Elric Galad

Well, BT triggering twice doesn't exactly make them poor.

Both have 2 effects, but CB version of NegateNextRecovery has no duration. RecoveryTimeMultiplier might have to be removed from BT to reduce the number of Recovery to 1. With a little luck it might cause them to stack since they would use different effects..

So BT adds 2 charges, CB adds 1, and they don't stack. That makes current CB completely useless if one has BT (which most barbarians should take if able - Tier VII are limited for Multiclass). That would make my change useless on kill but still better on other blows. Just had a look at the code. Both trigger 2 effects called "RecoveryTimeMultiplier" and "NegateNextRecovery". I suppose for some reasons (resolution priority ?) BT apply both and negates 2 recovery while crushing blow can apply only one (most likely because attack is still in progress while "RecoveryTimeMultiplier" is applied ?) I'll have a look at this. Maybe some fix is possible, maybe not. Maybe the easiest fix is to add "BT has a chance to negates 2 recoveries" to the ability text ahah ! Thank you for your testing.

Energized procs on every Crit, it is not weapon only.

Well, I think it works. However, if they don't, it might not be the easiest change to implement. They would only apply at the same time if you get a kill with Crushing Blow. If you get a kill without it or if you use it without a kill, only 1 applies so they would not apply together that often. I agree with your point but I wanted to keep something close from the current effect. Sorry if I didn't answer the first Time you suggested about health tier, but I didn't think it was technically possible. It might be. I can't claim full knowledge of gamedata files. It would surely be complicated to implement. What could work is a partial refund versus bloodied or near death target (state at the beginning of the attack) This would be arguably inferior to Crushing Blow skipping recovery IMHO.

I think yes. Blood Thirst has a duration, can stack a couple of charges and is cumulative with similar effect afaik. I will have to check if this concept design works correctly in game. Barbaric Smath On Kill refund works only on main hit afaik, Carnage don't trigger refund. Unless you use AoE weapons, Carnage won't hit you main target anyway. Your question is valid in this case, though. So Boeroer clarification is good to know. OK, not 100% sure it's easy to do but can try anyway. I think Clear Out & upgrades have a similar problem too, so I'll put both of them on my list.

Hehe, nice to hear that I wasn't the only one to consider St. Ydwen's Redeemer on a barbarian as Concelhaut party's Kryptonite. I think I agree with Boeroer on this : this would have too many consequences, and would most likely break the MC system (Barbarian + Rogue...) I was thinking about adding Crit to Carnage as a part of Accurate Carnage buff (+5 ACC=>+10 ACC, can crit) because of Bood Frenzy indeed. I wasn't sure of the consequences, especially for Slayer's Claw + Berzeker combo (Energized works on every Crit), but it wouldn't be that better than WoEP/Citzal/Wahai Porage + Energized anyway. I don't think Carnage is tagged as weapon or melee so it shouldn't have that many interactions. By the way, my current proposal for Barbaric Blow : Barbaric Blow : No PR and Damages bonus (too unfocused) 75% Crit chance +75% Bonus Crit damages +200% Carnage AoE (approximately taking it to Medium size – 2,5 radius) Meant to be used as a crit generator. Not extremely original, but I couldn't add a push effect cause it would mess with Full Attacks... The Damage level of the ability is lower than Accurate Wounding Shot (if PR is not counted) which is meh for a 2 rages ability, but the upgrade should be nice enough. Crushing Blow No recovery Note that instant damage ability spamming is already in the barbarian Portfolio thanks to Spirit Tornado. I'm not 100% sure that is not OP, but I think this may lead to interesting combo such as Black Jacket's instant debuffing. Barbaric Smash +2 Rage on Kill X2 Carnage damages So in case of Overkill, you still get a benefit from using the ability.

Arguably, the only classes/races that should be added are priest of each deity and indeed godlikes too (but probably not more than 1 type, or it would be too much). I like the concept of Cipher/Corpse Eater : "First, I'll feed my power with your soul. Then I'll devour your body."

That’s funny to hear because I was thinking the opposite way last week : I’m working as an Engineer, but not Dev Engineer. I have some programming to do from time to time, maybe once every 5 years, for simulation tools or stuff like this, but it is rather limited. I have also spent my last 2 years of “personal hobby time” at writing. Which is rather different from coding , except for the “I like doing my little stuff” part. Therefore, when I started modding and managed to get a couple of things working, I thought that it was quite refreshing to deal with some Logical problem solving. That’s why I feel quite motivated for PoE2 tweaking at the moment, of course when I find time to do so (my daughter has just started walking, so micromanaging her is becoming more complex given her soft AR vs Pierce, Crush, Slash, Electrical, Fire, Cold and Acid ; I don’t want to play Hylea’s challenge, it would remind me too much IRL). So if you need a hand for coding some CP improvements, just tell me. Even if I’m working on my own mod, I’m willing to use CP as a basis, so addressing some issues within the CP will ultimately make no difference for me. The trinkets may be a bit above my learning curve for the moment, but I think I would ultimately be able to do it. But, hey, CP has been Phenomenum’s and your mod (and also MaxQuest’s obviously), so it’s up to you to decide what you want to do about it

OK, so you will be able to release it for next version of CP aren't you ? Or do you need absolutely require MaxQuest to upload a new version ?

I can't find anything about Fury in the CP files. I'm pretty sure you spoke about it in the CP thread (that's why I noted it as a back-up). If he corrected it, it might be in his own local version.

It's easy to test anyway. Indeed. This one shall stay as it is. Ok, to be checked.

I could investigate on this maybe. Also Concussive Shot seems to have the same problem according to previous posts. Ranger is the next class on my list ^^ Strike the Bell too, but I fear this one could be due to Strike the Bell Attack filters, so harder to tweak. Also I remember Something weird about Fury form Attack not being categorized as weapon, but I'm not sure it is related to the topic.

No it isn't. AoE Weapons + Debuff are back.

Great success story by the way. I even bought it myself and liked it. On another topic, BG2 is also more casual friendly than PoE, even with its trap builds. Some battles are about as tactical as PoE, but most battles are close Hack & Slash (if you go Fighter-heavy parties). Some part of it is just piling Shiny Sword like Diablo 2 (even if Magical items felt more than a bunch of stats). Even if BG2 is not exactly for Casual Gamers, it was certainly closer to it than PoE 1&2.

Thanks, your feedbacks have been very helpful !

At some point in the discussion, I think I switched to brainstorming mode and started to think about more changes than what I initially intended. Barbarian aren't bad, even as Single Class. My last playthrough with full Barb Serafen was basically a mix between your style and Boeroer's : I spammed Spirit Tornado and Driving Roar all the time. The initial idea was to buff a bit other abilities, but I initially didn't intend major rework of the class as a whole. I'll stick to this and keep it simple. Only Barbaric blow needs a true rework, the rest can be limited to tuning. No need to additional defensive abilities for Barbarians. Decreasing cost of savage deviance is a problem because one of the upgrade would make it 1 Rage. I think I'm going to double its duration (EDIT : or less, I may undevalue Robuste), and set the Concentration Gain to +3 for Savage Courage. Still comitting to use (especially in front of Weakening foes), but more "cost-efficient". Yeah, HoF either one-shot groups of clumped Zombies (so cost isn't even significant) or is overcosted in suboptimal conditions. So 3 Rages is fine and will align it with Whirling Strikes. IoRB for 2 Rages sounds good. EDIT : Also adding "Fire" Keyword. Ok ! Small problem : I think Push will mess with Full Attacks. My ideas for the moment (without numbers because this is not the most important) : Barbaric Blow : Currently, it has 5 different effects (+PL damage multiplicator), but none justifies its cost nor is defining enough. I think I'm going to remove PR and damage bonus so I can have it focus on more defining stuff. Carnage AoE is not meaningful but it is at least unique. Might be increased to +300% AoE (double radius) but I'm not sure. EDIT : not for the base ability. I'll focus mostly on +% Crit Chance and + Crit damage. It might not worth 2 Rages but then there is upgraded version. Crushing Blow : Idea is to make it Ignore Recovery. 100% chance, no check. I think THIS will be defining enough AND consistent with Holy Grenade playstyle. Barbaric Blow initial stats would have to be checked to avoid OPness, of course. Barbaric Smash : I'm getting headache at trying to associate Refund with something. On Kill : maybe not worth the trouble. On Crit : too powerful with +% Crit Chance and too close from Gambit... Gatecrasher Effect on Hurt or Above would be tempting... EDIT : I think the easiest way would be to keep the refund on kill AND to increase the carnage AoE and damages (double damages and radius ?). This way, even if using Barbaric Smash on low health target results in an overkill, you're still getting something for using it. I personnally think Wild Sprint upgrades are Okay, even if not that great. Leap shall stay at 2 Rages to avoid being a direct concurrent to Wild Sprint. What I'm considering is to replace 6s Dazed by 4s Stun. Barbarian already has access to a 4s Hard CC through Spirit Tornado, so this is just another option. It will be consistent with Barbarian specialization toward MIG affliction. It would also avoid redundancy with Dazing Shout. EDIT : I'm also thinking about downgrading a Tier IX ability to Tier VIII because Tier IX is really crowded. Possibly Blood Surge, because it helps all build. Blood Surge may also be buffed to 50%, as Community Patch did to its Paladin Equivalent (they also removed the On Kill effect from killed ally, which makes sense so if Blood Surge has the same issue, I will make the change too).

Good to know. I didn't specifically say that resurrecting the old Sickening presence would be a solution. Barbarian already has too many Tier 1 Afflictions... I can be everything. Why not a shackle-like effect that would trigger Immobilized in melee range ? "I'm your opponent" as would say Manga Characters. The condition to trigger it in a balanced way would have to be discussed of course.

OK, what is/could be the role of Barbarian then : - Off-Tanking : even if not a dedicated Tank like Fighter and Paladin, Barbarian is still good enough to reliably absorb damages. The limit is : Barbarian has bad Deflection, so it's hard to make him into a dedicated Tank. But with High HP Pool, easy access to CON inspiration, AR buff (and Dazing Shout for single Class), Unflichting, I think they're high enough on the tanking ladder (behind Fighter, Paladin, Trickster and dedicated Wiz, etc...). They have a rather easy access to extra Engagement, though I think aggroing too much is probably a bit suicidal (as Vengeful Defeat suggests). Only thing that they might be missing for this role is probably a reasonable Rage cost-efficiency for Savage Defiance. - Single Target damage : Not bad since Barbarian are a martial class and Frenzy helps a lot. But is not and should not be Barbarian speciality. - AoE Damage : Should have been of the class focus, but I would say it is only for Single Class Barbarian (Heart of Blunderbuss or Driving Roar vocal cannon). For MC, Barabaric Blow is meh and Carnage is not enough. I like spamming Spirit Tornado though : Instacast + scaling as a PL1 ability is suprisingly good for a bit of AoE DPS. Although I would advocate for a bit more cost efficiency for Tier VIII - Tier IX (except the blessed Shout ultimates of course), I think it is not a big flaw of the class as a whole. Carnage is good enough as a passive (PoE1 version would cause stupidly overpowered Multiclass), I think it should be supported by active abilities. However, accurate carnage is a tad weak as it is, and could be buffed a bit... maybe ? This should be Barbaric Blow role to support the AoE component Barbarian. But how ? And how it could avoid being a simple "weaker version of HoF" ? Barbaric Blow may have its own stronger version of Carnage (in the range of 100% weapon damage). Not sure of the exact use and values, but after checking the files, I think it's at least technically feasible. So feel free to investigate this possibility. - Mobility : with leap and wild sprint, I think barb has what needed. Leap could be used for other purpose though... - Debuffing / Crowd Control : should be another focus of the class, but is vaguely okayish at the moment. Barbarian has access to some interrupt (good enough for this part), some pushes, a nice instacast AoE Terrify, Staggered, Shaken and the longest Daze effect. Too few effects, debuffing the same stats (not INT, DEX, CON and PER afflictions) and too much Tier 1 that can be easily resisted. Some ideas : Leap is vaguely Okayish for 2 Rage. 6s Dazed could be replaced by something else, from a short Stun to a long Disoriented (Dazed feels a bit redundant with Dazing Shout). One of the Yell upgrade (Roar line ?) could be change to inflict Confuse (or Distracted, etc...). Not really better but still nice to avoid redundant debuff in a party. Maybe Barbarian lack a passive like the old PoE1 Threatening presence Barbaric blow upgrades could be completely reworked to inflict a debuff... on the whole Carnage AoE. Weakened, Dazed, I don't know exactly which ones, but it would be an option.

Is there a metric about the proportion of refund on Steam ? If yes, is it different from other games ? Also what the harsher start ? A tree with multiple corpses hanging on it in a Time of chaos where babies are born without a soul ? OR Gorecci Street ?

As you wish. This thread is the one where people were historically discussing balance, so it makes sense to continue discussing there. I started my mod at a time when it seemed CP wasn't going to evolve. CP is still the reference for balancing abilities (As you can see, my own mod is less "conservative"), so it is probably better to discuss here about an ability for which everyone agree that something has to be done. Furthermore, Barbarian will be a bit later in my plan, so if CP makes some change I won't have to address this myself

Well, 0 Recovery is a bit quirky to balance. 1 Zeal would be too less. What can be reasonable is to set Courageous/Robust duration to 12s. I usually "benchmark" single target 1 ressource instant buff with Disciplined Strikes (GLoH don't add cast time so and cost +1 Zeal so it is in this category). Disciplined Strikes upgrade provide a Tier 3 Inspiration, last 15s, is Tier 1, isn't part of another ability and add Concentration but is Self Target only so I would say they would feel balanced. To quote myself from another thread : there's a recurring problem with Tier VII or below abilities that have a Tier VIII or Tier IX upgrade. They have to be good enough for MC, but should not become OP when upgraded. The upgrade itself has to be significant because it costs a High Level ability point. Tricky equation. Hastening Exho upgrades are neat for 1 Zeal. Nimble is a very poweful tactical tool, and Quick + Strong would fit a backrow DPS character that doesn't have access to these inspiration. I think 20s is strong enough for them, I would even say powerful. The unupgraded version would still be situationnally useful on said on a Backrow character (especially Cipher and Druid), but you'll have to go Single Class to get the full benefit.

It used to be the case, but not anymore. I think this is the reason behind this small Glitch : they haven't properly added to Upgraded From tag when they changed it.

I've just given you a bunch of (already working) potential changes to review on another thread. I'm ready for tuning. Barbarian was among the first class on my list, but I admit I had no clear idea of what to do with Barbaric Blow, so it's nice to read some brainstorming.

Hi everyone, I have just started working on my own mod which will aim at making the game more balanced. The balance between various classes is currently quite good, but most players would agree that there are currently "good" and "bad" abilities. (Please note that this mod is designed for RtwP. Some of the changes should work for TB but I haven't tested them.) My main objectives are the following : - Make most abilities worth including in a build, - Ensure that Tier VIII and Tier IX are interesting enough to go Single Class, - Ensure diversity of possible builds for each classes, - Correct a couple of weird mechanics to make them more consistent with generic rules. The Community Patch really did a good job toward these objectives. ( https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/335 ) Therefore, I don't want to override most of what they already did, so I will start from this basis. (there are a couple of changes that I will override though, for various reasons explained in this thread) Please note that there would be a couple of nerfs included in the mod. As this is a Single Player game, people may not like this, so I will deliver them in a separate package (some abilities with major rework will also be part of this separate package). These changes are in red below. As I fear powercreeping, I think the mod would feel more "legit" with these nerfs. The first part of my mod is about Fighters, Paladins and Chanters. All the changes below have already been implemented and quickly tested to ensure their technical feasibility. However, I really wished I could get other people opinions before "officially" releasing the mod. A) Fighter A common problem with Martial Classes is that the raw power per ressource of their abilities scales poorly. Abilities that cost 2+ more ressources often don't bring that much compared to 1 ressource ones. This is even more true for Tier VIII and Tier IX abilities that are intended to be Single Class specialities, but are often less efficient than low level ones. The problem is not so relevant for fighters though, so I only had to buff a couple of their abilities. Inspired Discipline : 3 Discipline -> 2 Discipline (this is intended to be a bit of a reward buff for Fighters going Single Class) Power Strike & Inspired Strike : 4 Discipline -> 3 Discipline 6s Stun -> 8s Stun 6s Staggered -> 8s Staggered Inspired Discipline 10s Acute & Swift -> 15s (this is intended to be a bit of a reward buff for Fighters going Single Class) Take the Hit : 4s Recovery -> 0s Recovery (A Tier IX ability that only redirect damages feels a bit weak if it also takes time to use) Into the Fray & Upgrades : 2 Discipline -> 1 Discipline 10 – 14 damages -> 5 – 10 damages (This is meant to make this ability more focus on the tactical pull part. Damages are tuned down to avoid instant damage spamming) Mule Kick : Most upgrades use the PL of the original ability. A PL 3 upgrade of a PL 1 ability used by a PL5 character will for example get a scaling of +4. There was a glitch that counted Mule Kick as PL3 instead of PL1, so I corrected it for ruleset consistency. This basically gives Mule Kick +2 PL. B) Paladin According to what I've read, people tend to consider Paladins get most of their goodies at low level. Mid to High level abilities are often mediocre, which is especially bad for Single Class. I especially find that Commands needed a bit of rework (bar the rez command) : I love the idea of a Paladin yelling its (instacast) commands in the middle of the battleground. However, their high ressource cost (2 zeal) make them not very flexible. That's why I changed them to 1 zeal. I had to tune down a bit their duration as a consequence, but I really think this new version would make them more appealing to use. Light of Pure Zeal : 5 Zeal -> 4 Zeal Exorcism : 4 Zeal -> 3 Zeal Healing Chain (complete rework) : 2 Zeal Range 5m + 4m Jump Friendly Target + 50 Bounce (yes, 50) Heal 10 health per bounce (no reduction per bounce) Can bounce several time on the same target (0,3s delay)Why I changed this ability : Hastening Exhortation & Upgrades : 2 Zeal -> 1 Zeal 30s Duration -> 20s Liberating Exhortation & Upgrades : 2 Zeal -> 1 Zeal 20s Duration -> 10s (This ability didn't receive a big boost compared to other commands, but hostile effect requiring it rarely needs more than 10s suspension, especially with INT and PL scaling. I think the ability now fits better its main objective) Reinforcing Exhortation & Upgrades : 2 Zeal -> 1 Zeal 12s Duration -> 10s Glorious beacon & Upgrades : 3s/4s Cast -> 0,5s/4,5s Cast 1,5m AoE -> 2,5m AoE 8s Duration -> 12s Duration (unupgraded is now comparable in power with Cipher's Eyestrike, a mere Tier I ability. However, Glorious beacon upgrades are very good) Sacred immolation & Upgrades : 4 Zeal -> 3 Zeal 32 raw damages per tick -> 20 damages (I wanted to align the AoE of all Paladins Point Blank abilities. That's why I didn't use the 3,5m radius from Community Patch) Wrath of the Fives Suns (Pallegina special ability) : Penetration : 7->12 (tribute to PoE1 DR Bypass) Penetration properly scale with PL (currently it does not) Damages : 5-7 -> 5->15 (x5 Projectiles) EDIT : 2 Zeal -> 1 Zeal (Yes, it is powerful, but properly not more than the 2x14 AoE heal that Wayfarers gain with their FoD...) C) Chanter Chanters don't have many "true" problems. However, there were many weird stuff with their abilities. For example, a couple of upgrades that cost more than the original ability. IMHO, upgrades should always be strictly better. I really think this is something the devs completely forgot after correcting a few of them, because the only ones left don't really feel that much better than their unupgraded version. Then, I wanted to boost a bit Single Summons, that felt a bit less appealing than their numerous counterparts, especially Ancient Weapons. Finally, I wanted to boost their Ressource reloading Invocation to give an alternative to Cipher for replenishing ressource pools. This was also meant to give Single Class Chanter an additional and convincing role. Oh, and I also implemented a Troubadour Nerf (following a @Boeroer recommandation from a couple of months ago) because the subclass is just too good compared to other ones. Troubadour : Brisk Recitation phrase take 4s instead of 3s. ...and Their Screams Reached The Heavens (Wurms Summon upgrade) : 4 Phrases -> 3 Phrases (as unupgraded version) Set to Their Purpose, They All Knew Their Part : 6 Phrases -> 5 Phrases (as unupgraded version) (this was justified when it provided Brillant...) Far from Defeated, His Heart Filled with Joy : 6 Phrases -> 5 Phrases (as unupgraded version) +3 Phrases -> +2 Phrases Far from Defeated, His Heart Filled with Joy and Their Companion Braved the Horde Alone are considered Offensive instead of Non-Offensive (I really thought that this ability was too aligned with Skald style of play and "feeling" to ignore. Therefore, I choosed to boost it for Skald instead of boosting it for other Chanters.) Drake, Spore and Dragon summons (and their Upgrades) : 25s duration -> 35s His Hunt for Revenge, Eternal (Ghost summon upgrades) : 25s duration -> 45s ...Each Kill Fed His Fury : Contrary to the ability it is upgraded from, this ability provides mere +5 stats boost instead of inspirations. As it seemed really random, I replaced the stat boost by actual Strong, Fit and Steadfast Inspirations. Boil Their Flesh From Skin to Bone & Upgrade : Secondary Cones replaced by simple 2,5m radius AoE. This enables the Acid Explosion to be properly centered on the victim. (Thanks to @thelee Gamefaq, I learned that the secondary Cones originated from the caster instead of from the actual victim. This seems to be because the game isn't able to manage secondary cones (probably because the code can't get the orientation of the cone...)) His Laughter Rang Through the Halls : 8s Daze -> 20s Interrupt on Hit -> Interrupt on Graze His Heart Did Fill With the Light of the Dawn : +1 Ressource -> +2 Ressources Does not affect the caster anymore. If you want to give it a try, feel free to use the "Beta" files below. (However please note that all the Ability Descriptions in-game may not have been properly updated and that the current version of the files may conflict with other mods.) BalancePolishingModBuffs.zip BalancePolishingModNerfs.zip How to install :