Longknife

I also have to say that I think it would've perhaps been a better idea that would please both parties if the limerick were left as it was, then as a show of good faith and to show this isn't about transphobia, plan a transgender character for the next title or expansion or DLC. It'd be quite easy to do with Pillars, for example. Say someone had an awakening where they realized they were the other gender in a past life, and say a successful animancy experiment transferred their soul into a body with the opposite gender. Proceed by treating the character respectfully as Obsidian is well within their capabilities of doing so. Boom, problem solved.

I just think a little more communication from Obsidian now would do worlds to calm this stuff down.

On the other hand, it's also a matter of good luck disproving suspicions at this point. The complaint was filtered directly through Katherine Cross and Ian Miles Cheong before it reached Sawyer, who responded to Cheong within a day. Both Cross and Cheong oppose Gamergate and are a part of the group GamerGate accuses of trying to dictate the narrative and censor games. It's sort of like how do you expect to convince people it's truly their opinion when it went through those guys? Me personally it's like ok wtf Sawyer responded quickly like it wasn't a question for him so that can just as well mean he shares the sentiment, but yeah. Point is people are gonna be worked up.

Also Sawyer's cat is ****ing fat wtf?? What's he feeding that thing?

Check again. https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/582200461127634945 That's Sawyer replying to Ian Miles Cheong, an infamous journalist (journalist? That's how he's listed currently from the source that led me to this link, not sure if true, I forget) if you were to ask GamerGate and one opposed to GamerGate. I keep saying this is a GamerGate vs. SJW issue and it would be a mistake to deny that truth. I'm reading KiA right now as we speak. They're upset BECAUSE of that tweet because the tweet was not in response to the trans person who acted outraged, it's in response to one of the proponents of everything GamerGate is against and the very group GamerGate suspects to be setting the narrative for the industry. It also does not help that the trans person has a history of "kill all men" tweets while Ian Miles Cheong himself has a rather infamous history of once being an outspoken Neo-nazi....was it these forums he used to visit, RPGCodex or am I mistaken? Partially I agree with you that it could work as evidence both for- and against- Obsidian acting on their own accord. I simply also believe now is not a time where you'll get far trying to tell people "wtf you're overreacting" without trying to understand how they're interpreting it first.

Can game designers change something about their game if they want as well? Or is that not covered? This point is very true and part of the reason people should calm down. Unfortunately there's evidence to suggest it wasn't their own decision but one that caved to coercion. No definitive proof mind you, but highly suggested and a very logical conclusion, thus people are up in arms demanding answers.... I see zero evidence. Just because someone made a stink doesn't prove that it was fear of that person (a terrifying, big bad Twitter person, oh no!) that resulted in the change. The only thing that's a given is that the Twitter person brought it to their attention. It's circumstantial evidence. Don't get me wrong, never said it was evidence, merely that all signs point to and heavily suggest it's a result of pressure or maintaining company image, not one of their personal opinion. You're right, don't get me wrong, but it looks ugly in that this is exactly the kind of pressure that's been applied to game devs for months now, and also for whatever reason Obsidian chose to announce the why's of their decision after people discovered the change, rather than in advance. I wish they'd've just done it in advance, as that would've stomped out any accusations Obsidian is handling this dishonestly or in a shady way and I doubt we'd've seen this reaction....

Can game designers change something about their game if they want as well? Or is that not covered? This point is very true and part of the reason people should calm down. Unfortunately there's evidence to suggest it wasn't their own decision but one that caved to coercion. No definitive proof mind you, but highly suggested and a very logical conclusion, thus people are up in arms demanding answers....

It's a type of poem with that specific rhyme scheme he used. Limericks are the ones that are like "There once was a man from nantucket, blah blah blah blah bucket...," then two lines that don't need to rhyme, followed by the last one rhyming with the first two.

I'm not in the pic of backers who made Pillars possible. Muh feels. :C

...Isn't it Elmshore theme? I'm referring to this one: There's a slower, more dramatic version that's mostly a violin that you'll hear towards the end of the game, but I dunno it's name.

Last I checked there was no "#gamergate" prescence or interest at all in this until the SJW's (as usual I might add) decided to name their opposition "obvious GG supporters" because it's convenient to do so. I don't see how a movement that attempts to fight corruption in games journalism relates to censorship in a product - Sure there are some similarities in having a small minority dictate the order of business, but this is clearly not a "GamerGate versus SJW" issue. At the very least, it's still relevant to GamerGate symbolically. This is the exact same tone of conflict that GamerGate's been about from the start. If you didn't know, it relates because while it is about corruption, the shield that has been used by the journalists is that it's actually about gamers being sexist, misogynist, transphobic, homophobic etc, to the point where those cards get played very, VERY often. Thus, this entire discussion parallels GamerGate vs. SJW perfectly. To deny that would either be dishonest or naive, in my opinion.

BTW anyone know the name of the slower version of the theme from Anslögs compass?

I agree with this, with the addition that I do think for future reference, Obsidian could've clarified the change in advance and not after-the-fact after people discover it. The entire GamerGate stance is that Obsidian is acting cowardly and caving to a minority (minority as in a very small opinion group, not as in a group such as transgender people) complaint out of fear of how it could effect their business. This complaint would fall flat if Obsidian confidently and assertively voiced their personal stance on the matter in advance and let everyone know what changes were taking place and when. Obsidian would then be able to easily claim this was their personal choice to do that. The way they've done it unfortunately instills doubt to the point where people are making the logical conclusion (logical, though still lacking in definitive proof) that Obsidian caved to pressure and only has an interest in avoiding drama.

Dude, I play TF2 with a trans dude almost weekly. Trans people are just that: people. Of all different colors, stripes and personalities. A teen once asked if the trans guy prefers to be referred to by "he or she." The response? "I don't really care man, you can call me a dragon for all I care." Commentary to this issue? "I don't really care." IT'S ALMOST AS IF TRANSGENDER PEOPLE CAN BE REALLY LAID BACK AND EASY-GOING OR SOMETHING! I'm so sick of this stupid little argument that being a part of a group puts more value and weight into your opinion and makes you the authority on the matter. Yes, your insights are to be valued in that it shows a perspective that can exist from that group, but the reality is that there are so many people that are so diverse in this world that you can find opposing, conflicting views within any race, gender, orientation, disability - you name it. I can show you a racist black guy, I can show you a disabled guy who spends all day crying and ranting about how unfair it is to be disabled, I can show you a transgender person that's super casual about it and I can show you a gay guy that insults things by remarking "that's gay." You do not hold royal authority over what an entire group of people think. Furthermore, not once did that limerick fetish you, kill you and laugh about doing so, or even hate you. It was a joke about a guy's masculine image being shattered through his own concious actions, as far as I'm concerned; the focal point wasn't on the trans character at all. To bring up or even cite any examples of media that has treated you in the ways you describe is completely 100% irrelevant to this issue.

#NOTALLANIMANCERS

I too am sorry for blatantly reposting or linking to a post I've already made, but the thread going nuts about the limerick removal is moving too fast, and I'm an arrogant nab and do wanna be heard. My long-ass thoughts on the matter I initially posted here: GamerGate is essentially Ulysses at this point, Obsidian, and he's convinced you don't put enough thought into your actions and ready to launch a nuke. Now would be a good time to get out that 100 Speech skill and talk them down. :/

So I'm torn on the issue but I also wanna put in my input. This turned into a giant ass wall no one will probably read, but I wanna post it all the same: I'm torn because it's no secret I'm a GamerGate supporter. Yes, let's not deny the elephant in the room: this is GamerGate vs. SJWs, the same story we've heard for 8 months. (really that long now? Jesus) However, I also think that GamerGate must reflect on itself and realize that threatening Obsidian for caving makes the non-censorship side just as ridiculous and childish as those who demanded it's removal and freaked out. It's also simple fact that we do not fully know Obsidian's motivations here. We do not know if the limerick was something Obsidian overlooked while processing backer reward submissions and only later realized they take offense to it personally of their own accord, or if this is something truly sparked by the tweets. I sympathize with people's desires to put two and two together, but it's somewhat unfair to do so. This would be different if the limerick were something directly spouted from Durance or another Pillars character, making it painfully clear an Obsidian employee wrote it, but unfortunately it's skewed here. I'd urge people to calm the hell down and wait to hear Obsidian out, which is exactly what I've been doing.....not that it helps. There's an angry mob forming essentially, and any posts I've made on a certain subreddit discussing this matter just get downvoted to oblivion for even suggesting people put the pitchforks down and wait on a comment....something for which I'm quite disappointed in Gamergate aswell. But I also would be lying to myself if I denied that seeing this news hurt. I honestly wasn't expecting this, or at least to see it happen like this. If there was a change, I expected we'd see an announcement in advance and not after-the-fact. I mean the replacement limerick is quite good and I actually think this could've been LOADS less painful had an announcement simply been made upfront to highlight it's change and how that happened. I also have to reflect and realize that....New Vegas was my favorite game of all time, and New Vegas ended with one character: Ulysses. Ulysses is a man written by Obsidian employees and a character who is big on symbolism. He lambasts the Courier for not reading into his own actions enough and understanding the ramnifications they hold. He accuses the Courier of negligence, of acting before realizing what consequences his actions may have. A part of me has to reflect on that and expect the same from Obsidian. Quite frankly Obsidian, the very people who called for this thing to be removed will do you no favors. This is admittedly a bit of a situation where a group is being lumped into one instead of treated like individuals, but you do realize the very side calling for the limerick to be removed would also be the side that overall (overall being the keyword there since of course individuals will have individual opinions deviating from the norm of the group) voices support for Anita Sarkeesian....yknow, the critic who has a video up criticizing your game (Fallout New Vegas) and merely including it as cannon fodder for her "women as backround decoration" video? .....Blatantly LYING about how women in New Vegas lack depth and how there's no consequence for killing any prostititutes within the game? This is the group you just appealed to. This group (again keyword being group; not all individuals of said group would be guilty of this, but a significant margin would be) seems to wear being offended like a fashion statement, whether warranted or not. You have to ask yourselves what value you expect to come from trying to appeal to them. You think this would stave off criticism in the future? I doubt it... More importantly I just have to voice how easily it is to slowly go towards censorship when trying to appease people like this. You want an example of how easily I could draw controversy to an element of Pillars? Endulge me in the wall of text below if you would, and I can highlight EXACTLY how that can happen: You know something within Pillars of Eternity I really, REALLY don't like? That Pallegina is such a weak little nab when it comes to her being an avian godlike, being born different and looking different from others. This hits too close to home with my disability (one leg), except I was born disabled and have no shame in it. I grew up being made fun of for my disability, I grew up getting mocked, harassed or outcasted for it, because unfortunately my mother moved to a very sheltered area where I was the only physically disabled person in a town of 30,000. Everyone was more or less the same, except for me, so the little kids didn't know how to act around me and their parents didn't know any better or know how to teach them respect. I know what it's like to be different. I had to just deal with it. And I did. Hell, I'm almost happy it happened. I'd exhibited humor and a desire to refine a sense of humor since I could speak or manage a joke and before ever moving to this town, but please, count how many comedians you know who were bullied as children. Being bullied can do wonders for your charm, for your wit and for your ability to speak circles around anyone who wishes to make fun of you, and I'm sure being made fun of refined my ability in such things as well. Surely you know of this Obsidian, what with characters like Caesar and Durance preaching about how conflicts and flames can envoke an inner strength from you? I would never have had this opportunity were I born normally and with two legs instead of one. Aside from that, I have to highlight how I truly see no reason to be ashamed of my leg. I cannot tell you how many times friends or family will email me news about research into prosthetics or the ability to do a limb transplant, and they assume I'm gonna be super happy for that news and say "LOOK, YOU MIGHT BE NORMAL SOMEDAY!!" Why the hell would I want to be? Why would anyone think less of me for missing a limb? The only part about my leg that hurts is that it's made painfully obvious some people do think less of me when they make statements like that (and some other statements with even LESS tact, such as "do you have trouble landing a girlfriend cause of your leg?"). But do I find that warranted? Not at all. Stephen Hawking can't even wipe his own ass, and he's accomplished more in his lifetime than....well hell, you could dare argue he's at the top, with very few people able to compete with him and his accomplishments. It's because we're at a point in society where physical disabilities mean jack. Charles Darwin argued "survival of the fittest," and many people make the mistake of assuming that means fastest, strongest or smartest. No, "fittest" here means those most capable of adapting to their environment. Hawking qualifies as one of the "fittest" because he highlights the truth that these days, intelligence is what you need to survive in this world. Even so, ALL of us qualify as "fit" because all of us are surviving, as society has made doing so quite simple. Even IF you wished to frown upon my disability still.....have you not SEEN the newer prosthetics? A day will come when prosthetics are superior to actual limbs. The athletic prosthetics are already proving this as they regularly become a hot button issue for race events, since there's debate a guy missing two legs but using two athletic prosthetics has an unreasonable advantage vs. a person with two legs. But I digress. The point with the above is that there's a parallel between a character like Pallegina and myself in that we both grew up being made fun of for being different. But that's the only thing we have in common, because while I don't consider my disability an issue despite the amount of people who to this day and to my age group of 26 now continue to think less of me over something so stupid? While I hold my head high, satisfied in knowing that I myself see no logical, objective conceivable reason to frown upon how I am, so I can safely discredit those that do as idiots? Pallegina cries like a little b****. She complains about being born different, she'll cry about it, she loathes and laments it. It's PAINFUL for me to listen to this, cause it's such a freaking pity party. It's like omfg suck it up. You have so many other things going for you, yet you let that one aspect of who you are rule you. You show an inability to wear it like a badge of pride and see the good in it and realize it's all quid pro quo with upsides and downsides (ironic since at one point she WILL acknowledge this and say who she is is responsible for her being allowed to do a job she loves); something I figured out in my early teens that she can't figure out as an adult. Pallegina is the type of character that would tearfully ask of God why she was born the way she was...dude if I met God I'd just jokingly ask "so what'd I do to piss you off," moreso in relation to the fact that I was born allergic to morphine and latex alongside a disability that'd demand I have several operations, not so much for the disability itself. It's GARBAGE how she acts, because I cannot feasibly see this happening with someone who grows up being different from birth. Becoming different somewhere down the line, sure, but not coming to terms with it over the course of 20+ years? GTFO. AND YET....I am wrong in a way. People are amazing in that you can find people of every stripe. Surely someone out there would tell an opposite story, about how they were born different just like Pallegina and they too lament it, and they too have not come to terms with it. And for these reasons, they love the character and connect with it that much better. Her stroy would inspire them....and I WANT it to inspire them. I want anyone to have a chance to feel a connection and feel inspired by a story. Have I ever met such a person that would love how she is in that regard? As I said I could expect this from someone who became different in the middle of their lifetime, (became disabled, victim of one of those acid attack stories that ruined a pretty face, anything that's blatantly obvious from appearance and first glance, really) though I can't think of an example of ever meeting someone who showed these emotions despite being different from birth. But I am not so arrogant and self-centered as to think this means such people do not exist. I am not so judgemental and shallow so as to think that anyone who grew up different, is exactly my age and doesn't exhibit the strength I do on this specific subject matter is just weaker and inferior to me; dozens of qualities and traits make up a man, and I could surely learn something else from them aswell. I am not so anxiety-ridden and so short on self-esteem that I take Pallegina's story as a personal attack on my person and who I am, I just don't like it because pity parties are a big pet peeve of mine and hers makes me groan that much more solely because I feel I relate to her situation. Despite this, do I think I could drum up controversy if I wanted to? Absolutely. I could easily play the "WTF SAWYER, NOT ALL OF US THAT ARE BORN VISIBLY OR PHYSICALLY DIFFERENT ARE LIKE THAT, WE DON'T RUN AROUND ASKING FOR PITY LIKE YOU SEEM TO THINK WE ALL DO. EVERYONE REBLOG/RETWEET THIS TO GET THEIR ATTENTION AND FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT, HERE'S MY PATREON LINK KTHX." You don't think that very same SJW crowd would take that bait? I'd ****ing bet my fake leg on it. But I don't do that. Because that would mean that Sawyer's character and his desire to express himself in some way would be completely snuffed out and we'd never hear his/her story. (his/her since author is male, character female) Stories are like people to me. You're a fool to think that you'll like all people, but that does not mean this world would be a better place if every person you didn't like dropped dead. Just because a person doesn't exhibit value to you does not mean they provide no value for others. Stories are exactly the same, as art imitates life imitates art. This may be "just a limerick," and you may be thinking people are foolish to read THIS much into it that it got removed. In a way you're right, but again, surely you must've known something like this would happen? These forums fill up and almost crash any time this issue comes up. You can easily check 8chan or KiA and see your names on the front page the moment this issue became a thing. What's going on is that people are second-guessing. They don't trust that this was your decision and your decision only, and wtf, they have every logical reason to do so, even if they lack sufficient evidence to definitively "convict" you, so to speak. My advice? Make that announcement and be honest. Be respectful, but be honest. If you want to tell GamerGate you disagree with it? Do so. If you want to tell SJWs to calm the hell down? Do so. I can already hear your marketing director saying "nonononononononono dun do that," but this is the thing: GamerGate's side is not against people having opinions. GamerGate would not be against Obsidian as an entity truly caring about being sensitive to such issues and wanting to remove that stuff out of a personal interest. GamerGate's stake in this is that they feel as though you've caved when you didn't actually want to, and that the decision was cowardly, made solely by some CEO or marketing director who's interest is only in the consumer's money and not actually within integrity of the game; that the company would gladly light a baby on fire tomorrow if it seemed like that's what the people wanted, and can at any time be bought off with the proper amount or the proper pressure applied to make you second-guess if an action, gameplay snippet or message is profitable for the company. But your actual opinion...? That holds value to GamerGate, and I think they could respect it even if it disagreed....so long as it treats them with due respect back, of course. And if your opinion is that this is stupid and you wish the SJW crowd would back off and stop policing things like this limerick? Say so. Look at the amount of people watching this topic. Look at the OVERWHELMING support for the limerick you're seeing now. These are GamerGaters. They've waited 8 months for a developer to have the balls to make a stand, and it's not happening because any CEO or marketing director is going to suggest a safe, hands-off approach. But these very same people would provide overwhelming support to any company to break this silence and voice support for them. I also would voice doubt that this issue of "transphobia" would escalate any further. I mean ffs, the guy who called it transphobic legit had misandric and neo nazi commentary on his account history, as I recall. You think your names will pop up on national news? You think this story would get that high with someone like that on the other side? Please. And if your worry is that sites like Kotaku are gonna pick up on the story, kindly visit Kotaku and check how many ads there are. It's a ghost town, because no one's reading them anymore. Even if that doesn't convince you.....wtf guys you're OBSIDIAN!!!! ****ing google "New Vegas feminism," "New Vegas Mormon," "New Vegas LGBT." You'll see nothing but praise from feminists (the ones not after cash anyways), Mormons and gay people alike, all praising the game for presenting such characters as people rather than letting their gender, religion or sexual orientation be their defining characteristic and "personality." The blatantly obvious truth is that YOU GUYS ARE NOT TRANSPHOBIC. You could very easily ignore the complaints of this limerick and then include a transgender NPC in a future DLC or title, and just show them firsthand how humanely you can write minority groups and how respectfully you can treat them. The complaint will not hold weight or damage your image in any way because it's simply not true. It jumps to outrageous conclusions that you guys support transphobia when it's clear that's not the case. Whatever your choice, whether you feel compelled to respond to me and tell me you think GamerGate is a flawed, reactionary movement that would do the world a favor if it died off, or if you want to let people know you guys didn't actually enjoy removing that limerick...just say so. Because I truly believe that's what people actually want right now: they want transparency and they want honesty, not neccesarily a hivemind adherence to whatever it is we want. We just want to see that companies can think for themselves and that they won't mindlessly sell out to the first potential threat to come along, because unfortunately there's a LOT of threats going around these days and that will quickly end poorly if this is the case. I'll be patiently awaiting the backer announcement clarifying how and why this move was done, let's hope people can put down the pitchforks until then and hear you guys out.....though let's not kid ourselves, they're not gonna do that.

Ok good because I was just about to post that while I would urge people to reserve judgement and hear Obsidian out on the matter before grabbing pitchforks, I also wanted to advise Obsidian that this whole controversy is undoubtedly the cause of this INCREDIBLE ****ING FORUM LAG I HAVE TO DEAL WITH and thus a highly watched and popular hot button drama issue, and I could link you to at least two websites right now that are wanting neck measurements on your company employees for caving. Given that, it's probably wise to clarify everything, what went down and why the decision was made.

Yeah bro, have you even SEEN this bear? This bear....This mother ****ing bear.... He's gotta be the most swole bear in the forest, and he's got a black belt in Judo to boot. He's wanted in four different empires for picnic basket larceny, too.

Please tell me that your little ending slide thing just shows you impaled on one with a text caption reading: "Great job. Idiot."

Oh god, this is beginning to sound like some political abortion debate....

Stop turning me on dude, wtf.

Flawless theory, 10/10. Protagonist character is clearly 7 years old so story checks out.

And then he died. The End.

I have read all of the examples of romance "done right" listed here and I still find them incredibly dull, predictable and boring. I do not understand this appeal. I also find it very telling that even the pro-romance side cannot come to a concensus in regards to a good romance example. This is exactly why it doesn't happen: because the amount of people that'll be fully satisfied with any potential romance option presented will be far too small to warrant the effort provided to make the subplot to begin with.