Boeroer

Yes it did. By the way: do the people that got PoE via crowdfunding reward also count (on steam)? Because a game that's funded by Kickstarter and such is a success per se once the funding was successful and the game was shipped. As far as I know Tyranny was completely paid by a publisher- So maybe the 160.000 copies are even worse than with a game that sold 160.000 as well but was funded on a crowd ourcing platform.

I wouldn't say Tyranny sucked - I played it and was enough fun for sure. And it had some really nice features, too. But for me and my taste it is in no way as good as PoE. I couldn't convince myself to do more than 2.5 playthroughs and then I really had enough of it. Only my personal perception. I don't want to say that this must be the case for everybody else. So I would agree to OP that I don't want PoE2 to be like Tyranny.

It's called chickening out. Show me a rogue doing a proper encounter - even with sidekicks. That's how you can determine if a class is weakest or is no.1 single target damage dealer or not. Maybe there are other ways, but picking a single small thing and deducing that this thing makes a whole class strong or weak is not. You can't determine if a class is weak or not or top single target DPS or not by showing me the likelyness of crits. This can be a hint but nothing more. It's like - instead of accepting the fair challenge to come up with a good build and show what it can achieve in an encounter - I would ask you to find a class that can petrify enemies other than druid an wizard and then saying "you lost the challenge" if you can't. My challenge still stands. If you don't want to accept it then fine. But don't come up with alternative meaningless challenges like the one above. Because then this would go on forever - I'm also capable of inventing meaningless challenges - like "0 recovery with a two hander with Vulnerable Attack, plate armor, Cautious Attack and without scrolls and potions". But since that is just pussyfooting around I won't do it. I don't say you lost my challenge, but if you're not willing to accept it nor even talk about it I assume you have developed some doubts.

Nope. It has no effect on the game. But maybe it has in PoE2 if you import your save game. If I look at Josh and his diabolical grin that appears every now and then in the twitch streams i can imagine that OBS might put a consequence into PoE2 if you snuffed the candle in PoE1.

Not really (I guess). There's a system that lets you empower your per-encounter spells. For example you can empower your Magic Missile spell in a way that it has way more missiles. Think of original magic missile (spell, 3 missiles) compared to Missile Barrage (scroll, 9 missiles) like they were in PoE. Those empowerments can only be regained through resting. So you will have a kind of vancian casting - but only for the powerful spell variants. The plain (an maybe quite weak compared to empowered) variants can always be used per encounter. I think this deepens the system instead of flatten it, but this is only speculation at the moment of course. But if I take the measure of Josh correctly he won't do such things like streamlining just to appeal to a wider mass. The reduction from 6 to 5 party members is sad - but since I don't know and can't foresee the drawbacks and benefits of it yet I will keep my feet still on that matter.

I can only judge based on the fig updates, twitch streams and some OBS posts here and there, but it seems that the game will be even deeper when it comes to builds, mechanics and tactics. Hopefully those things will be explained better than on PoE where it's somewhat difficult to find out how things really work under the hood. It's ok for veterans who also read in forums and so on, but hard for beginners and can lead to frustration. But multiclassing alone should lead to a multitude of possible approaches how you can deal with enemies and quests. Tyranny also lacked the possibility to have many different but also viable builds. Some where supergood and the rest just meh. Some build that seemed to make sense were really bad. PoE does this way better and I think they want to focus on that, too because Josh always said he' proud of this special feature: that you can build every class very differently and still be effective. Maybe the reason why Tyranny was more streamlined was that it was done with a publisher. This may be the main reason that some games (have to) appeal to wider masses most of the time. Since PoE and PoE2 will be the total IP of Obsidian I'm pretty confident that we will not see those problems with PoE2.

I think I answered that question good enough in my previous post. See the part about barbs and monks. They will generate more crits and therefore prone/stun in a given timespan without buffs, scrolls or potions as long as more than two enemies are attacked. Especially the barb will do at higher levels because he needs no resource like wounds for it and because carnage + accurate carnage will result in +11 accuracy at lvl 16 with carnage hits - give in the barb's carnage more accuracy than the rogue's autoattacks and having the big advantage that he will hit a lot more foes at the same time, thus generating more crits in total. Maybe even a melee dual wielding ranger will be able to proc on crit effects as many times with the help of his companion - didn't test that but he could come close. His ACC will be higher but he will have lower hit/drit conversion. But does he need to do that? Nope, because he has stunning shts which also works in melee - thus making on crit effects totally redundant because he will cause stun with every hit. So even the high proc-on-crit rate of a rogue doesn't truely make him best at anything that's relevant. But why are you changing the subject so dramatically from some general statements to this nitpicking? It sounds a bit like saying (not implying you meant it that way): "Wait a second - your arguments are good and all, BUT: can you find a build that can deal more than 100 damage with a two hander with a single crit at level 4 - twice per encounter? You can't? Haha - there you go! All your arguments from before are wrong because you can't do this special task, nah nah nah nah!". Besides a paladin with Firebrand maybe no one can deal such hits at lvl 4. That doesn't mean the paladin is the strongest dps class or good at anything else than doing strong hits twice per encounter with FoD & Firebrand. Now I'm pretty sure you do not want to accept the challenge. The reasons remain concealed...

All in all I find the Adra Beetle to be the most useful I guess. I never use summons in party play and only do solo runs here and there - so I'm really no expert on using summons.

Possibly a barb who attacks a mob and a monk who uses Torment's Reach on a mob. But what does it matter to find some small niche (dual wielding on crit weapons that you find very late in the game without buffs and so on) where rogues are good? In theory, a priest for example could crit more reliably with the right talents and spells that are inherent to his class. He will buff himself to +40 ACC with two spells and add +20% hit to crit conversion with another. Then he uses this bonuses to attack in melee - which is the worst choice... But what is it good for to find those unimportant niches? If it's great single target CC you are looking for, a fighter will be better, reliably able to prone even dragons. A monk, being able to use Stunning Blows, Skyward Kick and Force of Anguish, can deliver CC more reliably, too. Especially because such abilities get +1 to accuracy per level while using on-crit effects don't. But why discuss those minor matters? We want to determine if rogues are the weakest class and no. 1 single target guy. I have the impression you want to chicken out of the challenge.

They are considered to be hazards and hazards have an inherent acc bonus. So they will hit good enough. Also keep in mind that every spell and ability gets +1 ACC per char level.

It's because you don't have to pay for food, water, a home, the doctor and clothing. Why would you buy clothing when everything you find automatically fits you? It would be really tedious to care and pay for those things in a RPG though.

Welcome to the forum! I hope you will have as much fun with this game as I do - well, maybe that's an evil curse if I think about it. It gets a whole lot easier once you understand the underlying mechanics better.

Maybe that one level is not enough. You need 9 skill points from 9 to 10 if I'm not mistaken. You can use resting bonuses (stronghold or an inn - don't know which one) and/or a rite of hidden wonders, too. That should be quicker.

If you want to build a melee character you have a choice between a fighter, paladin, rogue, barb, monk, cipher, ranger, druid, wizard, chanter and priest. Because you can build a good melee char out of every class. The one good thing that rogues have though is that their key features work in melee as well as in ranged combat. They are still the weakest class and not best at anything (besides mechanics and using damaging spells). You can tell me what your rogue does best the whole day and I will tell you that another class can do it better. There's no point in discussing this further if we are not willing to prove it somehow. By the way I never said that rogues can't work well for you and others. They do good single target damage and therefore can be great for certain situations. I play rogues myself - it's not that I resent them. I used the rogue (in this case Devil of Caroc) for a decent, tanky Badgradr's-Barricade-build as one of the first here in the forum for example. It's good and fun to play. But that wasn't what we started with. You said that rogues are somewhere in the upper "power tier" of your perception and experience (fair enough if your experience and the way you play the game lead you to that impression). I then said that rogues are the weakest class and you said they aren't. You said that rogues are no. 1 damage dealers by far and I said they aren't. Of course someone is wrong and the other is right. I once had this exact same argument, but the other way round: somebody said that a druid does better single target damage and I was very sure that a rogue is better. He then posted some screenshots of his druid and I rebuild it and compared it to some melee rogues - with dual annihilating sabres, with Tall Grass, with Hours of St. Rumbalt, with Firebrand, with Tidefall, with dual Rimecutters (possibly the highest DPS setup for autoattacks), with dual Bittercut and dual Drawn in Spring even. After I tried all those very special things I never said that rogues are no. 1 single target damages dealers again. So that's why I suggested the challenge. If you are 100% sure that you are right then this is the way to show me once and for all that rogues are not the weakest class in the game (the only exception is a rogue who specializes in damaging scrolls and spell bindings, like the Sorcerer's Apprentice build. But this is not the kind of rogue most people mean anyway when discussing about rogues). So, what about the duel? No point in discussing this further. I'm very confident and willing, what about you?

Yes - and you need a character with 10 mechanics minimum while you are stealthed.

The magma blight does pretty decent damage (for a figurine summon).

Paladins only have 20 base deflection. With a shield that has Preservation (the first one can be found in Endless Paths lvl 5 - drake) and any other item with that same enchantment (like Blaidh Golen hide armor - Brackenbury Snatorium) you can get +100 to all defenses when prone or stunned. This will prevent the priest frm getting killed if he gets stunned or prone and can't cast buffs.

Yeah, but giving 6000 pands to Serel for example is the most expensive way to solve that quest.

Then you don't know how to use other classes. He is far and away the weakest class at the end of the game. And dps is not top notch because it's limited to single target damage. And even in this department there will be better choices - as I showed you. That's the main problem of the rogue: he's not "the best" at anything while being really squishy and not versatile at all. If you look at the game from start to finish it may be that he can be ranked no. 1 single target damage dealer by a small margin - because he already starts with Sneak Attack which is awesome to have so early in the game. But even then he is not overwhelmingly better at that. It doesn't balance out his flaws. Especially in the mid to late game he falls behind quickly compared to other classes. Speaking of damage: the problem with the character sheet is that certain effects don't find their ways into the statistcs. For example the damage of the animal companion doesn't count towards the ranger's damage. A well skilled ranger with a equally well skilled wolf for example will do hier single target dps than a rogue. Same with a chanter's Dragon chant. By the way the druid doesn't need weapons with on-crit effects. He can achieve the same things with spells, like Returning or Relentless Storm for example. The first is also available per encounter. He only needs to stun an opponent - which is easy - and then hit him with his claws. Crits will follow. But I guess we could talk about this forever and you wouldn't believe me. We've had this discussions several times and it leads to nothing. I will not convince you unless you see in game what I mean. So I challenge you: Show me any rogue build who's good at something (single target damage, single target CC... whatever comes to mind) and I'll show you another class with a build that can do it equally well or better. Show some screenshots or a video how he performs - for example do a hefty (but not too hefty, we don't want to dabble in consumables all the time) encounter like Nalrend's Bounty or his gang in front of the cave and solve it with a rogue and I will show you the same encounter with another class, doing it better. It doesn't have to be solo - you can bring one or two tanks to distract and draw aggro a bit. Or whatever we agree on. I could also start and show you a build and you can counter with a rogue build - how you like it. Let's duel!

That's a quite nice solution, yes. But I'm totally fine with unlimited ammo for shooting gear in PoE so far.

I did finish PoE so many times I lost track of it. BUT the OP has truth in it: in my first play through I also nearly stopped right after reaching Twin Elms. There is a sudden drop in motivation, a break in the game flow, whatever. What kept me going was this forum. More precisely the character builds subforum. It's fun to build powerful, quirky or even game breaking characters and try them out, then posting them here and discuss. Actually the last part is most fun I guess. So I would say what kept me going all this time is the forum and not the game itself. Although I like it a lot, too.

Usually I have so much money after Readric's Castle and two levels of the Endless Paths that I don't have to think about it at all for the rest of the playthrough. The secret is: kill every hostile creature and sell all the loot you get. You don't need to sell unique stuff. Also sell traps and healing potions if you don't need them. Usually Xaurips and especially the guards and paladins in Raedrics Castle drop so much stuff that you can sell that money shouldn't be an issue. Spoiler ahead: If you still lack cash after that you can choose to side with the Doemenel family and get 10k pands for assassinating a Crucible Knight.

Because I'm awake now anyways I searched for the discussion and also found some nice screenshots within it: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/90814-pleading-for-rogue-buff-once-more/page-2?do=findComment&comment=1869590 Whatever - I think most of us agree that the priest may be no. 1 on the power level. He can do anything: buffs, damage, healing - only CC is a bit meh. Doesn't matter if rogue carries the red lantern or not.

Yes. And my druid hits consistently for 100 damage and more. Wildstrike Shock, Greater Wildstrike Shock, Wildstrike Belt, Heart of the Storm, Savage Attack, Avenging Storm and either boar or cat form and your per hit damage will be higher than a rogue's, your speed will most likely be higher and you won't need afflictions for deathblows and stuff and you will have innate DR bypass, too. If I want I put on the Sanguine Plate or take Outlander's Frenzy and add a bit more MIG, but that's not really important. Don't know what you did with your druid, but it's wrong if you wanted to focus on spiritshift. This discussion has been done so often. Last time in the thread that asks for a rogue buff once more and even there the fiercest defender of rogues (streaker) had to admit that the druid does higher melee DPS than a rogue. I'm on my phone and too lazy and also too tired of that discussion again to link to that thread. Sure, it's only while shifted - but a rogue also can't sustain Deathblows all the time and besides that he can't do anything else while the druid casts Relentless Storm and Plague of Insects and all other enemies (around that one whom he clawed to death) are stunned and die. Monk is the same. Maybe he can't reach the damage per hit of a rogue with deathblows 100% of the time, bit once he accumulated 10 wounds and uses Turning Wheel, Lightning Strikes, Blood Testament Gloves and uses Scion of Flame and maybe also Heart of the Storm with a shocking lash on a weapon he will have 60% burning lash, 30% + 30% shocking lash and 20% raw lash. Since lashes are more powerful than mere weapon based DMG bonuses like Deathblows (multiplicative DMG bonus instead of additive) this is already better damage per hit than a rogue's. But as I said it's not possible to have have that all the time. But then he also has awesome CC capabilities and Torment's Reach which adds another 50% crushing lash. If one says that a rogue is more powerful than a monk he simply doesn't know how to play a monk. That's my personal experience. I hold no grudge against rogues - I would like if they get buffed a bit. But my opinion after lots of hours of char building, testing, console magic and party play as well as solo play, hanging around and discussing in the forum is that rogues are the weakest class by far.

You can even add Shiekds for the Faithful (+25) because Devotions and Circle of Defense stack with it. That would put you on 200 deflection without a ring of protection (+9) or the Cloak of the Master Mystic (+12). Frightened, dazed and Devotion's ACC debuff should stack. The first two definitely do. You can add blinded (-25 ACC, Searing Seal) to the mix, too.