JFSOCC

I was hoping for some discussion...

Yes, maces, batons, clubs, and sticks! we need more of those!

I wasn't disagreeing with you. So what's your point? Would you rather not have technology? For that matter, there is no established lore saying that technology & magic couldn't exit within P:E. I feel like you read a single line, and missed the entire post. My point was that by pushing P:E's setting up towards a more Renaissance level, more dynamics can be explored than the same worn-out Dark Ages fantasy. The gun itself is immaterial. It's the level of advancement that it represents which matters. It will be a golden age. You'll be raiding a laboratory in its prime and glory rather than spelunking through its forgotten ashes. This is what matters. I look forward to the change of pace and setting.

guns provide a counter to a wizard specific ability, that doesn't preclude guns frm getting magical enhancement themselves. And technology vs magic is the oldest and most tired fantasy cliché EVER. It's like Tolkienesque whaah technology is evil, whaaah so only orcs and goblins will use furnaces and gunpowder and warmachines. Ugh. Guns are a natural progression of the technology in this world and there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't be upgraded and enhanced by magic themselves. Hell, I imagine many wizards would carry such a gun. They're not stupid, after all.

I treated myself to 47 Ronin, why does Hollywood think we need so much exposition? I'm not stupid, you don't have to tell your Japanese daughter what seppuku is, everybody in Japan knows. It was an engaging but ultimately tame Americanisation of a well known Japanese tale.

Why would a sequel diminish the first game in any way? Doesn't it stand on its own? I don't believe Obsidian will have to sacrifice anything in order to leave room for a sequel. And that's an opinion, not a fact.

yes

Factions are in and an integral part of the story. There are certainly some threads on factions (like the one in my signature)

by all means share! No-one will care if your post approaches the topic from a different direction, and all contributions are appreciated.

As Project Eternity has moved into the production phase this topic is possibly academical, nevertheless I think it's a worthwhile discussion. 1. Asymmetric play. Steve and his party have been given a task of clearing out a bandit stronghold. There is a walled encampment adjacent a small river tributary. Instead of going in head first and being slaughtered, the team does some preparation work. Steve, the party rogue sneaks successfully into the camp, and finds a position where no enemy patrols come by save the one he quietly killed. He has a fairly high mechanics skill, and is preparing to set off an explosion in the camp's storage of gunpowder. Meanwhile, Martin, the party barbarian has used his athletic strength to traverse the river, he is hiding in the bushes near the back of the camp, where he can see canoes coming in and going. it is a mere twenty paces of open terrain to enter the camp from behind, where it is unguarded. Charles, the party wizard can't reach these places, he can only enter through the front door, he prepares a few illusion school spells from his grimoire, meant to give the enemy the idea that there are more enemies about than there really are Further more he uses his familiar to fly over the wall innocuously. The familiar will be delivering spells from where the wizard cannot. Bart, the party druid finds a small crack in the wall, just large enough for his animal to go through. It stealths through the encampment to a point where it could easily attack the gate guard from behind. Mira, the cypher uses her non-combat abilities along the wall, trying to find the respective strengths and numbers of the enemy, finding a gathering of weak willed individuals near the wall, she prepares her confusion spells, making enemies into unwitting allies when the moment is there. Finally Jennifer the priest uses her diplomatic abilities to go straight through the gate in order to "tend to the sick". Using her knowledge of medicine she drugs the food, and the party waits for nightfall. When nightfall comes, an explosion rocks the camp. A few groggy guards are trying to get up from bed but can't. Others are running towards the explosion drawing away some men from their positions. However the gate gets some reinforcements. Steve the rogue spots a commanding officer trying to organise his team, he decides to attack him before he can do too much damage. Right at that moment a the weak-willed guards start attacking their own team near the wall. Meanwhile at the gate guards are fighting phantoms while a cone of cold is launched at them from behind. Martin is just wreaking havoc near the back of the camp, dealing with stragglers together with Steve and Jennifer. The final fight is at the gate, as the guards finally realise they've been flanked, the team rejoins each other and fights them from all sides. What's left of the camp is quickly dispatched. -- That's an example of asymmetrical play. Each member of the party had an ability allowing them to pick a task other party members could not do. Each character has a chance to shine and show off their personal skillset. Most importantly, their skills are radically different, helping each character to be distinct from their party members. What's also important is that each task still worked towards the same overarching goal. It wasn't a case of "Now Steve gets to be useful, next time it will be Mira". All party members got to be useful in this encounter. And they got to be useful in their unique and personal ways. I believe asymmetrical play is at the core of what differentiates characters in and out of combat. With this I mean that each player character has their own method of dealing with problems and their unique benefits to bring to combat. Too often in games, this kind of distinctive gameplay isn't available. Instead we have to make do with class exclusive quests or narrative reactivity, but nothing where the use of a unique skill or ability fundamentally changes the way you approach an encounter. It gets so bad that skills in some games are mechanically identical or similar, with palette swapped icons failing to hide this. Often different skills/spells/abilities offer hardly any variation on how to approach any encounter, instead are so similar as to be nearly interchangeable means of dealing damage. 2. Skill diversity and as it pertains to Asymmetric play. I'm a big fan of P:E's intention to make all skills available to everyone, I believe that this allows more choices available to your character, while full parties can still enjoy uniquely specialized characters. However, in order for characters to have truly unique methods of approaching their objectives, to have more than one method of contributing to the same goal, you need a sufficiently unique skill-pool. If Steve can sneak to point A, Martin can climb to point A, Mira can fly to point A, Bart can jump from point B to point A, then the differing skills offer no unique gameplay. If I can hire a medic, or use my own medicine skill or use a medkit to save the life of a soldier, that offers no unique gameplay. If I can bluff, use diplomacy, intimidate, or seduce an answer out of a guard, then these skills are not sufficiently distinct. These are different routes with the same end result, what you want is different routes with different results. I submit then, that it is better to have a small skill pool of significantly distinct and specialized skills, than a large pool of skills with overlapping uses. Not only do distinct skills help differentiate and specialize your player characters, but it allows you to use a six man team to to their maximum effectiveness, each adding to the team in a unique way. I realise that it would require a lot of animations for different means to get around obstacles. (climbing, sneaking, jumping, crawling, squeezing through, carrying bodies and what not) Personally I find character animations a worthwhile investment. A large pool of character animations is useful for several reasons, and I'm pretty confident that modders will be grateful to have a large pool of animations to work from. Another benefit of distinct skillsets is functional replayability. If it is impossible for a party to master every (significantly distinct) skill, then each playthrough* offers different methods of dealing with challenges and perhaps different choices will cause players to face different challenges altogether. *provided you don't roll the same character every time.

Oh Dae Su fighting off a gang with a claw hammer and his endurance in a hallway is a lot more epic than two level 30 mages riding dragons slinging fireballs at each other. Epic is surviving incredible odds, the level 30 mages would have equal odds.

I think it's widely known to be one of the weak spots of the IE engines, and will certainly be improved in Eternity.

Banshee haunter. The Banshee haunter is a terrifying foe. The tortured soul of an unjustly slain person, dying defending their home. Banshees appear in abandoned places where there are many restless dead. Banshees have two conflicting motivations which guide their tortured existence. 1. They refuse to give up the place that they lived in during life. It is theirs and any intruder is unwelcome 2. They long to be alive, to be amongst the living, like all undead spirits they will clamp on to the nearest living intelligent soul. Banshee haunters have a few benefits in combat. Banshee haunters are ethereal, meaning they cannot be seen unless somehow made visible, they can fly through walls and doors as if they weren't there, and their attacks ignore armour. Furthermore it takes enhanced weapons to strike at them. they have damage immunity for most normal types of damage. (soul powered skills and abilities will still deal damage) Banshee haunters do not do much damage, but half of all damage that they deal is converted to stamina, and a quarter of the damage that they deal is converted to health (up to their maximum health) Typically a Banshee haunter will attack during a quiet moment, starting with a banshee wail. A long thrumming howl which causes fear and drains stamina, and cannot be defended against if it crits (like a sneak attack). Any attack on a panicked enemy deals double damage and increases their panic duration by another 2 seconds. The Banshee Wail also alerts all nearby enemies to the party's presence. Banshees dart in and out of combat like guerilla fighters. Meaning after each attack it is likely to retreat for a time before it attacks a party when it is off guard again. Banshees avoid buffed party members unless cornered. Banshee haunters are easily held off by warding spells, but will remain in the area forever until defeated. Once the Banshee haunter is defeated it spawns a Haunter (and drops some interesting crafting materials) ----- Haunter Haunters haunt the creature which killed their previous incarnation, the Banshee haunter. They will keep moving on to new victims however if their current victim dies. Any victim which dies while affected by a haunter will turn into a haunter upon death. Because of this, there are Haunters in the world which didn't find their genesis with the Banshee Haunter. Haunters are ethereal creatures which deal no damage, but distract, harass, and are general nuisances. They take no damage and are generally only destroyed or removed by cleansing or warding spells or 72 hours of uninterrupted bright light. There are other ways to get rid of haunters, but none of them involve dealing damage. As long as a pc is haunted by a Haunter, that player suffers from: lowered willpower, lowered perception, lowered skill(everything). Rest provides no recovery. There is a small chance during combat that a player who hasn't slept for more than 2 days becomes insane. (So you'd have exhaustion, insanity, lowered willpower/perception/skill. How's that for a mid range threat?)

I'm not a fan of undead, They bore me as a trope. uninspired trashmobs, unoriginal to the extreme, and they make no sense. Reanimated corpses? How are they a threat? how about you walk away? How do they survive without rotting to pieces? Are the bacteria which eat of it also infected? Zombies make no sense. pff. But since they're going to be in, I'm going to see if I can satisfy you guys by making a few in the monster thread. Mid range monsters. And you should focus on what makes them different. I think I have an idea

anachronistic simply means "out of time" (IE does not belong in this time period) If there alternative reasons why something would exist in that time period, it wouldn't be anachronistic. I don't disagree btw.

harp is beautiful, I hope to hear lots of it.

I think most people use Diablo because they know 98% of the gaming population will know the reference. Diablo was the first dungeon crawler marketed as an RPG. I blame blizzard for the widespread misunderstanding of what "RPG elements" are. Hint: it's not levelling up abilities and skills. Hint2: The key is in the name, ROLE PLAYING game. anyway, pet peeves aside. I'd like a dungeon where the top levels (1-3) are fairly generic then from 4 onwards, there is a visual narrative drawing you in. Something really curious and interesting, which isn't explicitly mentioned, but beckons you on. (what is it I hear lurking in the deep? What is this device which seems to snake itself through several dungeon levels? Why are groups of creatures held up around its outcrops?) around level 10 that should be mostly resolved. By then, however you are presented with a new mystery flowing forth from the previous. level 15 could hint that there might be more of this elsewhere in the world. What I think is important, and something that in my experience isn't done right, is pacing. I want tense combat, sure, but I don't want tense combat followed up by tense combat, with a dollop of even more tense combat, maybe interspersed with traps... and combat. I want to have time for wonder. Meaning alcoves with pretty caves, a hot spring where you can rest nearby, underground garden with bioluminescent plants, a pond with bioluminescent fish, an underground library with undecipherable arcane writings, a thriving underground culture near level 3. Stuff like that. Intersperse these and I will hold out much longer than I usually do. Often I get filled with dread doing dungeons, because, oh great, another wave of enemies. For me that's decidedly not fun. so TL;DR: Pacing Visual Narrative Mystery Blizzard ruined the term RPG with Diablo.

I thought you did care about semantics, what with the discussion earlier you made quite an effort to make sure that everyone was speaking from the same vocabulary, no? Anyway I too, would find it strange to see space age technology in stone age tribes. It either be magic, precursor tech, a "donation" from a culture far away around which the entire plot revolves, but there would have to be an explanation. Of course with fantasy "magic" is one of those blanket excuses for everything. That said, I'm not opposed to seeing space age technology in stone age tribes, just tread carefully. but game balance mechanics wise and narratively.

I hate micromanaging spellcasters. I hope I can queue up some orders, I'm also hoping there will be a possibility for at least some automation like you had with Dragon Age's AI slots. (one of the few positive aspects of that game)

Q1. I would not be upset with different amounts of attributes, within reason. Q2. Yes, that seems a decent way to do it. Q3. I'd like both to be affected by different attributes, with perhaps some overlap. multiple paths to victory! Q4. Not entirely. I'd like there to be an attribute which has an effect on deflection. Q5. Depends, if there is a speed attribute, then certainly. Q6. Yes and no. Attributes should affect it to some degree, but there should be alternatives to expanding your inventory space. (like traits)

oh sorry. well my point still stands.

on the primejunta/kveldulf pissing contest... I don't mind anachronisms in fantasy fiction very much because it is a fantasy setting. We can say PoE is inspired by the early colonial era on earth, but it's important to remember that it *ISN'T* because it's a fiction and exists in a different universe. I'm actually perfectly OK with, and encourage game developers to take some risks on their game world. Yes, you can be inspired by, have the flavour of some interesting settings in our history, which admittedly is going to be the only source of inspiration, since it's the only thing we've experienced. However, many natural experiments in Cultural Anthropology are showing us that history does not unfold identically everywhere. From this I take that any setting can be wildly different from its real world counterpart. As both of you stated, it is more important whether this is believable within the game world, whether or not it is internally consistent. Provided the world offers explanation for the appearance of any technology, it has to be satisfying to fit in there. One way to deal with that is to make it as much like the real world as we know, another is to completely abandon this and go full-on fantasy. I imagine the right balance is somewhere in the middle. It's not relevant that Kveldulf had the wrong name for a time period, since it was not the name that was at the core of his argument. That said, once presented with new information, Kveldulf explained his definition of colonial era and with that tried to explain what he meant. Primejunta is correct about the details, and it's certainly important to have agreement on the meaning of the words and terms you use. This confusion is not helpful, especially since it's distracting from the argument you're trying to make. I like the concept of guns in PoE, I like their in-world explanation, I think it both respects the simulationist camp and the fantasy camp. having these guns be "early" adaptations allows them to be balanced along with your stock fantasy arsenal, without any weapon type being clearly superior to others. I hope to find quite a bit of clearly otherworldly items, organisations, concepts, ideas, along with a way to quantify and reason their existence in this setting. On the flip side, I hope to see quite a bit of familiar historically inspired organisations, people, items, concepts and ideas as well. Best of both worlds, how could that possibly fail?

I tend to play variations of one character only. Depending on what godlike traits are available I may or may not be a godlike character, but I most certainly will play a female human rogue who specializes in social skills and intelligence, dagger mastery, dual wielding, and debuffing.

Jimmy Savile

Bloated from a delicious and Dickensian dinner, I wish all of you a Merry Christmas! Or whatever holiday you choose to celebrate.