word of God, as much as it is an attempt of a people within in a continuum of faith to articulate that which they hear and feel God emote. As a result, the act of freeing God from our hubris is always stunted, to a certain extent, by the cultural norms with which language limits expression. Though I can appreciate the desire to 'prove' or disprove' that which one does not feel represents the Divine for them, I think it is also important to realise that Belief is, ultimately, an imperfect attempt to articulate with the imperfection of language, one's Faith. And I feel Faith is that which one knows intimately as true, but defies articulation. Ultimately the word itself is idolatrous if we fail to recognise it as a moment in time to express that which is intangible.

Well I think we have now arrived at derailment from which there is no return ... so off to the AotS and Mike welcome :D

The idea of sexuality in regard to the OT/NT is based on a couple of assumptions that have since been challenged - convincingly I would argue - that include, but are not limited to, several insights of Reason as a mode of Biblical Authority - from a Protestant point of view to a certain extent. First is that sexuality from a Biblical perspective was founded on the male as normative - patriarchy. Furthermore, the Roman/Hebrew prohibition is in regard to agency in relationship to sexuality: Passive/Active. The Passive agent - both male (in a same-sex relationship) and female were considered sub-standard - but the female was normative as a bi-product of ownership and reproduction. Finally Reason now indicates rather strongly - I would contend convincingly - that sexuality is not normative male-female. There are enough mammalian examples of homosexuality, as well as genetic/psychological indicators, to indicate that sexuality is in fact multi-faceted and determined by such factors as genetics, biology and environment (again not exhaustive). I would challenge a literal interpretation of male-female sexuality as normative from a Biblical perspective with such evidence, but again this is not exhaustive, and does not begin to wrestle with the Intent as opposed to the Isolated textual criticism in this regard.

Please feel free to add comments, ideas and suggestions to the existing discussion into any potential KotoR 3. http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=33624

I remember during Grad school while I was struggling with Vergil and the Pastorals and then one day ... I just got it. For the first time the Roman appreciation and ideal of the pastoral life was not academic, I could taste it. The scenes in Gladiator during the imagining of Maximus about his home in Spain (i.e. his Elysium) convey somewhat the Roman mystique of the pastoral life ... the same can be said of the Greek. I remember getting Herodotus for the first time - not as a boring history, but as a vibrant expression of the wonders of the world. I will not bore anyone further about how the NT and OT come alive in the original, needless to say there is indeed a wonder of seeing through the lens of language a people's dreams, mistakes, fears and hopes.

As a translation, the Bible can often seem difficult to appreciate as a literary expression of a faith community's journey. In the Greek and Hebrew, however, the Hebrew Scriptures and the Koine of the New Testament are a vibrant expression of creativity and art. It is always important to realise that every translation - from the academic to the 'vulgate' (if you will) - is a set of compromises that will never fully impart the depth of rhythm and meter, the intense use of rhetoric and the overwhelming efficiency of language that passionately describes the struggles of trying to vision and myth-make who and what God is in history for the Judeo-Christian experience. It is a dangerous precedent to make conclusions as to the literary merit when what one has - albeit an intentional attempt to transmit the original - is merely a shadow of that which is only accessible in the original language. Furthermore, the nuances in the Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew is often glossed over when people are tempted to misrepresent Scripture out of context from not only the socio-historic realities, but the characteristics by which language transmits myth and truth.

Like only the Big Green on da Roost could ...

Though I am most appreciative and sensitive to various theological perpesctives and interpretations, could we try not to insult other members? So far this thread has remained civil, and I would like it to remain that way, lest I actually have to do something!

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=33624

Well and with that salutation in mind, we'll pack up the b-day thread until the next year. I'm sure his Lordship has enjoyed all of our banter and wishes

Subtle nudge - let's not ... OK FLoSD.ObE

Please feel free to add you comments in regard to any potential KoToR 3 in the following ongoing discussion: http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=33624

Please feel free to add you comments in regard to any potential KoToR 3 in the following ongoing discussion: http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=33624

Nope nothing to do with Laozi's ability to respond, merely the Dread Pirate Roberts keeping all safe from SPAM ...

Well don't worry about protocol, seems language filter and SPAM are more of an issue at this point ...

Warning Derailment has occurred ... closure in 3 ... 2 ... 1 .... FLoSD.OBE

Well I thank everyone for their interest in the topic and the fact that it has generally remained respectful and constructive. As we have arrived outside of the intent of the thread and the forum in general, rather than invite the Mites of the Sandbox to undo all that has been shared, we'll retire this to the AotS.

I'm sure this is not required, but let's post in this thread with respect and maturity.

Well that was fun ... it's amazing how quickly the sandbox dirties up the various fora ... FLoSD.OBE