IndiraLightfoot

A great idea, and you touch upon a solution for those of us who want repairs and item condition in the game to matter a bit at least. Via the suppliers that you've buttered up like a biscuit, you can get a small edge in sharper weapons or even more sturdy armour. Your idea on weapon swapping is certainly fair enough, although I just feel so many CRPGS allow you to be bag ladies if a sort. With those inventories I'm surprised we don't see trollies or rather wagons that get dragged along with our beloved pcs. That's why I have high hopes for the top of the pack-idea. Equipment degradation: Lephys, you really shine here! Temporary abstract armour and weapon degradation like a RPG-debuff is a great and flexible idea that can be fine-tuned easily. And best of all this is an answer to my concern about too long combat, since these debuffs on armour and weapons will soon occur in melee, and that would speed up the outcome of the encounter - especially in higher levels! And I think it should be coupled with your automagical repair in-between encounters! Both sounds great. Also, if we couple your honing/improvements-idea with Rjshae's suppier ideas, we'd have a rather solid and fun system, methinks. We're getting somewhere, folks! P.S. Rust monsters were fun encounters in PnP D&D. The parties just went bananas every time, hehe!

LadyCrimson, like several others in this thread, you emphasize the risk of armor deterioration getting annoying, and you also underline the same annoyance that comes with a tiny inventory. I humbly acknowledge that it would probably annoy more than it would make for enjoyable gameplay, which always must come first, me reckon. The only way to have item degradation in is in an abstract and temprorary format that only punishes you while in combat. Finally, yea, I do what you do in other games with weapon swapping. If it doesn't feel right, I just refrain from doing it. Hehe, Tsuga, I really do think you speak for the majority here! (I almost feel like a RPG masochist, lol)

Good points, Curryinahurry! For low levels, I suspect your right: As long as we don't stand there fanning a rat with a dagger of ours (my latest start at BGEE, it took ages to make a bleedin rat go belly-up), I'm content. For intermediate levels and higher: It will be the true test of the system. I mean in BG2, if you did not have a magic user with you that shielded against certain spells or removed barriers, you were almost done for. While fun in the beginning, it soon forced you into make a certain party. With 3rd ed D&D, and especially 3.5, much of that was gone. I could make a myriad of different characters valid beyond level 20, and it was great fun. I loved it! I'm talking here about computer-adapted 3.5 D&D, but that goes without saying. One of the few things that were bad was the whittling away for minutes on end, and somehow I think the key could lie in the stamina factor or perhaps some dire effects following crits, perhaps?

Perhaps the character that I've hated the most in all CRPGs is in fact in NWN2 (which I adore, perhaps fitting, hey? ): Zhjaeve - a name hard to spell and a character that starts every sentence with "Know that...". She got me juices going, the wrong, toxic ones. I became like Agatha Christie-villains, plotting her death in clever and subtle ways. And yes, Khelgar is untouchable, Scottish accent or no!

Okay, so to sum up: -We seem to be in agreement that frequent item swapping with no penalties is not desirable at all -Perhaps item swapping should be rare, and no MMO-switching systems appears to be welcome -Armour deterioration/wear is not a very popular idea That leaves one issue for me, though: How to avoid Punch and Judy fests that never seem to end? This is not me saying I want melee to be over after a few hits, it's me saying I'd love to see a clever system where tactics count so much that after awhile you begin to take critical damage fast, or perhaps bleeding accelerates, fire takes hold, electrocution sets in, etc. EDIT: I just saw Nunek's post: If healing potions are in, they should be very/extremely rare and really get you up and running again (which sounds a bit like an ability that is planned for PE's paladin). If you find a potion you would be wise to hold on to it and give it to a character that might have good use for it when caught between a rock and a hard place. Although my idea in this thread, if armor deterioration is perceived as boring and repairs a chore, OEI is better off scrapping it for all difficulty levels. I'd much rather have a good combat system with damage and armour worked out to the very best of systems.

Hehe, and here I was thinking I've played most RPGs the last decades, and thought it was really sleek. I mean, you saw the degree of wear by number and by graphics (a bar). You basically took stuff and clicked twice and then you had repaired the item a bit. Rinse and repeat. It became second nature, and since you'll have to check the map, swap ammo and take some drugs or stimpaks now and then anyways, you are already there in the invo all the time. Heck, in my last playthru now I even gladly kill those repair peeps. I don't need to pay them anything, repairs work like a charm anyways. I think the Pipboy was user-friendly too, as I've posted a topic about earlier, one of the best in fact. But then again, I like those inventory lists as opposed to icon-based inventories. And I do realise that there are lots of people who simply hate repair systems altogether, and that's fine. It's not that I love them or anything. In this case, I want it in the opposite end of the business end of combat: armor deterioration. Hopefully, it could make combat interesting and more urgent.

Ginsu23: Welcome to the forums! As for repairing gear, I certainly see where you're coming from. I mean Diablo 3, for instance, had an awful item repair system that felt like regulatory taxes. A good repair system should'nt feel like a boring chore. If you've played Fallout New Vegas, you know that repairs can be something easy and intuitive (however, there you can do it in-combat, and that is perhaps my main point: you shouldn't be able to do extreme item swappings in the fray of battle). Your ideas of limitations to item swapping are good and reasonable: a few slots for weapon swapping (a few classes can have more weapons, wand or what not there. And I, too, really like the "top of the pack" idea. Armour swapping should simply be prohibited, and for me, that should include belts, but certain sashes could perhaps be swapped? And yea, some powerful spell could perhaps not only summon an armour, but equip it as well. Bags of holding are neat wonders I'd love to see make a come back. Nice thinking there. I just fear that item swapping can become a major player in the very experience of combat, and that I think is over the top - the system eating up adventurous RPG melee. Finally, my basic idea is: Since stamina is in, and thus exhaustion, I think challenging combat doesn't have to be dummies smacking each other til some hp sum finally dropped to 0 after several minutes, and a key to that I think lies in the way we regard armour and damage tolerance. Just like the characters and the critters have stamina and get exhausted, so should armour, but never in a boring, too time-consuming and "Is this a job?"-kind of way. And Rjshae: Too short combat would make for poor tactics, so yeah, it still has to tick quite a number of sec on the clock.

Having read update #39 and several other topics on combat, I have a few concerns that have grown on me. 1) The very combat experience itself Will there be lots of glances and chipping away at opponents in PE? And in what regard is that an improvement from all the misses in BG/IWD/NWN1-2? It seems like it, and perhaps this isn't rectified by the systems proposed. In NWN2, especially at higher levels, you could get into long, long fights where neither you nor the opponent(s) managed to finsih the other one off. Especially cleric builds I rolled could get into almost funny situations. Do we want re-runs of that kind of combat? And another thing that sorta confuses me: Surely, the combat experience must almost per definition become something very similar to turn-based and with lots of pauses being activated. I mean, all the party-based RPGs just mentioned, which PE builds upon (that's why many of us are excited, after all), has combat that plays out that way. So. basically, if you opt to have a party you will have a six-, five-, four-, or whatever-headed chimera with quite different heads, a hydra that has all sorts of combat abilities, spells and defenses at its disposal, so combat will be a matter of approaching the enemies with your heads positioned wisely and in a classic manner: tank pawns, protecting vulnerable casters and intermediary clerics and thieves doing their bits of high one-on-one damage or some CC or healing. I have no trouble this being so, but several comments seem to be discussing combat with single-player RPGs in mind, and I'm not sure how much their combat systems apply here, that's all. 2) Item swapping becoming the name of the game Many RPGs allow for a lot of item swapping during encounters and combat. Often it's rather absurd. Then again, so are the overly generous inventories with loads of potions and what not expendables, extra weapons and extra armour. Often we do get to change them in-combat! Then soon there will appear tactics that seem very far off from the setting of the game: In Diablo 3, people swapped out all armour for Magic Find and Gold Find armour in order to cash in from dying opponents. In my world, item swapping should be rare and have reasons that make you break out from the character you've made. Your barbarian with her beloved double axe will drop it and use a silver dagger when confronted with a pack of werewolves. It shouldn't be part of some mini-game of combat floating on top of the adventurous characters in the encounter. Ideally, combat should feel in tune with your party and the characters various roles in it. The combat system should never be more central than the pc and her/his companions. That is one reason why Diablo 3 feels so arcade-gamey - it is in fact no RPG at all. And for PE I'm dying for a RPG! My sketch of some sort of solution: -Let stamina exhaust your characters and the enenmies after a few "rounds" in combat, making them weaker, tired and ready for painful mistakes or just flight -Let the first couple of rounds of hits take its toll on armour, and that a lot! Like Runequest, give the various body-protecting parts of armour (natural and artifical armour) appropriate absorption values, and when these values are superceded, let huge damage begin to roll in. Bludgeoning and slashing attacks that hit should wear armour down fast (and after an encounter you need to patch armour up - there canl be skills and perks for this), while piercing as a damage type doesn't as much. Same goes for elemental damage and energy damage of certain kinds. Other attacks simply by-pass armour completely The advantages are several: -no more deadlock melee - faster and more urgent combat - decently deep tactics such as positioning and choices of spells really matter, the first "rounds" will be critical - and if there will be some kind of "initiative", encounter speed, or at least different speeds of weapons and spells, the tactics will grow even more complex -few opportunities for potion swigging and lame item swapping The drawbacks: -This will only work if pause is used frequently and for each character's move -There won't be an arcade game flow to melee like say Diablo 3, more something like VATS in FNV and Runequest's system of armour absorption, weapon type choices and aiming at body parts. This is just me thinking aloud, and the ideas haven't really coagulated yet. Do you share my concerns? And what would your solutions be to avoid combat that just seems to be swish-swashing and going on forever, and where item swapping and inventory rummaging occur on a far too regular basis?

I'm somewhere in the middle on this. Clearly there are circumstances where it makes sense to swap weapons, such as when you're facing skeletons and you're armed with an estoc, or when you're up against a boss monster and you need every advantage in order to win. But most of the time (~80%) I'd rather it be a secondary factor, compared to sound tactics. A muscular barbarian wielding a great axe should be able to hack down most foes, even when they are protected by the right armor vs. slashing weapons. I like Josh's overall thinking about the combat mechanics, but most of the time I want to be able to muddle through with decent weapons. ^This is cannot be underlined enough: Predictable game play must take precendence over systemic claims of realism. Say what you will about pre-4th ed D&D's AC, HP and Armor, but the outcomes of the system were rather predictable: Difficult bosses, lots of misses and rare critical hits, medium baddies, hits and some misses with a number of crits, and easy opponents, almost guarnteed hits and one-shotting them with plenty of crits was the norm if you're say a lvl 10 fighter thrashing thru a bunch of kobolds. Weapon swapping is interesting, but it should neber become a meta-gamey gimmick that you start to associate with PE's combat. Then PE's combat system is done for. In some MMOs, like GW2, for instance, you unlock weapon swapping at lvl 7 and then there's a 10 sec cooldown on it. Still lots of builds revolve around it. Here's a weird thought right off the bat: What if we could use armor absorption, a bit like RQ instead, and perhaps a bit of linb picking, like VATS in New Vegas? At least this would work for the damage types bludgeoning and slashing. So when an armour takes a few hard blows it's done for. You can repair it (reasonably), but after the fight. This would of course affect combat a lot, making the first exchanges of blows more critical. I'm no number cruncher as far as damage systems go, but it would be interesting. Then your health and stamina really would matter.

PST: None (bit of a shocker,coz the game is great, but as somebody wrote, they are so extreme in that unique and weird plane. And Morte appealed more to my teeange me, than now) NWN1: Deekin (for his genuine, nice style and kind and cute demeanour) BG1&2: Jaheira (I usually like nice and decent NPCs, it is clearly a trend), but honourable mentions to Viconia and Tiax. NWN2: Sand, Khelgar (He was almost comforting, like a father figure who was a bit of a hothead in bars, or a Brian Blessed-style char) and Shandra (First I disliked here, but soon I realized she reacted like a sensible person would do in a world of weird violations) NWN2 MotB: Kaelyn the Dove (the voice and the company and her discussions), Gannayev (a very credible and deep persona) and Safiya (again, nice and thoughtful). Well, I love the rest too. And I mean, a bear-god and a mass of corrupted souls as NPCs is just classic. I really hope Obsidian live up to that standard again. KOTOR2: Mira.

Falkon: I'm no fan of crafting by any means, but if it should be implemented, this is the way to go! And make the things crafted rare, not just something resembling an artisan chipping away at some workbench. What I really like about this system is that each player of PE would more or less gets a unique crafted item (it could work for several kinds of items: weapon, armour, ring, etc) and that circumstance alone, I think, would add so much value to the appreciation of it. Imagine our sharing one another's crafted rarities and talk about them, even here on the forums. It would be fun and sometimes worthy of bragging rights or lamentation of one's bad luck. I really hope OEI dares venture into this fuzzy random crafting territory. It sounds much more fun than a few recipes and the same outcome every time. A disclaimer: It shouldn't be done like in DIablo 3, where the great majority of crafted items were junk. Make it so that each crafted item truly is a marvel, but still a unique marvel to behold.

A. Backer, you rock! And good on you, Obsids!

An extremely bloody, violent and gun-slinging re-run of FNV. I'm afraid I've turned it into Borderlands. All the quests go down the drain along with the factions. The very fact that you can do it is a big plus in my book.

I'm not a big fan of the DOTA/LoL-genre, so no. And I reckon it would ruin the mood of PE as I'd like to envision it: A rather mature RPG with atmosphere in spades. I think Obsidian can really make PE shine in making it a gritty thick-description universe, so to speak. Jivex5k is right, that's the kind of minigames to be expected. Just swap out the word "dice" with "knuckles" and add a fortune teller, and you're home! Fallout New Vegas has loads of it, and even Bioware's NWN1 had some gambling in an inn in the final expansion IIRC, on another plane and all.

How very true! This is almost never implemented in CRPGs anymore (if ever), and these games tend to be text-heavy. It would increase the longevity of the game as well as be a welcome addition to it for heaps of middle-aged players or players with eyesight problems.

For any D&D buff, EP brings back sweet memories. Up until 3rd ed D&D it was a coin: Electrum Piece. Two EPs was one GP - Gold Piece.

Josh: As for marking enemies and allies. Instead of those red and green circles or what not, is it not possible to use some highlight-function similar to the Z-key in NWN2, but obviously just highlighting your party or the enemy group? As long as it doesn't become anything like that weird glow you saw on enemies in Diablo 3, it was pretty weird and glaring. Just a highlight, that's all.

Yay, hope springs eternal! Perhaps there will be genuine chants in PE if we get lucky, all thanks to this contact with good Friar Godfrey.

Some thieves' cant would be cool, complete with signs and all. And for some reason I have a secret desire of OE including Commedia dell'arte theatre folks, where women too could perform, and mime artists began to appear. I have always liked to assassinate a mime artist in a CRPG, that would be marvellous! EDIT: It should have been "Thou", but you're right. It sounds contrived even on a stage. And there's that song: Calleth you, cometh I, which also gets the Middle English wrong. Grrrrr!

I read that the boy is in fact the son of Swansea's club manager, and before the game the little **** said he was going to stall big time. Opinions of him in the UK are turning sour.

Hmm, weird, it seems impossible to buy Mysteries of Westgate as a standalone product at GOG.

AGX-17: I wish, I wish! But let's say I just like to have some very light version of a simulator that emulated a bit of the feel of going down that uber-long interstate, I'd be quite happy. And yes, it would've been better if I wrote "RPG-elements".

I think NWN1 with expansions was alright. I actually liked the 1st expansion better than the Underdark and that plane trip. However, it's no secret I'm a big fan of NWN2: I mean, the camera was wonky and the bugs were many in the beginning, but I truly loved much of the campaign itself and the characters. I've played the OC like 20 times, easy. I know, it's crazy, but I am a big fan of D&D too, so it was no chore, just pure fun. Sometimes the combat was way too easy and a clickfest, and many areas felt empty and rushed, but it was the companions and the feel to it which I loved (thanks, OEI!). Well, and then came MotB, and it was love at first sight. Everything about it was great. It was like Planescape torment, a more mature take on NWN2, and the companions were outstanding. Kaelyn the Dove was my favourite. Being a part of the modding community there myself, I can say that it was the best I've been in. Those forums were fantastic, so many great and helpful people there, I made many friends there. Some of them were NWN1 veterans, but many were new to modding back then, like I was. Try some mods out: They are fewer than NWN1's, but many of them are really very good.

Hi, folks! Well, I got to see a fun Youtube video of a guy playing a truck sim/truck company game called "Euro Truck Simulator 2", and since it just came out on Steam, I bought it just for the heck of it. Now, that was quite a big leap of faith: I'm no trucker fan, not even a car lover. I prefer bikes anyday. I also got a friend to buy it, and it turns out to be a much more enjoyable experience than I ever would have thought! The simulator part you can regulate, so you can, like I do drive the truck semi-realistically with manual gearbox and put a satnav on the dashboard and all, but you can make it much easier for yourself too (as well as harder). Then you get a number of countries in Europe rather realistically plotted out in a road map format. At first you pick up jobs for bigger companies delivering various goods, but soon you can rig a loan at a bank and buy your own truck, which you can be custom-made and modded to quite an extent for money and so, but for that you need more xp, and yes it's like a RPG with levels and perks and points in everything from ecodriving to longdistance-endurance. I don't know what to say, but it's a perfectly relaxing game. You chill out, drive at night, perhaps its raining, you get to make playlists with your favourite music on, just like I loved doing mix tapes in the 80s. It's the perfect take-a-break game, it's so unexpected that I would like a gem like this. I played Flight Simulator in the 90s but got bored to tears. And here's an idea for Obsidian: I know you have bikers among you. Please make a RPG Biker USA simulator, where you can drive around your beautiful country. Now I know I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Agreed. I've actually reworked a mod from single player to multiplayer co-op, it isn't that hard, so I don't think that his request/goal in that department qualifies him for any troll label.