Elric Galad

The problem with Dragon Leap and Echoing shout is that they are not that much better than Barbarian basic attack with a good weapon

From the very beginning of RPG, Paladin are looking for their own destiny beyond being a priest/fighter hybrid. PoE didn't completely succeed at it. Immolation is for me the only ability that sounds completely paladin. And maybe sworn ennemy. The rest is mostly "priest stuff variant". That does not mean class is badly designed in PoE by the way. That's more a reccuring pb in the whole RPG planet. They are quite ok as they are. Furthermore, lore-wise, their background in PoE is really excellent.

I personally don't like that much on-kill effect. I find it a bit too circonstancial as a core class mechanic. Not a problem to have a couple of effects based on it by the way. Wasn't infinite cast spell steal from morningstar modified in the change list of 3.02 ?

Maybe you could have a word about classes too : for me, having a Priest for the first run greatly help. Having a wizard and/or a druid will greatly help too.

It's not specifically about Might. +3 Might bonus was not even meant to be an optimal value (there are +3 and +4 helmet for might, or you can easily get +2/+1 to 2 stats, etc...). But I'm not saying you shouldn't play a Death Godlike. They are a cool concept. I'm saying that I would boost the 3 following races, for example : Mountain Dwarf : resistance to poison and illness is a why not, but I find it much more circonstancial and less critical than Aumaua resistance to Prone and Stun. I would count it as an equivalent to one of these resistance. For me, mountain dwarf should get +20 to poison, illness AND petrify. Death Godlike : Their ability is thematically nice but rather weak compared to the loss of a helmet. I would add +15 Acc against Kiths. Now that would be a death emissary. Bane of their own kind. We would understand even better that they had troubles to make friends at school. Nature Godlike : I would simply rise their bonus so it would become really significant. +6 to Mig, +3 Con, + 3 Dex when under 50%.

Sorry, it's poney in french and I thought it was the same in english... Yup, a mod would be a good solution if Obsidian doesn't listen to my desperate call I suppose moding would become far more easy now that the game is stable.

It is a stupid joke, but your topic led me to think about creating a "Sworn and Bored" Paladin for roleplay.

Thank you. I think I got lost on format coming from previous quotation. I think it is purged now, please tell me if you still have troubles to read it.

Please, what the hell kinda post is that. I mean, really, "many abilities [...] are not that good." , that's your whole argument here ? Perhaps you could detail which abilities and how they are not good ? Every class has abilities that "are not good" to be honest. While I agree rogues could use more love because they're super squishy for very questionable DPS relative to other classes, you really need to work on your argument here o_O You're right. I admit I've relied on what I said on previous threads, in particular, The Great Rogue Polishing Thread that I published some times ago. I'm pretty happy that what I said in the rogue topic was (usually) approved by viewers. I'll try to group my views in a new thread soon, as my opinions about barbarians and rogues seem to be (mostly) shared. OK, so I've created a new thread with more precise statements about Rogues and Barbarians. This is the logical follow-up of this thread. Except, well, it's my views I hope it could be a way to cause a final balance patch (not strictly necessary but nice) !

So, Patch 3.02 is here and we should not expect much evolution to current classes. That is not a bad news, because according to this topic, people are pretty satisfied with current status : https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/85366-class-balance/ Obsidian did a really nice job. However, according to the same topic, 2 little complaints are risen : - Casters (especially wizard and priest) seem to be a bit more powerful than the rest. Let's say that the limited ressource they have and consumables everybody can use tend to reduce the gap. - Rogue and Barbarian are usually said to be a bit UP. Not that much by the way. The reason behind these complaints about these 2 classes are usually : - Barbarians tend to be a bit one trick poney - Rogues have a short head for single target DPS, but no big gap that will justify their lack of other abilities. - Their high level abilities are not so great. They didn't get uber skill from WM I like Twin Arrows, Immolation, etc... I'm going to propose here some changes. I've tried to make them reflect not only my own opinion, but also other people views. (but yeah, that's subjective). These modifications take into account that Obsidian is currently very unlikey to make big changes to the classes. So I'm not invoking major rework. Furthermore, I used to write a previous Topic called "The Great ( ) Rogue Polishing Thread" and most of the Rogue content below is exctracted from this topic. My views were usually approved (not always... ) on this topic so I'm not too reluctant to re-use them again. Here we go ! Rogue : Rogue is supposed to be the best Single Target DPS. That is quite good because there is nothing less circonstancial than Single Target DPS. The problem is that Ranger 2.0 came and is now a serious threat for Rogue's Reign. Twin Arrow almost double their DPS and the new pet does a ton of damages. I think that currently, both ranger and pet does about 50% of Rogue's damages. And bring a lot more other utility, from secondary target damage to off-tanking. Rogue needs a speciality. My opinion is that Backstab + Invisibility should be able to provide peak damage that ranger would never be able to do. Currently, Backstable does a sheer +150% damage. On a single attack. My opinion is that high level ability should open the way for more backstabs. I'll speak about this below, especially when reviewing Shadow Step and Feign Death. So here are my Proposal to give Rogue’s abilities a bit more of “Wow” : (As most of this content is a copy of my previous thread, I pointed the changes in red.) Blinding Strike : good as it is (for a level 1 ability) Crippling Strike : good as it is (for a level 1 ability) Reckless Assault : good as it is Escape : Mobility skills are not bad, but I think 1/encounter mobility skill does not worth spending one of your few ability point. We’re speaking about something that should be more or less comparable to an entire (low) spell level. Escape would be okay as a talent (By the way shadowing beyond would almost deserve to be an ability as it is almost the ultimate Panic Button skill, with some offensive potential…). My suggestion is simple : Escape could be refreshed on kill. There’s a lot of “on kill” effect since 3.0. I believe the “kill and run concept” would be cool, not OP. It is a bit circonstancial for the refresh part, but still better than 1/encounter. Overall, it would be enough for a level 3 ability. Dirty Fighting : not so powerful. 10% hit to crit sounds great only if you played too much Diablo 3. But this and related talent are interesting for some builds or weapons, like Tall Grass, Hour of St Rumbalt, various axes, etc… I don’t think a change is necessary. Riposte : 20% only on miss is basically too low, especially with Rogue’s poor deflection. You need a shield to make it work, which cripples full attack riposte and overall DPS. In my opinion, Riposte should work also on Graze (to keep the feint/counterattack feeling : “you scratched me but it was a trick”). 20% of graze or miss would lead around 10% Riposte with a few deflection buff (double hatchet hipster rogue, anyone ?). I believe it would be enough to make it valuable. It also means that the riposte rate would be still capped at 20% in the very best case, which prevents some abuse. Note : I think Boeroer loves this one Finishing Blow : I don’t like per rest abilities but I see the point of this one. I think it is ok as it is. Deep Wounds : good as it is Adept Evasion : Sure, Rogue has usually high Per and Dex, but this ability is still very very circonstancial. It works against 17,5% of a specific type attacks (Reflex itself is valued around 1/6 of “all defense”), wouhouh ! D&D equivalent is basically 100% graze to miss. The point is : with 100%, you can build around it, and that’s the most important thing about an ability, even if it’s not crazily powerful. With maxed Dex and Per and 100% adept evasion (and maybe +10 reflex talent), you may throw fireballs and slicken where your rogue stands. Rogue could even be used as decoy with shield (Devil of Caroc decoy, anyone ?). It also makes flanking less constraining for your damage dealing casters. 100% looks big ? Seriously, would a character be really so much tougher with 100% graze to miss reflex ? With only 50% you can’t really build anything around. So my suggestion : change it to 100% ! Coordinated Positioning : Nice ability. Apparently, it was recently buffed to 4m, so I think it's pretty OK as it is now. Persistant Distraction : good as it is. I like this one, fine debuff, and excellent synergy with deathblows. Withering Strike : Not crazily bad, but Weakness is a weaker status than blind overall, and just a bit better than hobbled. This is too weak for a level 9 ability, especially when compared to level 1 ones. 2/Encounter would be ok. Fearsome Strike : Wouhouhouh ! 2 rather weak status ! Once per rest ! as a level 9 ability ! 1/Encounter would be acceptable, and balanced compared to withering strike. This would be a mix of half of level 1 ability and half of level 9 ability, without the same DPS potential due to more limited full attack number. Still not that great. 15s duration would be my suggestion, in order to distinguish it a bit from withering and crippling strike. It won’t make it OP. Deathblows : Crazy enough as it is. Smoke Cloud : Distraction is a nice small effect, crazy accuracy +20 is nice. But duration and range are just bad, especially when combined. My solution : make it the “Rogue Immolation”, a debuffing cloud moving with the rogue, helping him evading blows. I can imagine that. 3s tick, tick during 15s, 5s debuff duration. No need to change AoE. Keep accuracy bonus as it is. Other solution : a big increase in range and duration. Less fun, but less development cost for Obsidian Shadow Step : Currently, You Shadowstep for a cryptic duration (around 8s), and suddenly come back to your initial position. Barbarian and Fighters do have teleport stuff too (charge and dragon leap) at this level that brings additional utility (AoE damage and/or debuff) to the table. Shadowstep is basically harder to control and less rewarding (no additional effect). My idea is that Shadow Step should offer something like 5s invisibility (increased by INT) NOT CANCELLED by attacking. Immunity and peak damages with backstab. It should be a real "Shadow Step" this way. Furthrmore, currently, backstabing from invisibility works only with 1st attack. By giving it a duration, you make it more compatible with rogue favorite styles : Dual Wielding and Tall Grass poking. I don't like the idea of backstabing with a blunderbuss Sap : good as it is. Not awesome for a level 13, but still nice as CC and debuff. Feign Death : Not bad, but 10s of incapacitation on you damage dealer as its ultimate ability, seriously ? 5s duration for the “prone” part would be OK, I think. Then, it should give 6s invisibility (increased by INT) NOT CANCELLED by attacking. Then it would really be an ultimate ability ! Note : Shadowing Beyond should still be cancelled by attacking. Attacking and staying invisible should be only linked to endgame abilities. Barbarian : Barbarians draw equal complaints as Rogue. About them, it is said : - They have many not very good abilities. - They are a bit One Trick Pony, and some capital battles don't involve so much opportunities for them. - Carnage is (almost) universally praised as a very good starting ability. My idea is just that their abilities could be a little more polished. It would heal them from their One-Trick-Poneyness. Some of my ideas are basically copied from "theBaltazar" post. I totally support them so I wrote them down in my own synthesis. However, I can't say I have the "copyright" for them Here is my review : Carnage : Awesome as it is. Frenzy : Ok as it is. Barbaric Yell : basically a rather weak status with good range and ok duration. Barbarian should not try to be be weak casters. However, there is one thing where Martial Class are usually better than caster : action economy. I think Barbaric shouts should emphasize this. I would simply give Barbaric Yell fast cast and no recovery. That would be great. Note that it would be in line with other skills with close concept : Exhortations. Exhortations are supposed to be shouts too after all Savage Defiance : OK as it is. Blooded : OK as it is. Not ooverly powerful, but you can build around it (fire godlike, Revenge, there are good interactions). Wild Sprint : Mobility stuff but not the best. A nice +20% damage for something like 5s would make them more applealing, especially for high level build. Bloodlust : May not be great but at least it should work for Solo game I don't think it requires a change. Brute Force : A bit circonstancial due to usual ennemies high Fortitude but you can build around it. I don't think it requires a change. One Stand Alone : Not so bad, but has an incredible number of bad interactions. Paralyze monster and you loose it. Pick up Eye of the Storm and you loose it. Have a Rogue with distraction you loose it. I'll choose theBaltazar suggetsion : "Should work WITHOUT red arrow (engagement). Active at 1 metter max for exemple. 3 ennemies detected = activate" That would be perfect. Note that it would require 1 more ennemy around so it's not even a hard buff. Thick-Skinned : not useless but rather weak. Armored Grace basically enables 4 more DR with low requirement (wear an armore). Thick-Skinned should be 3 DR against Slash, Pierce and Crush. Still worse than armored grace, but after all, resisting damage is Fighter's special. Threatening Presence : OK as it is. Blood Thirst : Not extremely strong. But you can build around with weapons without Speed Mod (Grey Sleeper, Abydon's Hammer) so I don't think it requires changes. Vengeful Defeat : OK as it is. You can build around it. Barbaric Shout : as for Barbaric Yell : Fast cast, no recovery. For the same reasons. That would be nice. Heart of Fury : Very powerful skills, but damn annoying to have it 1 per rest. Obsidian should not be affraid to provide barbarian high level barbarian a couple of fun tools. This one should simply be 1/encounter. (even 2 per rest would be potentially too strong, and less fun.) Eye of the Strom : OK as it is for some builds, provided One Stand Alone is modified to not take into account only engagement. Currently, this is too much anti-synergetic. Dragon Leap : Not so bad, but dazing is rather weak. Something like 5s prone (not from ground, from air !) would be nice, powerful, and still not OP and will avoid overlap with echoing Shout. Not much more than 5s to avoid becoming more efficient CCer than fighter by the way. Barbaric Retaliation : Not that great but raw damages are very reliable. I think it is ok as it is. Echoing Shout : Not bad, but far too hard to use to be an ultimate skill. As theBaltazar suggested, it would be ok if it avoided friendly fire. Could be nice and fun to use. Furthermore, it would be the only Ennermy AoE wall-bouncing ability of the game. It would be Unique and that's what player expect from high-level content ! So that's all. Anyway class balance is pretty correct as it is. But I cannot resist the appeal of praying Obsidian for even more awesomeness !

OK, it makes a bit more clear some stuff. No one likes cryptic tooltip. Yet, even for Triumphal Paladin, I would still prefer Hearth Orlan and a helmet. Something like +3 Might and 10% hit to crit will do the job, even out of conditional situation.

Sabra Marie should worths it too.

My preferred race for priest are... coastal Aumaua. The first thing I want from a priest is to be reliable. Another glitch I just realized is Godlike for druid : furry mode does not allow helmet anyway. The 3 races I will never play because UP are mountain dwarf, nature and death godlikes. Death godlike damage bonus is about as good as bloody slaughter which means crap ; I supppse it could have minor interest for triumphal paladins build, but I don't find this very appealing in the first place.

The reason why you can consider Paladin "Best for Something" are lay on hand, Reviving Exo and Immolation. Apart for this, paladin are tanky jack of all trades, anf that is god enough like this.

Radiant Spore basically made Boreal Dwarves far more valuable.

There's a generic talent that triggers a poisonnous attack. Some spells like the wizard lvl 5 malignent cloud (I think it's called like this) are also categorized as poison and resisted as such.

Never noticed poison effect being so dangerous. That's why I never had a moutain dwarf in my party. There's a couple spells with poison effects, but I never really noticed them from ennemies. Spiders tend to poison you a lot, but damage are not impressive.

Come on, most people here play PotD but we are absolutelty not representative of real players. Story Mode is a mode for "gothic but not gamer girlfriend", "little brother" or "daddy with time devourer monster in the craddle" or any casual player who just can't haunt thid forum in order to understand if durgan steel stack with alacrity. PoE is not very difficult but with little game knowledge it tends to be very tedious, especially in the beginning.

Speed potion, biggest healing one (always useful to avoid dying of attrition), resurrection scrolls. Scroll of protection against certain afflictions are mandatory for certain encounters if you don't have a priest to cast them. Scroll in general are awesome to compensate for the lack of casters (moonwell, AoE healing, scroll of defense) or to add versatility to your martial class (missile scrolls with your ranger with penetrating shots, paralysis scrolls for everybody). Scroll of valor is also mandatory as it provides what no priest can do : +15 base accuracy, which is about 10 accuracy more that any other AoE Acc boost. Stack with devotion of the faithful. Better to have 1 room for scrolls of valor, than 1 emplacement per character for Eldricht Aim potion. Finally, void slot is nice too as Nature's bounty will fill it with a very powerful potion.

I think I know pretty well how buff stack (there are rules, even if they are cryptic) but debuff are a total mystery. Why stat debuff from sickened and weakness stacks while defenses debuff from the same conditions don't ? From the list above, what would cause the suppression ? I'll be very curious.

Wood elf are number 1 for all ranged builds. Hearth Orlan are good for melee, but there's a lot of contest then. Fire and Moon godlikes are super powreful but you sacrifice helm. I think it worth it for some builds.

I don't know... They seem to care... remember the paladin patch... the 2.0 ranger... I believe they did a pretty much good job till now. Even in PotD. I'm playing both rogue and barbarian in PotD right now and they do their job quite efficiently. Class balance in a party game without PvP isn't meant to be as strict as in MOMRPG. What is needed is that each class should be the best at filling its role in a party, and this role shouldn't be too specific.

Please, what the hell kinda post is that. I mean, really, "many abilities [...] are not that good." , that's your whole argument here ? Perhaps you could detail which abilities and how they are not good ? Every class has abilities that "are not good" to be honest. While I agree rogues could use more love because they're super squishy for very questionable DPS relative to other classes, you really need to work on your argument here o_O You're right. I admit I've relied on what I said on previous threads, in particular, The Great Rogue Polishing Thread that I published some times ago. I'm pretty happy that what I said in the rogue topic was (usually) approved by viewers. I'll try to group my views in a new thread soon, as my opinions about barbarians and rogues seem to be (mostly) shared.

And 10 accuracy, dude. Your powergamerness should scream for some flagellant workouts. It's eventually better for you that there's no whip in this game...

DPS paladin seems to be a recurring obsession since the beginning of PoE. The point is that the class is not suited to do that. There are some Sniper paladin build around here (Pallegina being the best) but not reallt melee knight to do so. Abandon your idea of a DPS knight, or just choose another class to do so like an armed monk maybe. Dual wielding for FoD full attack might have some potential, and vent pick FoD seems to work with FoD talents (?) so there might be a bit of potential in this direction.