Boeroer

They deal good single target damage but are not the best choice for that while also being more flimsy than any other class that profits from going melee. They have no class-specific means to do anything in an AoE - so they should really rock at affecting single targets. That's the main problem. Plus: the high level powers of rogues are very unexciting. They deserve a buff. If OBS would tweak stealth/invisibility in favor of rogues, or basically in favor of backstab, that is a buff for me and would be welcome. By the way if somebody comes up with a trick or build how to make the rogue more useful and powerful in the mid to late game (besides using Deathblows + Deep Wounds + spells, which is fun) I would be more than happy to change my mind... again. He's not awful and terrible, he just feels a bit weak compared to other classes. He's supposed to be really good at dealing damage because he can't support and his CC is very limited. But to make up for his lack of AoE damage his single target damage numbers are too low and it's too much fuzz to keep them up. Just my opinion. A single ability or an improvement to an ability could change that. Look at barbs (new Blood Thirst, improved HoF) and fighters (Charge mainly for me).

No, I was right: http://guides.gamepressure.com/pillarsofeternity/guide.asp?ID=29959 Just try to reach the Master Staircase. It should be doable with some split pulling and using doorways as chokepoints.

Eh? Isn't there a Master Staircase that leads up to the surface at lvl 5? Or does my memory fool me?

Finishing Blow is just useless. It generates very high numbers if the endurance is already very low, overkilling like crazy. You can't rule it out in the way you did it. You need to know how much endurance was left and take that as the "real" damage that was done. No creature in PoE that gets hit by a 1700 finishing blow had more than 100 to 200 endurance left I would guess. Lucky crit means that your damage roll is high, too. It doesn't mean that you have to be lucky to land a crit. Most rogues will have a 50/50 hit/crit ratio. I highly doubt that the rogue will come out on top of anything except getting knocked out. But feel free to do some encounters with a rogue and a druid and report how it turns out. But this time my bet is on the druid.

You have to remember that one lucky crit with an arquebus + Finishing Blow + whatnot and whatever doesn't say anything about your dps - damage per second. For example the highest single target melee DPS (not highest damage per hit) generally comes from Drawn in Spring, the highest ranged DPS from Persistence - when wielded with 0 recovery. Both because of wounding with high MIG values. Both weapons are not doing exceptional high damage numbers per hit. But in terms of DPS they are top. They also work great against high DR targets despite being fast and light. High numbers per hit look impressive, but they are no proof of DPS. And please let us not talk about Finishing Blow when we talk about rogues' DPS - one of the most useless and overrated abilities of the game. It nearly does zero for overall DPS. It's just a cosmetic effect for your char sheet. They should call it "Overkilling Blow". It's as useless as Bloody Slaughter - which is sometimes recommended by people who like Overkilling Blow in order to generate those high numbers. Let's call it Bloody Laughter. Your overall DPS will be high if you can constantly score high numbers with every hit AND if you can hit as fast as possible (preferably with 0 recovery while having Vuln. Attack on). This counts for single target damage as well as for AoE. A druid usually hits like a truck with high speed (although not 0 recovery most of times) and doesn't have to look at afflictions or whatever. Every successful graze/hit/crit will cause around 150-250 damage and his DR bypass can be great, too. If he chooses boar and has wounding he's doing absolutely great against high DR targets as well as against low DR targets. He can push this further with Avenging Storm, doing massive shock damage on strikes and also when getting hit. He can stunlock his opponent without any time loss while hitting him, causing lots of crits and at the same time prevent other enemies from hurting him. And let's not forget that his lashes and also Avenging Storm/Relentless Storm can profit from Heart of the Storm which will multiply his overall shock damage which is more than 50% of the damage he causes - by 1.2. A rogue's power curve after lvl 11 is flat. I mean which significant boost to DPS or even damage per hit come after Deathblows? I can't think of anything with big impact. The best thing you can do is to improve your equipment with durgan steel and maybe smear a dragon's or kraken's eyeball over it. But even then: not too long ago we had a discussion where we compared (in game, including tests) a perfectly build 0 recovery rogue with dual Rimecutters (durganized and lashes and so on - a strong setup on paper, one of the best for dps) to a cat druid with wild strike shock. I have to admit I put my bet on the rogue back then. I was proven so wrong - it was a shame. And the druid doesn't even need any fancy item for this besides the wildstrike belt. That's only the "theoretical" advantage of a druid. Then, if you compare both in a real playthrough it's so obvious that the rogue is so much weaker. It hurts. It makes you angry at the druid and you feel pity for the poor rogue. That's why I say that he should be made better at doing rogue stuff. And I don't mean killing people with 1000+ damage hits who have 10 endurance left... For example: a really cool ability would have been if the rogue could do one single opening attack out of stealth which halved the endurance of the target. Do you remember "Stasis Field" from Diablo 2? Quite the opposite to Overkilling Blow. If Bloody Slaughter would then be changed to be triggered at 50% instead of 10% endurance that would be nice. And please don't say thay I just don't have enough experience or that I didn't find the right build yet...

You could do that and respec after you get HoF. Because 1 HoF at the start with Spelltongue in a big group will give you enough duration for the rest of the encounter.

Ha, cool! I wasn't sure if you could find a priest who will give you that spell.

No, that's not possible. You can't delete enchantments. You can only "remove" enchantments by overwriting them. But the only enchantments you can overwrite (be it weapon, shield or armor) are Accurate I-III, Damaging I-III and the quality enchantments Fine, Exceptional and Superb. Quality enchantments always beat Accurate I-III and Damaging I-III. And although tier III of each is actually better than Fine, Fine will overwrite them. Exceptional will overwrite them plus Fine. Superb will overwrite them plus Fine plus Exceptional and finally Legendary will overwrite all of them and can't be overwritten because there's nothing better. Well... theoretically there's also Mythic that would overwrite Legendary - but it's only possible to get special soulbound weapons to the mythic quality. You can't use it in enchantments because there are no resources for it and it's not unlocked in the enchantment GUI. Therefore the amor enchantment you mentioned (of intellect) is permanent. Sadly a INT+1 enchantment can't be overwritten with INT+2. At least last time I checked. Maybe that changed, but I doubt it. I would be happy if I'm wrong.

Please note that when I was playing this build that Enervating Blows worked with retaliation (I guess that's still the case). So if the retaliation crits the enemy is weakened. It indeed helps a lot with Force of Anguish. And you shouldn't look at this as if it was a solo build. The afflictions you cause also help your teammates. For example an enemy automatically qalifies for rogue's Deathblows if he hits this monk. It helps some of your casters spells to land or even crit and so on and so forth. I think there are other chars/builds which are better suited for looped rope. I try to spread items throughout my build because it would became quite boring if you use all the same stuff all the time for every build. But of course Ryona's Breastplate is a good alternative - esp. when Triggered Immunity is unlocked. I did not use Elryn's Jacket by the way. Not enough DR for a retaliation build.

You should have taken Stormcaller or Persistance (DR problem solved and a leap in dps, too). And you have to take into account that a melee rogue has to reach his enemies and therefore has to move (costs time) or has to disengage (falls on his face). The bow ranger only needs to target and fire - and this works even when his pet is still on the way. Melee weapons have higher dps in general - maybe to make up for that running. So if the ranged ranger can achieve the same theoretical dps as a dual sabre melee rogue (assuming the rogue can instantly reach all his targets) this is another sign that there's something wrong with the rogue's performance. If you wanted to compare both properly (not only plain dps which will never be achieved during the game) you'd have to compare a ranged ranger to a ranged rogue and a melee ranger to a melee rogue - just to rule out all those tactical things that you can't put in a spreadsheet. And even then I couldn't say if a properly outfitted and skilled melee ranger wouldn't outperform a effective melee rogue in a real playthough. Faster attack rate, automatic flanking, synergies between ranger & pet (wounding->predator's sense / stunning + flanking->deflection debuff, Appr. sneak, Merciless Comp. bonus damage from survival and so on), Stalker's Torc, pet's knockdown. The ranger has some nice things going on nowadays. Did you know that stunning shots work with driving flight in melee? You will stun an enemy behind your target if you use stunning shots + driving flight and a melee weapon. Stupid, I know... I think it can be fun to play a rogue with guns. Then the timing with guns and the timing with afflictions would make sense and you could possibly take out dangerous enemies with one single shot. +150% arquebus damage is really hefty when combined with a lash. He wouldn't be top dps but could be useful. But that's not enough for me when it comes to rogues. And most of the time you want to kill those casters quickly. Waiting for afflictions may be frustrating. A fighter with Charge + Knockdown can instantly take out such an enemy, reach the next and deal a ton of damage while moving from one side of the field to the other in the blink of a second. What does the rogue get? Ah, yes... Shadow Step... ach... And then we haven't even talked about the druid who not only outperforms any rogue in melee but also can cast a whole lot of powerful stuff that makes him nearly invincible in a 1:1 situation. Add up Returning + Relentless + Nature's Terror + Avenging Storm and his mad wildstrikes with high speed and ridiculous high base damage + powerful lashes. You can even add powerful wounding (boar) or even more speed (cat) for more dps. Druid is fun, no doubt. But it's a shame that he can do everything better than a rogue. But please don't nerf druids now! Jeeez!

No offense, but which expert did that spreadsheet? Nerd Commando? Comparing a rogue will all goodies to an arquebus ranger without driving flight and animal companion is like comparing a fully equipped Porsche to a Ferrari without motor and tires... kind of. Even before any patch a ranger would have done more dps with - let's say Persistence - than with any arquebus. Even the nicest looking spreadsheets doesn't tell the truth when one forgets to put in the right things. . Besides that, even the Porsche lacked a turbocharger: the rogue's outfit and skillset are not the best for highest overall dps in that example... Arquebuses do great burst damage and are good for alpha strikes and for taking out squishy target with one shot - but they are not good dps weapons. And I mean not only on a spreadsheet which are highly theoretical and never show you the real performance in the game anyways, but also in regard to the experience of a lot of people after countless playthroughs. There's a reason why there are few gun builds around. Those which are are beased on some very special item enchantments or spell/ability/item combiations. Not only is the dps of a gun ranger lower than that of a bow ranger (even without Twinned Arrows) in a real playthrough, but also the whole encounter design works against guns: You have to time your shots so that you don't waste them. You don't want to overkill stuff. You don't want to miss with your precious shot so you wait for ACC buffs or afflictions on the enemy. You don't want to wait too long because the encounters are quite short most of the time... All that timing leads to even more seconds where you can't fire, recover or reload and so on, dropping your dps further. This can't be covered by a spreadsheet. The worst part about guns and arbalests/crossbows is that your reload animation starts all over again when you have to move. And there's no talent against that. Sure, you can switch, and it's a good way to increase your dps, but it's also a lot of micro and you have to invest two talents and feel forced to use Island Aumua to make it worthwhile. And even then you won't reach a good bow's dps. Nowadays rangers may have Powder Burns which boosts gun dps a bit. But guns are still the worst decision that you can make for a dps ranger. It damages your friends as well, it blinds you... it's just not good. I doubt that that spreadsheet from 2015 was done with proper knowledge and/or evenhandedness. Some people loved rogues and did everything to prove they are or were the best. No idea why. I would really like them to be better. And causing afllictions is of course quite easy. But if you can cause several afflictions in an AoE with a wizard, it's way easier and more comfirtable to disable them even more with AoE effects or kill them all quickly with AoE damage until they are dead than to run to each of them while those afflictions last and to kill them one by one. This can be effective against certain enemies like enemy casters and ranged enemies - but usually a rogue is not very good at this because he lacks the survivability to survive when he runs behin enemy lines. A fighter or monk are much better choices in my opinion. If you could restealth in an encounter or vanish more than twice per rest, allowing to retreat and to deliver more bckstabs, it woul make the rogue THE perfect assassin of those backline squishies. At the moment you'd either gimp your precious offense in order to make him sturdy enough to operate behind the enemy lines or you would fall flat on your face if a caster would lauch a necrotic lance at you. But even IF the rogue used to be the best single target damage dealer back then (which I still doubt because I played PoE from the beginning and always felt that the rogue was pretty lame - but in the beginning rangers felt the same, too ) - nowadays he isn't top or even mediocre at all. No wait - he's really good at avoiding encounters - which can be pretty useful if you play solo. But in a party, that's not very useful. We had the same discussion with the ranger, the paladin, the fighter and the barb. Each of them lacked something during the last few years while the game was out and all of them got patched. All of them got buffed in some way and now I seldomly hear complaints about them. Sometimes this was achieved with one or two simple changes. The paladin got +20 ACC for FoD and Sacred Immolation. The barb's main improvement was HoF 1/encounter (which made him the mundane class with the highest dps output). Even fighters got really nice additions like Charge - which is the main reason I like fighters now. Now they all seem to be in balance. Only the rogue falls behind. You can use him in weird and also funny ways to lift him up (make an AoE caster out of him), but his designated role(s) is another and he sucks at that - and that's sad. I would like him to be better.

Sure. Just grab Spelltongue and use it as your main weapon. It's the main point of the leech build. Make sure you pick all the items, talents and abilities that have durations that can be expanded (if you want them), like Savage/Stalwart Defiance, Shod-in-Faith, Vet. Recovery and so on.

Nope

It may have been that the rogue was the best single target damage dealer when all circumstances were perfect (afflictions were up, not too many enemies attacking him and so on) but most of the time you had to invest a ton of micromanagement to keep him alive and at the same time make sure that there was one or two afflictions (that don't suppress each other) which would trigger sneak attack and deathblows. Backstab isn't and never was a big dps boost. In the early days it was even weaker than today (only +100% base weapon dmg instead of 150%) and you had really bad stealth mechanics (party unstealthed completely, only 2 invisibility uses per rest). It's true that the classes that outperform him now in terms of single target damage were not as good back in the days. Ranger's pets were weak, druid's spiritshift also. But still: after a complete playthrough on PoTD (rogues feel more powerful at lower difficulties, I'll give them that) you had the feeling that it would have been easier if you just had dumped the effing rogue and hired some other class. Most of the time my rogues were not leading in damage output - only in hit/crit ratio.

I would say alter Shadow Step and Smoke Cloud in a way that you can re-enter stealth or become invisible for a rel. short time. Then you won't need to buff the damage because backstabbing would be possible again. Make Shadowing Beyond per encounter or give it more uses per rest than mere 2. Give small, concealable weapons like daggers and stilettos +200% bonus damage when backstabbing. Atm backstabbing works best with hard hitting, slow weapons because the number of attacks is so limited. I have to admit this will only buff Backstabbing.

Casters who get their spell uses back after resting. Namely wizard, druid and priest in PoE.

And they are not immune to prone. Against a monk or fighter with very high ACC they kneel before me all the time.

Ach damn it.

Yes, it's burning DoT. And the Eyeless are immune to it, that's true. But they have so much endurance that a 1/encounter ability like Holy Radiance alone wouldn't win you the fight even if it worked. Against most other vessels wich are a pain in the back (and don't have a ton of endurance and no stellar defenses, but come in great numbers) it's a great ability. Against Eyeless and other immune vessels you can still use the Redeemer or Abydon's Hammer. To be honest I always found the Eyeless to be less annoying than most other mid level vessels like fampyrs and some darguls or even plain old skeletal fighters and wizards. It all depends when you meet them (what level you are). I tend to do WMII as last part of my playthrough - the Eyeless are no threat then.

For me the best low level AoE guy is a monk with Torment's Reach. He will not improve his AoE "magic" much after that though. I think of all the vanican casters the druid and the wizard are the ones who have the best low level AoE spells and therefore are also good on early game. The druid has the advantage that his base stats are better than the wizard's. The wizard has some awesome spells like Eldritch Aim, Parasitic Staff and Chillfog which makes him great in the early game, but in that list only Chillfog is AoE. But the combo of Eldritch Aim + Blinding + pulsing frost damage is very powerful. All vancian casters get better and better with every level though. Some spell levels may suck (looking at you, druid), but generally speaking their "power curve" is very steep. You guys forgot priest. For me a late bloomer when it comes to AoE damage - but very powerful, too because of his tremendous MIG, INT and ACC buffs. Shining Beacon + Pillars of Faith & Fire + Holy Storm + Symbol of <deity> are very good with this. And against vessels a MC priest with focus on max MIG and INT and the right reputation is the bane of all vessels. Even fampyrs can be one-shotted if you manage to crit. I once had a priest who did over 300 damage on hit (not crit) to each vessel in range with his Holy Radiance without too much fuzz. Maybe one could lift that to 400. The bonus damage from level/reputation and high MIG/INT add up (or multiply?) pretty nicely. With this, most difficult vessel encounters become cakewalks. In terms of damage, nothing compares to a HoF barb, optimized for biggest AoE and with max DMG per hit and combined with Combusting Wounds. And the chanter is of course the most convenient way to apply a lot of AoE damage.

Hidden nerf I guess. I think that also means that Citzal's Spirit Lance + Envenomed Strike and Rot Skulls + Envenomed Strike doesn't work any more.

I don't want to sound c0cky, but your rogue disagrees about what? Those stats only prove what I said. Compare your "max damage" to a solid shapeshifting druid who will deliver crits above 200 dmg regularly. And compare your "total damage done" to a HoF-barbarian or a monk. Both will laugh at the total damage done. I have two screenshots here from my last playthrough with the Golden Dragon build (barbarian tank, not optimized for damage - since he's a tank) and an unarmed shapeshifting druid (boar, focused on survivability rather than highest possible dps): Those are lvl 16 though. But they are just two examples from one of my playthroughs where I didn't even focus on damage dealing. I even looked up my Counselor Ploi's stats (pure supporter paladin, totally not dps oriented) and even he has a higher max damage value. My melee priest in that run has "only" around 100 max damage hit, but his overall damage is way higher than the rogues (with very few crits). As you can see, theay are all better in their own ways while contributing to the party's performance in so many other ways at the same time: tanking, supporting, buffing, CC. And all of them provide a lot of survivability - I'm pretty sure they are way better at staying alive than any rogue. The rogue can only deal single target damage - and even at that he's bested. That's sad. I would like the rogue to be better. Some damage dealing things don't even get logged - like ranger's animal companions or chanters' Dragon Thrashed. If you count ranger+pet as one char, they also clrealy win against any rogue. The rogue is not the best single target damage dealer nor is he best at anything else - except hurling AoE spells with Deathblows - which is quite funny. They need a complete overhaul in my opinion. Either give them better single target damage without all that affliction fuzz (something around poison maybe or special talents/abilites around short blades or allow then to re-enter stealth?) or give them more AoE possibilites.

You have to rest at an inn (in a village or city), in your stronghold (if you acquired one and build the mansion) or camp (uses camping supplies) in the wilderness or dungeon.

I don't know. Double damage with spells is more powerful than more ACC in this case, because as a rogue you can always use a Scroll of Valor or a Potion of Eldritch Aim and nearly get the same ACC as a fighter, but a fighter can never get +100% damage with spells. The rogue can have additional hit to crit conversion, too. And he has Deep Wounds which work with all spells (also AoE) that do crush, pierce or slash damage - like Bounding Missiles or whatever. Besides Disciplined Barrage the fighter has no talent or ability that boosts spells directly, except maybe Confident Aim. For spell bindings which don't have anything to do with damage a fighter might be better though - for example Whisper of Treason.

Rogue with Deathblows and lots of spell bindings is really good though. Sneak Attack doesn't work with spells, but Deathblows do. So try to grab every piece of equipment with spells (Sun-Touched Mail, Amulet of Summer Solstice, Flames of Fair Rhian and so on). But in terms of single target damage he's inferior to druid, ranger and later on also fighter (if the fighter is skilled for dps and has Charge). And you always have that fuzz with the afflictions and also have to be very careful so he doesn't get knocked out after being looked at.