Hiro Protagonist II

I do understand the difference. However, why don't you explain it to me considering it was you who said the IE games were turn based despite the contrary and the definitions on the inXile website.

Definitions are pretty clear to me. They even list the IE games under RTwP.

It's not about the engine. It's how you play the game. Rhetorical question. What is the default setting of the IE games? Turn-based or RTwP? Answer: RTwP.

They're RTwP games. Just because something is in the engine doesn't make it a turn based game.

No, all the classic IE games and Planescape Torment are RTwP. They are not turn-based. So you don't know the difference and thought the previous games were turn-based? And therefore voted turn-based? wow.

If anyone has missed it, the Project Eternity logo has been removed from the Obsidian forums.

Probably Terrorists trying to make money from piracy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTMIz0_Iij8 Yeah, I don't really believe it either. Just cheap scumbags trying to make a quick buck.

Not really concerned if we don't get it with Project Eternity. It was never promised or updated later if PE backers would get it. And it's on gog anyway if you want it. At any rate, I've already received my Wasteland 1 key with my Wasteland 2 pledge. Will have to look into my Torment pledge.

One of the main reasons I love the IE games is because of the isometric view. And it wasn't because we simply tolerated it at the time.

Most powergaming party I can create.

You don't seem to be sorry. Shouldn't say sorry when you don't mean it. And resorting to personal attacks and name calling. tsk tsk. Why are you bringing up transport companies? We're talking about a distribution centre that Obsidian will use. This has nothing to do with UPS or any other transport company. It has to be distributed to the transport company first. If you have a box copy going to the Netherlands today, you don't keep that boxed game in your warehouse for a week for another boxed copy to go to the Netherlands. You have UPS pick up all your copies for that day, say a hundred boxes going to different destinations inlcuding the one that goes to the Netherlands. Then UPS will take them back to their hub and distribute accrodingly. Tomorrow you have another 100 boxed copies to pick up by UPS and one of those copies could be going to the Netherlands as well. Meanwhile, yesterdays pickups have gone, goods consolidated with other importers/exporters goods, flights have left and the second boxed copy going to the Netherlands will have to catch the next flight. This is normal practice with freight companies and airlines. The postage by UPS with having one copy go to the Netherlands today and another copy go two days later on a different flight is the same cost as both going at the same time. The distributor or Obsidian doesn't get a discount if both leave at the same time by UPS. You want to know why? Because there's two different consignees. That's why. And any discounts the distributor gets which they would is worked out differently. Just like you or I going to UPS and sending two packages at the same time to the same country but for different people. We don't get a discount because we're now sending two packages instead of one. UPS doesn't say, 'oh wow, lucky you have that second package and I can give you a 10% discount!'. It's not condescending or mocking. You show a lack of basic understanding with freight companies and how they work. Even when I explain it to you, you won't accept it. Here we go. The usual over the top hypothetical with cavemen and not attaching labels. Where did this come from? I didn't say anything of the sort. I'm using knowledge and experience on how distribution centres work. How transport companies work. Not some hypothetical that doesn't have any substance. Just you. Getting touchy? Because you are. No. So now 'general area' is it now? Not a 'specfiic' country like your Netherlands example? Nice back track but caught out. Yes and No. Look at my answer to your 'specific' Netherlands example. I did tell you that's wrong and for some reason you seem to be taking it personally. Maybe save your paragraphs and your incorrect hypotheticals for some other time.

I know because I've worked in the Customs, Freight, Logistics industry for the last 20 years. I deal with Importers, Exporters, Production/Manufacturing companies, Customs, Quarantine, Transport, Distributors, Logistics, Airlines, Shipping companies on a weekly basis. And what you're saying isn't correct. It doesn't help your argument when you make up assumptions and hypotheticals which have no basis in reality. A little over 10,000 boxed copies will have to be sent to backers. You're suggesting that Obsidian's distributor will break down those 10K+ orders by country and then do each country individually? Which countries do they do first? Do they start in alphabetical order? It wont work that way. Well of course they know it's going to cost extra to ship the goods internationally. It won't cover the costs for certain destinations. The extra charge will offset some of the costs for international shipping for some destinations. If you don't know the specfics, then why do you turn around and then go on about specifics? Specifics you don't know anything about. As I said, every boxed copy to destinations like Australia (excluding the high tiers) would be making a loss on the postage. The destinations that are losing money will be subsidised by those that are making money. So overall, Obsidian will most likely make money but this is just a guess. Nobody knows (except for Obsidian) what the percentage of international orders there are. And there's no reason to exclude 20 or 30 overseas countries because they're a loss making exercise while Obsidian ship to the over 100+ countries where they make a profit on postage. It's also a cash flow thing as well to offer international postage. Obsidian gets money from the Kickstarter which includes postage for international orders. They don't have to pay any postage until the game ships, even if it makes a loss on postage with some of those games. That's an extra amount of money they have for 18 months. However, there's also the distributors costs and everything else that goes into the box. So Obsidian wouldn't even have a true cost of what it will cost to distribute these games when the Kickstarter started because they didn't have a distributor at the start. Even inXile has only acquired a distributor recently. I put it down to either looking at what other companies like InXile are doing and a best guess. Thinking about it and knowing what to do are two different things. And well, yes this is their first rodeo being their first kickstarter. They'll be looking at things they did right and things they did wrong. And you're making comments with knowledge you currently possess? More like making guesses with no knowledge on how freight companies and distributors work.

You could try Magix Music Maker. http://www.magix.com/au/music-maker/

Did you even read what I wrote? $20 will not cover the cost of postage to countries like Australia, especially if they're using companies like FedEx/DHL/UPS to track the orders. So why would Obsidian go back to a boxed copy when they'll be losing money on a lot of those international orders? For some reason, you think $20 will cover every destination in the world. Just go down to your local post office with a boxed game inside another bigger box and ask how much this would cost to go to Australia, Sweden, UK, South Africa, France, Germany, Russia, etc and you'll get a whole range of costs and some destinations will be over $20. If I were to buy items from one supplier in the States and they charge a standard $25 fee for international orders, it appears this is covering the cost of postage. It's not in a lot of cases. Looking up the amount they pay to say FedEx which is around $30-45 depending on the chargeable weight, they lose money on the postage to Australia which eats into their profits. I've seen costs paid to companies like FedEx around the $75 mark but they're charging me $25.00. International orders will either lose or make money. The destinations that are losing money will be subsidised by those that are making money. Why would you add more orders that will more than likely lose money when you have an alternative that eliminates the postage cost altogether and is guaranteed to make money? This is the reason why you don't go back and put up boxed copies again.

It's clear some people have never worked or have first hand knowledge with a business in a managerial, logistics, production or supply capacity. As I said, businesses work differently and as an employee you often wonder why things are done the way they are. Why can't they do this? Why can't they do that? Why can't we throw in a couple of hundred more boxed copies? When you're in a managerial position, you understand the other side of how things actually work. Your standard publisher has distributors worldwide. They have business agreements, trade discounts, and other things in place to keep costs down. Those distributors have discounts with transport companies, freight forwarders and airlines. If someone in Australia buys a boxed copy of a Blizzard or Bethesda game, it doesn't come from America. It usually comes from Singapore or some other country close by. Obsidian is not a publisher, they don't have distributors worldwide. They don't have the ability to keep costs down to those levels like the normal publishers do. Every boxed game from Obsidian has to be sent worldwide from America. So all the aussies will be getting our games from America, not Singapore. So that means nearly every game (excluding the high tiers eg.$250+) sent to Australia has just made a loss for Obsidian on postage. And not including all the other countries where they'll be making a loss on the postage. That means the postage costs will eat into the profits of the boxed copy itself. At the moment, it's better for a company to go down the digitial distribution route now even before the first box is printed. When you're selling a game here on in, production costs are still going up, your biggest profit margin will be from the digitial downloads because the costs will be minimal compared to the stuff that comes with a box and postage. Straight away you've eliminated the postage altogether with a digital download. You can also tweak the price of the digital download on a whim. eg. Put up a special a week before the games is released (say $1 or $2 off) and get more sales. You can't do that with a boxed copy.

It doesn't work like that. It's not how businesses are run. As I said before, if the printers and associated contractors are making 10,000 boxed copies of the game there's a fixed cost to that which Obsidian will have allocated funds to. To print another individual 100 copies (and all the associated stuff to go with it) is not the same individual cost as the first individual 10,000. It would be more for those extra copies. I know it might not make much sense and clearly by some posts in this thread it doesn't make sense, however the more you add to the initial run the more it costs for those additional orders as well as all the orders overall, even if the printers haven't started yet. Which translates to less money for Obsidian, because more costs are added. I know it's not something you want to hear. The business reality is a business like Obsidian wouldn't want to go back to making additional boxed copies. It's also why you don't see companies like Blizzard, Bethesda, etc going back to the printers and making more Collectors Editions, even though they could and people would buy them. It adds more costs to the business. Businesses like Obsidian would be looking to reducing costs and one way to do that is through Digital downloads. The profit for additional boxed copies would be so small that it probably wouldn't even make a profit at all for Obsidian, regardless if you prepaid the $80 or whatever money. As Stun said, your best bet is ebay.

Well, more than 85% of the backers on the Kickstarter page took the digitial download route. So it seems there isn't a high demand for the boxed game. I would've thought Obsidian would be looking at lowering costs since the game has been in production for some time. Digital downloads would be the way to go. Not going back to printing boxes, discs and manuals. When Obsidian puts up their fullfilment site, they might have an option to upgrade your pledge to a boxed version. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't have that option due to business reasons. It's not a case of printing an extra 100 boxes or printing off an extra 100 discs and manuals, there's a lot more to the business and logistical side of things than the printers saying, 'no worries, we can print off another 100 since we're already printing 10,000'. I could be wrong though and Obsidian may decide to reverse their decision and put in the option to upgrade to boxed versions. We'll just have to wait and see. From a business standpoint, you would be encouraging customers to go for the digital download.

There's also costs of finding a warehouse and storing the boxed games. Then paying someone to fill out orders. A new employee or existing employee? If it's an existing employee, then that takes the employee away from what they're supposed to do. Which employee has to do this? A programmer? Well I was programming for this game but instead I'm posting this game to someone in New Zealand. :/ And there's going to be different postage costs for different destinations. A programmer has to find out what the postage costs are going to be? Ring courier companies for quotes? The employee organising a courier (FedEx/DHL/UPS) to pick up the game from the warehouse. Organising someone at the warehouse to put the game in a FedEx or UPS box and say that a courier will be in to pick up the game? Paying someone at the warehouse to do all this. Even using Obsidian's premises, they probably wouldn't have the office space to have a couple of hundred games put aside. It's be a waste of office space, time and resources to stack these games in a store room. After the game is picked up, having to update details on the fullfilment site with tracking number. It's a lot of time, money and effort when it's easier for the customer to download it from GOG/Steam. And it's not even the programmers job to do this. Give it to the receptionist? Receptionist has to find out postage costs and organising everything above? Too hard. As I said, I don't think you realise the work involved to have spare boxed copies put aside. I doubt Obsidian would be making much money from the physical goods. The majority of the profit will be coming from downloads and this will have to fund the expansion as well when it's released for those backers who backed at those tiers. In a round about sort of way, that's what the Kickstarter was for. To order the boxed copy.

I disagree. Obsidian would lose money by putting boxed copies in stores. While it would be ideal to see it in stores, the commercial realities is it won't happen. I don't think you realise the costs involved to put these in stores. We're talking about a niche market for physical stores where a shift for PC gaming has gone from physical goods to downloads. You only have to see the Kickstarter page where more than 85% of backers went for a Digitial Tier over a Physical copy of the game. And the range of PC games in stores to see it's shrunk over the years with the increase in sales from digitial downloads with GOG/Steam and other sites that sell game keys. The reality is most PC gamers want digital downloads and a very small niche market of PC gamers want physical goods. Then you have a niche game vying for shelf space with AAA titles. Which one is the average gamer likely to buy when they enter a store? The AAA title that's had huge marketing, or the niche title that's had very little marketing and looks like an old IE game from 15 years ago? And a store owner is going to want to buy games that sell lots. Order a hundred copies of Batman Arkham Origins or Battlefield 4? Yes, please. Not order a game where they might sell one or two, and if it doesn't sell having to discount it. As far as bad internet connections. Users with Steam and GOG seem to buy games despite their internet connections. Boxed copies seem to be for collectors these days of which I am one. I'll always buy the boxed game over the download every single time, but I know the reality and I'm in a very small minority of PC gamers that buy boxed games. As an example, I only have 6 games on Steam, which are for boxed games that have forced me to use Steam.

I doubt Obsidian will do boxed copies outside of the Kickstarter. Costs too much money. Easier to distribute the game via GOG/Steam.

What you're describing is a weapon with enchantments, something that some posters don't want. Some people don't want enchantments at all. We've seen stuff like this in the IE games. Items like Balduran's butter knife which I always sell because I prefer a knife with an enchantment that is useful in the game for characters like my Mages.

I don't see the point. Why would you keep a legendary sword that is just the same as a normal mundane sword without any enchantments? Especially when a regular +2 sword is much better in battle. I'll take the +2 item over a mundane legendary item without enchantments any day.

Thanks Adam! I'm extremely satisfied with how everything's going. Will watch for the updates as they come. Sounds like good times ahead.

From the top of my head... How are the following things going, still in progress, ahh that's on a white board out the back and must get to it, oh yeah need to get around to doing that, etc ... 1. Demo of the game / vertical slice. 2. Fulfilment website 3. Forums badges 4. Name and design an Item, NPC, enemy adventuring party, inn, etc for backers who are at this tier level. (I believe the inn backers have been contacted). Or is this connected with the fullfilment site 5. Memorial stone in game 6. How the physical goods are coming along: Cloth map, patch, hardcover book, t-shirt, playing cards, etc. Any success in obtaining suppliers, using the same supplier as InXile. 7. Linux and Mac versions and how they're going. Challenges, successes, etc 8. An Audio update 9. How are the novellas going with MCA 10. Tim's cooking book No pressure at all. The only thing I'm really hanging out for is Tim's cooking book. Everything else is meh.

I don't have a problem with Rogues doing more damage that Fighters. You'll probably find the Rogues will have less hit points and are more squishy than Fighters. Seems to work well in pnp D&D and should work well in P:E.