Longknife

Got a source on this?

Cmon guys let's be real here: Obsidian's not gonna remove that quest.

That thing is fat, and I will challenge anyone to fisticuffs who dares disagree with me.

Monks are good if you enjoy monkeying around.

I'm a racist white guy and other races trigger me. Please delete anything but Meadow Folk from Pillars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YZb8s7Kxa4

Another thing that's been going on is his posts are being picked apart and his words twisted. Take a look at this: http://i.imgur.com/lfie3XH.jpg The underlined is what's being focused on. It's being used to argue that he was coerced or pressured or forced in some way to remove it. You could argue that he was pressured and coerced by the people who complained about it on twitter I guess, but the problem is people are running with it and basically saying Obsidian coerced/pressured/forced him and that Obsidian's crime was approaching him about the post to begin with.

That's one person. On a sub of 32 thousand people, with wildly varying opinions on this matter, ranging from boycotting Obsidian, to supporting Obsidian over this. That doesn't seem fair to generalize that entire group over the posts of one person. There are idiots everywhere. I'm in that group of 32,000 people. I'm just not one to not be critical of my own groups. When news of this broke out? I was critical of Obsidian because I disagreed with how it was done. After Firedorn's input, that was enough for me. Now? Now I'm critical of how GamerGate is handling it because they seem out for blood and incapable of calming down even when some evidence suggests it's time to do so. Don't get me wrong; to generalize the entire group because of the idiots I've encountered would be a terrible mistake, as it would be with any group. However, I do highlight that post because sadly this is not an anomaly at the moment. I've been getting spammed with downvotes for even suggesting everyone should calm down and try and communicate rather than just screaming about boycotts against Obsidian. If this hurts them enough to boycott, so be it. However, I also find that a tad naive, because I truly believe any other game developer or company would've handled the situation the same. So if their plan is to boycott anyone who doesn't share their ideology enough, they're just gonna alienate a lot of companies very quickly.

I only suggest it because Obsidian has an excellent track record with such things and has shown a clear desire to represent such groups in the past. Half of the normal human characters in New Vegas are gay, neither female is sexualized, many more random NPCs are also gay. It sounds like something Obsidian would legitimately be interested in doing, hence the suggestion. It feels "better" to me than simply cutting the limerick out, because the limerick is a matter of censorship vs. a lack thereof. Pulling it already aggrivates one side of the argument, but leaving it in and appealing to the opposite side of the argument in another way sees that both parties are happy. Thus they're no longer in direct conflict with each other and everyone can fart sunshine and rainbows. Too bad hindsight is 20/20

To be fair, I don't think either side should be claiming moral superiority....which is kind of what you're doing. However, if I can look at a situation and at least understand why they might've wanted to choose the path they chose, then I probably shouldn't act outraged if they simply didn't choose my favored means of solving the problem. If it were my call, I would've left the limerick in as a statement about people's rights to express themselves, then planned work on a transgender companion for an expansion, as a means to show there's no transphobia going on and it's merely a matter of showing respect for both the transgender community and for those who wish to tell bolder jokes. Doesn't mean I'mma flip if they use another tact.

While I agree with you, the fact that all the limmerick threads are being locked is troubling to me. It doesn't make me throw them under the bus, but it sets the path that many other studios that I despise went...hell I see myself in the foreseeable future only playing Japanese games, good thing they are releasing stuff in Steam. But at least they asked Firedorn, this is more than we can expect in this day and age of almost any Studio. At any rate, what is this doing in a GG discussion? No reason to worry about them being locked. Threads get locked after they breach 30-35 pages in length. Only one thread has been locked so far on the grounds of it devolving into a mess, and trust me, it was warranted. The only people left in the discussion at that point were the ones who wanted drama. There's already another thread about the limerick open right now. This "Journalism and bias..." thread series is over half a year old. We've discussed GamerGate over half a year, never been censored by Obsidian. And this is all relevant to GG. Check: http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/ It's at the top of their interests right now cause it reflects censorship and overly sensitive SJW types.

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/31dr3h/re_obsidian_here_is_the_opinion_of_the_actual/cq0v55a They're quoting logical fallacies that led the US to get into a war with Iraq as a means to be mad at Obsidian.

Mooding

Just because someone is more insane, doens't mean it's ok to be slightly less insane. I am disappointed too with the whole thing, but if this is all it takes for some people to go ballistic on Obsidian, well then how they are better than the people who started it? Exactly this. I saw the "trust but verify" mantra go out the window as people clung to the stupidest **** to be mad about. Did you know it was a thing to claim BAdler lied to us (on reddit anyways)? How? He has a post somewhere where he essentially said something like "the grave wasn't removed. It seems to have moved to the Woodland gravesite (we have limited control over where it ends up or moves). We spoke with the backer about it." People focused on the "the grave wasn't removed" part and argued this is a lie because they did infact remove the limerick, and they showed absolutely ZERO willingness to try and make sense of what BAdler meant, even when the latter half of the post about talking to the backer heavily implied he meant the limerick was changed. It's like wtf is this nitpicky bullcrap and why are the people claiming the twitter rant was ridiculous the ones RESPONSIBLE for this nitpicky bullcrap? If you want to actually be critical of Obsidian, why not just highlight how they should've announced the change in advance? Why not just repeatedly ask them why they felt the removal was warranted to begin with? Inventing non-issues and spending time on those doesn't help further ones agenda, it just distracts from instances where people actually do have legitimate reasons to complain about how things were handled.

IMAGINE for a moment that you know for a fact that someone within your community (Obsidian) is guilty of petty theft, and you believe they should face consequences for it. However, the moment you're ready to turn that person in, you realize that the town has an interest in taking this petty thief and charging them with COLD-BLOODED MURDER, something you consider outrageous and totally unjustified. You are then hesitant to bring the petty thief to the police and turn them in at all, because while they do need to face some level of justice, you have a sinking feeling there won't be anything justified about the punishment that will come. That's how I feel about this. And no it's not a perfect analogy as Obsidian didn't really commit a crime to begin with so "facing justice" is not the best for this analogy. My beef with them is more that again more communication would've done wonders to calm this down and I also get the sense Obsidian had perhaps a very....uneducated insight into what would actually happen if the limerick were pulled, to a degree that I almost consider to be negligent.

I'm very conflicted. On one hand I too was disappointed to see the route they took. On the other hand, I think they took that route in the best way possible by letting the backer ultimately decide if the limerick would even be changed or left as is. Only thing they could've improved upon is warning us in advance, not after the change is made. That would've done loads to calm the storm; they handled the issue itself perfectly, but not the presentation and the communication aspect of it, which was handled terribly. On a much more dramatic end of things, I've seen myself how people are practically feeding themselves excuses to be mad at Obsidian. Many of the responses to Firedorn (the backer) having authority over if it was changed or not have been "he's lying" or "Obsidian is wrong for even TRYING to appease all sides in the first place." This I find nothing short of ridiculous, because I think any company would've acted EXACTLY the same in their shoes, and to act as if that's not the case is...it's just childish. It's an excuse to remain mad rather than assess the facts and react accordingly. In that sense I'm just...mad. But it's a very melancholy sort of mad where I'm upset with everyone. I'm upset with Obsidian for not thinking things through more; why not tell people upfront about the change? Or leave it in but explicitly plan a transgender NPC in an upcoming expansion or game so as to appeal to both the anti-censorship camp but also show that it's not a matter of transphobia? I'm upset with the (in my opinion) delusional assessment of how "poor" it is Obsidian handled this, as if an attempt to appease all sides is not a standard practice that ANY company would go through. I'm upset with the amount of people who acted like freaking children on these forums, both people for and against the limerick, just sitting about pointing fingers at each other and never daring to think critically about accusations pointed at themselves instead of just pointing fingers. I'm upset about how in my efforts to bring facts about the situation to a certain GamerGate subreddit, I consistently found my posts downvoted faster than I could hit the refresh button simply because my facts put a bit of a damper on the trendy narrative at the time. These are supposed to be the people who accuse the guy on twitter of overreacting...? WTF guys you're doing the same.... I'M UPSET. That's all I know.

WTF dude you stole my comment.

It's standard for a company, dude. A company will always search the middle ground that pleases all sides if possible. Personally I'm happy knowing that Obsidian gave Firedorn to leave the limerick in place exactly as it was and that he was the one to decide to change it for their sake. I don't think it's realistic to expect more than that from a company. That's just how it is.

That's the thing: "escaping initial vetting" is vague. Purposefully so. That CAN be interpreted as them not finding it offensive initially, or any number of ways. PR in a nutshell.

Can I ask why Sawyer's white cat is so fat?

....But Scarlet is hotter. :C

EDIT: YEah I saw that. But Then why the hell Feargus said the real reason was "this escaped initial vetting" ??? Because PR. It's that simple. We don't know how serious of a vetting process occured, we don't know if said process initially conciously OK'ed his limerick or if some new worker who didn't know that kind of thing wouldn't be allowed OK'ed it or if it was legitimately looked over because all they did for "vetting" was scan the graves for offensive language or porn or something. It's an empty statement that PR is safe to make because you cannot realistically investigate the truth of the statement. Even if we had video of an Obsidian employee vetting this specific limerick, laughing his butt off, liking it and giving it the OK before continuing with his work, PR can claim that that guy actually did not have the authority to make that decision or whatever. This is PR, plain and simple. They claim it escaped because that looks good for the people who complained. They claim the removal of it is just very normal because that looks good for people who complain about the removal. Regardless, Firedorn confirms for us how it went down, and how it went down is a method I for one find very acceptable. The people that continue complaining are essentially saying "A PR EMPLOYEE WASN'T STRAIGHTFORWARD AND DECEIVINGLY VAGUE IN HIS EXPLANATION AND THEREFORE SOMEWHAT DISHONEST TO A TINY DEGREE?!?" No derp dude, that's PR. That's what they do. There's no reason to hold Obsidian as a company accountable for this more than any other company. EVERY company would have a PR guy that would do something like this.

Gotta rant here since I can. This whole Obsidian debacle....Of course I watched it close, as I'm sure you all did. Moment we got news it was Firedorn that opted to remove it with no pressure or force telling him to do so, I took that info and ran to KiA to try and calm people down. The snippet quoting Firedorn in the Obsidian megathread is thanks to yours truly for getting in touch with the mods ASAP. (pat on back for my minimal effort job) What's frustrating though, is the sheer amount of people that didn't give a damn and wanted to remain mad cuz being mad is fun. Holy hell, I mean check this out: http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/31dqxo/obsidian_consulted_with_the_backer_before/cq0oh0k?context=3 Check the guy at the bottom. I mean wtf. In a way I expected this. No group is flawless, both sides have derptards who just love drama. But having to go toe-to-toe with it and see how relentless it is yourself? Pretty disheartening. It's frustrating because it's like how many people have visited KiA, been greeted by THESE idiots, and then quickly ran away never to return with the belief that the whole of GamerGate is a bunch of overzealous reactionary jerks. I REALLY wish there was a way to just weed out idiots in general. So annoying to have to deal with. Also inb4 Bruce saying "MAYBE NOW YOU'LL SEE THE LIGHT LONGKNIFE." No I'd expect the exact same from Ghazi.

Pro-Tip: CEOs of a company will do PR and word things in beneficial ways. If you think it's plausible to change this practice, I've got a bridge leading nowhere I'd like to sell you. If you're so naive to not be on your toes about any statements a CEO, marketing director or PR guy gives you, then you're gonna be disappointed and confused quite a lot. You can gladly go be mad at Feargus for his statement being unclear or a "half-truth" in some ways, but I think you'll find you take issue with every CEO ever. Feargus wasn't saying this to merely the general public, he said it to people that were responsible for the game being funded. There's also the fact that the POINT of Kickstarter is the AVOID needing to bull**** customers for the publishers sake. I know, because I am one of those backers. Are you? It's really quite simple here: One case where I'm at odds with SJWs? Let's take the feminists for example. They often argue we need a world with no gender stereotypes, where men and women are objectified equally and both can be a construction worker or a hair stylist or whatever without being judged. Theoretically speaking, is there anything wrong with this view? Not at all. It wouldn't do harm. So what's the problem? The problem is that they never present a working plan to make it happen, and their reasons why it's neccesary are also often weak. They dream of a world where no one ever says anything transphobic or hateful, but when it comes time to motivate people to think and speak that way, their solutions are akin to "KILL HIM" if someone does say or think something they consider out of line. Same concept here. Give me a working plan on how you expect PR, Marketing and CEO positions to suddenly not play with words and language to present the most inoffensive, user-friendly image imagineable. You don't have one. I promise you you don't, nor will you ever. If you think you have one, then I promise you're about to say "BOYCOTT OBSIDIAN" which might as well be "KILL HIM." You're being unreasonable and very naive to the realities of the world if you expect flawless, transparent truth from a CEO. That's just how it is. Use that knowledge to your advantage, because if all you can do is freak out when a CEO doesn't shoot straight with you, you're gonna lose all your hair by age 30.

I'm from KiA and I'd still thank you not to throw us all in the same bag, especially since as I recall, you've dodged any attempts to debate with me or others these past few pages aswell. As far as I'm concerned, you condone yourself not much better than many of the people I'm currently highly frustrated with. It might help if your posts involved a little more objective discussion and a little less smug sense of satisfaction when you think you've just tossed out an epic "burn."