Elric Galad

I think someone on this forum did test HoF + Spelltongue and confirmed it works.

Like Diet Coca, Diet HoF might be more dangerous for your health.

Does HoF give crit bonus damages ? Are you sure you're not speaking about Barbaric blow ? I thought HoF gives only bonus damages.

Yes, in Diablo 3, the ressource mechanics were mostly the same. My point is that there aren't that many ways of managing ressources without having some of them relying on obscure mechanics, or having some of them slightly redundant (But I have to admit having the same ressource management system for druid and priest, and even wizard, wouldn't hurt at all. This is currently the case with per rest system.) But I may lack imagination. There's still no cooldown in PoE, which is a very important way of managing ressources that has not been used yet. Anyway, the hard part in all that it is hard to balance easy and hard encounter. The key point is : how to implement a system where you keep your strongest abilities for the hardest battle ? "Per rest" system was the way it was done on tabletop games, but how to convert it properly for a CRPG ? Ironically, consumables work here because they are a really "limited" ressources.

I like the current rest system. For me, it's an an improvement on the IE style that encourages you to go further on limited abilities without being too different, which is all I wanted. However, moving spell casters to the same resource is just not a good idea. One of the greatest triumphs of the current system is that each class feels and plays differently. Characters really only have three axes of variation: melee vs. ranged; ability resource management; and effects of abilities (damage, healing, status effects). If you remove the ability resource management axis, several classes would feel the effect. Fighters vs. Monks: Their largest effective difference is wounds. Wizard vs. Cypher: Their largest difference is focus. Wizards get confusion mechanics after all. Chanters vs. paladins: They both are tanky, aura buffers. The largest difference is how chanters build and use power. Mana as a solution particularly leaves something to be desired, because in the vast majority of mana systems you either don't use it or you unload the exact same spells at the start of major fights and then potion up. At least spell levels force characters to go up and down spell levels, reacting more to longer fights. I believe this even though I do like the idea of some class gaining resources from deaths. If the devs want to improve the game they should capitalize on the past success of unique classes and now focus on making classes more unique. I partially agree with both of you. I agree that limitating each spell level would really limit the versatility of the caster class is true. This means no combo between spells of the same level. However, I would not COMPLETELY limit versatility as they would be still able to choose from any spells of the tier which is a lot ore versatile than any of the martial class. I'm far less enthusiastic about having a common pool of ressources, because having ressources per tier is what cause qualitative difference between Vancians and Cipher/Chanter/Monk. I like Vancian to have a kind of "drawback". I don't want a game like Diablo 3 where all classes are supposed to have unique ressources, but all ressources ends up sounding more or less the same. And honnestly, mana have been seen a thousand times in other games. Eventually, I don't want the devs to spend too much time in changing Vancians ressource management, because it would require work on their whole spell list to fir their new ressource. It almost mean restarting class design from scratch. That's why I was suggesting 4 per Rest -> 1 per encounter. Otherwise, I don't see Obsidian risking a change. However, I can see it's not an ideal solution. I liked this list of ideas. My own comments : - Druid : this one I don't like. I remember how annoying Stormspell where in BG2, when you had to cast them outside and most of the game was inside dungeons. Howver, a few spell like this would be OK. I would prefer spells taking advantages or more generic stuff like wall-bouncing ones. - Barbarian : why not. It wouldn't fit my own playstyle, but why not. It won't be easy to balance by the way. - Priest : I agree so much that it was the improvement suggestion in my original list - Chanter : I love the idea of bonus linked to how you chain your phrases. For example, there could be a talent called crescendo that gives bonus phrases when chaining phrases of increasing levels. Not sure for rhyme, because either the combo would be too strong, or its absence too weak, but it could be an idea to scale low level phrases. - Wizard : A bit harsh, but I understand your point. I have never switched a grimoire in my 5 runs, and I rarely changed my list between battles.

This point would deserve its own thread. We should create a poll about that. What about simply replacing 4 per rest by 1 per encounter for example ? By keeping the talent giving 1 extra spell (now per encounter) for low level tier, I guess it would be close from ok. (maybe adjusting the required level for these talents would be necessary too) Another solution would be to make it an option like expert mode. Not sure the Devs could afford balancing encounter for both systems, so it would require one of the option to be the "official one".

while also doing this: Yeah. I remember those spells. I remember how stupidly overpowered they were and how mages and sorcerers were on a completely different playing field than other classes toward the end of BG2 and through ToB. You may be right about that. Is is a bit contradictory, my nostlagia about meta-spells in BG2 is cotradictory with my obsession for balance. Maybe by limitating it to the entire tier 10 ? (based on the assumption max level would be 20) Thus it would be somehow balanced by the fact that wizard won't get any other ulimate abilities. Anyway, it would be really hard to balance, I agree.

My own choice would have been Druid + Chanter. Chanter are good tank and incredible damage dealers at high level. Long battle would allow them to benefit from invocations (high level summons, corpse explosion and and paralysis cones are especially good). Spellcasters are strong in this game. Druid are the most versatile ones (damage, CC, healing, and even a bit of buffing), and they probably have the strongest early game of all casters.

For power-gaming side : - Magran's weapon choices are better, especially because of arquebus which is excellent for support and alpha strike. - Magran's bonus spell is better (but bonus spells are not that much game-changing, except early game) - Eotas ultimate spell (8th tier, you'll get it at level 15) is the best of all gods. Magran's one is quite good too (fire-based, so good synergy with scion of flame), but less game changing. Overall, I'd say Eotas is better because his ultimate spell is superior to everything you can get from other gods. But Magran is a good choice too, and very convenient early game.

I'm not sure I would like per Rest to be removed. Partly because I'm conservative and I don't specially wish a game I like to be completely changed for PoE2. Partly because changing it would require lots of Time & Effort & Cost from the devs. Time & Effort & Cost that they could use for other purposes, like providing more content. I also like having per tier spell, so caster don't have a single pool of ressource. That helps casting diverse spells. And I like having to manage spells as a (semi-)finite ressources, as for consumables. Apart for a few abilities, per Rest problem is mostly about vancian casters being very strong when abusing rest. So I would compensate by letting martial class access game-changing unique features. And I would introduce cooldown for all martial class. And that would be quite ok, at least for me. But that's just me, and changing the whole per rest system could also be the way to go By the way, if Cooldown were introduced (which would be nice anyway), I would make Resolve slightly decrease cooldowns (currently this stat is a bit supbar).

Autorrect, that thing created to avoid typo, and that actually creates more typo. Looks like a trick designed by the typo demon. Aj ah ah

Patch 3.03 has just been released and I think PoE class system is in pretty good shape. But first, I have to define what I call a balanced class system for a party single player CRPG. For me, it is a system where each class is able to fill some roles or some combinations of roles without any class being better at it. (It's more a general principle than a precise definition.) I think PoE 1 mostly fullfills this objective. 3.03 is probably going to be the last balance patch for PoE 1 and I'm pretty satisfied about Obsidian's job, especially because it was their first try with this system. It might not be perfect but it's pretty ok now. Of course, it could be better. I won't dare complaining about PoE 1 anymore, but I'm eager to review the system once again now that PoE 2 has been confirmed. For the class System as a whole, I would only point two possible problems : ---- Vancian Casters (Wizard/Druid/Priest) are very strong It has been said numerous time on this forum : it's hard for other classes to compare with a Vancian spellcaster unlseashing his/her whole spellbook during a boss fight. It might not be as true for trash fights and early game, but I've often found that the raw power of a party is directly correlated with the number of vancian casters in it. My opinion about how PoE 2 should deal with it : I don't think it worths changing completely the class system (maybe because I'm a bit a CRPG "Tory" ), but I think PoE 2 should emphasize the true advantages non-vancian classes currently have over vancians : - Action economy. Casters have few passives. Non-Vancian should have great passive (like twin arrows, carnage, paladin zealous auras, etc... not to mention Immolation which is a "semi-passive") that enable them have multiple effects on the game at the same time or multiplicate their natural abilities. - Unlimited ressources. High-level Casters have a huge number ressources, but they are still limited. For example, abilities with cooldown instead of per encounter could be a good idea for martial class. (Chanters and Ciphers - and to a lesser extend, monks - already have unlimited ressources.) Giving Spell-like per rest or per encounter abilities to non-casters (ex: echoing shouts) will never truly give them an edge over vancians. They will always be worse at it than spellcasters. That does not mean these abilities are useless, it only means that the true power of non-casters does not come from there, and Obsidian should keep this in mind for their design. ---- Priest are very hard to replace In my opinion, priest is very hard to replace in a party : https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82251-the-priest-problem/ That does not mean that you abolutely need a priest, that priest are fun or that everyone should have a priest in his/her party. It just mean that when you don't have one, you'll usually face following problems : - Dealing with nastey effects, especially Crowd Control efficiently without "Prayer against X" spells. - Buffing your party, especially accuracy and defense. Crown and Devotion of the faithful are priceless. Once your priest have pumped up your party enough, you'll feel like playing in easy mode. I think the Devs realized it, as they stopped giving priest party buff after level 6. But even after WM, I think the probelm still exists. Solution is simple : giving the three other support class (Paladin, Druid and Chanter) party buff (or at least single target buff). I think it was partially done in WM, with chanter buff and druid new support support spell s(even if lvl 7 ones are a bit weak or cumbersome). So, for me, this point is more a reminder. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now I'm going to present my thoughts class by class, with a short desciption, and a few words about what I like, what I don't like and what I think could be a good evolution of the class for PoE 2. ---- Fighter Good old fighter has never been the most original class but this version is quite OK. They're frontliner, close to unkillable by physical attacks, and constant source of damages. Their damages output are currently a bit under the shadow of Paladin and Chanter's AoE, but they are still a source of reliable single target DPS. Fighter is the reliable dude, even if he will rarely be the shinest class. What I Like : No special crush. What I don't like : Buffs that gets overriden by priest party-wide versions. "Take the hit" basically makes you more vulnerable. That's not how tanking is supposed to work. What could be a good evolution : Fighters are champions. They should be stronger against stronger foes. Confident aim and Triggered Immunity already reflect it, but I think it should be emphasized even more, especially on the offensive side. Foe's defense bypass that would work even against unkillable stuff or maybe accuracy raising when attacking repeatly the same target could be good ideas. "Eventually, the hero will win the day." ---- Monk Monks are basically an alternate version of fighter, less reliable but with more potential. They fill the same role in a party, as frontliner with martial DPS. I like their original design, even if some can find it counter-intuitive. Under the right circonstance (which implies being in a difficult battel), they will have awesome single target DPS, recursive Crowd Control and crazy DR. Never underestimate a monk : I've found them to be among the most dangerous foes (Abbey of the fallen moon is a good exemple). What I like : The very idea of wounds. It's an original ressource and gameplay. What I don't like : Fists doing only Crush damages. It's not that bad as you can use weapons. But there should be a talent or ability (a modal maybe) enabling them to use other damage type (maybe with other bonus effects). What could be agood evolution : Different ways of using the wound mechanic apart spending them (like stacking up for Turning and Iron wheel) or different ways of generating them (some risk&reward stuff). ---- Barbarian Barbarian is about AoE. High level Chanters and Paladin can do this too, but they won't make such great use of special weapons, especially with Crowd Control effects, and interrupts. And they have Heart of Fury which is probably the deadliest AoE spike when used well. They also make surprisingly decent tanks. What I like : Positioning for heart of fury. Playing a Barbarian has never been so tactical. What I don't like : A bit too much spell-like abilities. Barbarian shouldn't try to be weak wizard debuffers. What could be a good evolution : More abilities about interrupts. It has good synergy with barbarian current abilities, and could be another card in their deck for single target fights. I can easily imagine barbarian being so fierce that their combat style disturb their foes. Barbarian current abilities are more about debuff than Hard CC, and I believe Interrupt to be in line with this route. ---- Paladin Since the beginning of RPG history, paladin has been looking for his own role outside of being a Fighter/Cleric compromise. It is also the case in PoE, and we all remember how weak they were in 1.0. However, they have been buffed since this time. Best single target healer, a couple of very good passive support, excellent tank, and a few offensive abilities, paladin is a bit a mix of everything. Very solid class overall now. Still, players on various forums seem to want a bit more martial power, and I wish they had a bit more unique traits. Their lore in PoE is excellent by the way. What I like : Immolation, Flame of Devotion, Sworn ennemy. That really sounds nothing but paladin. What I don't like : Reinforcing exhortation sounds a bit too much like Priest equivalent. Healing chain is just a 1/encounter lvl ~5 priest spell. If Paladin is supposed to follow the "half-priest" route, could he avoid getting supbar and less varied priest abilities ? What could be a good evolution : More martial powers. That's what players are praying for. PoE 1 paladin is okay, but now it's time to actually smite Evil/Benevolent/Stoic. Paladin should follow the FoD/Sworn ennemy route for PoE 2 (spike DPS martial abilities, and focus on a particular hated target.) A bit more unique order traits for orders would be awesome too. ---- Rogue Rogue is meant top single target DPS. And most of the time, they are. Except that twinned arrow ranger & pet are very close. Except that shifted druid temporarily more or less equals them. Basically, they are only a short head above their competitors, and contrary to them they have a single card in their deck. Out of Boeroer's Sorcerer's apprentice build taking advantages of Deathblows with scrolls (https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/86156-class-build-the-sorcerers-apprentice-twisted-sneaky-dps-scroll-user/), there is not much more you can do with a Rogue. Rogues are certainly not bad but they should be given a bit more love. What I like : Sneak attack (and deathblow) is an interesting mechanic. It require a bit of micromanagement, but it is playable. What I don't like : The tricky part of the old CRPG rogue is not so well implemented. Backstab and invisibility are circonstancial and that's ok, but they are also not that much rewarding. What could be a good evolution : More invibility. More deadly tricks. More "Risk&Reward" extra DPS. More dirty things to win against all odds. Rogue is not supposed to be a straightforward DPS. ---- Ranger Ranger and his/her pet ! Some don't like the pet, but it's what make Ranger an unique class. You have 2 characters for the price of 1, which make them basically the best "summoners". They also have lots of interesting ranged possibility, especially driving flight, and nice recursive crowd control effects with their stunning shots. Their single target DPS is close from rogue's due to Twin arrows, and they can do it from distance. A really reliable and complete martial class. What I like : A specialized ranged class that can be build efficiently for melee : you loose a few ranged tricks, but this build clearly has its use. That a very balanced design in my opinion. What I don't like : Some pets (bear and lion) have lower base attack speed, with no additional bonus (all pets get exactly 1 special, none seems much better to compensate for 33% less DPS). Check this thread. https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/86684-mechanics-the-big-attack-speed-conundrum/ I guess it is not that weel known by casual gamers but lion and bear are actually a bit gimped. What could be a good evolution : More love for arbalests and crossbows. Even more love for gunpowder ! Nothing special, I find this class really fitting in its current design. ---- Cipher "I'm a new player, I want an awesome class who can cast spells and fight. What do you advise me ? - Cipher" Cipher is PoE's soul, and they can drink yours by slapping your face. Everyone loves cipher. Cipher is a success. Reliable source of DPS, from range or melee, excellent crowd control (probably even better than wizard against single target) and a few endgame abilities that can turn the tides of a battle (defensive mindweb). Their ressources are limited and they are quite fragile, so they are not even overpowered (well... in 3.03 at least.) Good job, Obsidian. What I like : Fast mind control. Priceless. It really has an edge over wizard's AoE CC. Mindweb deserves a special mention as a strange but terribly efficient spell. What I don't like : Sometimes useless in Boss Battle. Cipher could get a talent to (slowly) regenerate their focus when they face hard-to-hit foes. Maybe a high level one. Not necessarily a primary source of focus, just a mitigation for when winter comes. What could be a good evolution : Possession. I want to be like Thaos. ---- Chanter The most ambitious class design in PoE. Two kind of spells, passive and active. And a standard position on the frontline rarely seen for casters. Chanters have spells with complicated name that you'll have trouble to remember. So you'll end up using mostly the same ones. Have you ever tried Dragon Trashed ? If yes, you should know that chanter can be build as the most efficient and convenient AoE damage dealer (I had 2 chanters in my last party. They were my top #1 and #2 killers, ) And that's the problem. They are supposed to be versatile, but their spellbook is so weirdly balanced that you'll end up using Dragon Trashed (and a few others) most of the time Don't get me wrong. Chanter is an awesome idea. It is the first class I played in the game because they looked so cool and fresh. Their implementation is however a bit lacking, for following reasons : - Circonstancial spells are ok, but they should have more raw power. What's the point of +10 Def against disengagement, when you'll get +10 Def at next level... The anti-beast song is however excellent. - Protection spells are not enough straight forward. Take the example of the Invocation against paralysis : what you'll need usually is to have it from the beginning of the fight. Getting it after 15s+ is worthless. So you'll end up using scrolls or priest. Protection chant against mind-control is okayish, but again, for important battle, you'll want immunity. - Invocation are slow. Less than before brisk limitation, but still. It's a shame you can't use half of your abilities at least 1 per battle... (also because Dragon Trashed will liquify most stuff before this point) - Their buff are not so good compared to priest one's. (Fire lash chant is quite good) Because of the mere awesomeness of Dragon Trashed (and a few other utilities), chanter is currently a balanced class compared to others. But in my opinion, their abilities need a bit of rework. What I like : Two kind of spells ! Casters with armors ! So many cool spells from body explosion to summons and paralysis cones. What I don't like : Weird protection spells, weak buff compared to spells. Weird ability balance overall. What could be a good evolution : Chanter lacks talent. Chanter rarely casts invocation. How to solve both ? Create a few (high level ?) talents enabling casting invocation a bit more often. Like a "wutherstrike" generating Phrases with a full attack (tribute pun intended) ---- Priest Extremely versatile caster. Strongest support, strongest buffers, best AoE healer and even strong AoE damage dealer. It's hard to argue against priest being good. Maybe even a bit too strong as buffers. I've complained a lot on priest threat upon balance in this thread, but that does not mean I don't like the class. Priest ar OK as they are. Maybe just a little too much OK. What I like : The airstrike you get at level 13 : Fire storm. It's unique because it's big. What I don't like : Radiance and Interdiction are just additional "spells". I would have enjoyed other mechanics (passive, modal, aura, etc...). What could be a good evolution : Having a priest of each of the 11 gods (or even "atheist/agnostic priests" to please everyone) would be nice. And a few more deity-specific spells too. Priest just needs a bit more fluff. ---- Wizard Wizard are the best AoE controller, crazy AoE damage dealers, "not fair" self buffer. You can even make them into tanks. You can do everything with a wizard, maybe not everything at once, but that's their only (little) weakness. Their memorization mechanic gives them a bit of CRPG traditionalist fluff. I like this. What I like : Summoning Citzal lance. Charge ! Wall of many colors is fun and potent too. What I don't like : No special complaint. What could be a good evolution : Everyone remembers the old "meta-magic" spells like time stop, contingency, spell sequencer. I hope that high level spells could be of this transcending nature, rather than more multi-fireball. Enabling creation of your own unique spells, even if it's complicated to implement and balance, could be one of the nicest possible feature for a wizard. ---- Druid Nature is beautiful. Nature is deadly. That's a good summary for druids in PoE. Druid used to be even better at damage dealing than wizard before WM. Oddly, their level 7 and 8 spells have evolved for more summons, supports and spellswordiness (avenging storm). And except avenging storm, these spells are weird, and not so efficient. On the opposite, spiritshift has become far stronger. So now, druids are casters who can bash trash with an incredible level of efficiency. Druids are often said to be the weakest of the 3 vancian casters. Less good than wizard at CC and AoE damages. Less good than priest at support and heal. But Druid are still an excellent compromis with a few tricks of their own, noticeably the deadly Relentless storm, the reason why circling a druid is pointless. And honnestly, I'm fond of their lore, esthetic and... bashing abilities. What I like : Venombloom. Storm spells. Bugs. Stoning. Spells for the 4 seasons. All these spells sounds so druidic, and they are efficient and original at the same time ! What I don't like : Level 7 spells : why so much hate ? Why Nature's bounty has to be so complicated tu use, why not just a direct buff ? And random summon are really annoying to use (this one is also applicable to lvl 2, 4, 6 blights). What could be a good evolution : More support spells, especially buff, to avoid priest being too necessary in a party. Spellswords spell like avenging stom with original mechanics are fun too. ---- (As a final note, I would personally appreciate more kits, more "multiclass" options, more specialization etc... but I think it's another debate and there have been other threads about this like this one : https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/84232-multiclassing-ideas/ So I won't discuss it here.)

which enemies have it? Sly Clyrdel, if I remember well, was famous in 3.03 for his one-shot strike, apparently due to Confident Aim stacking bug.

Or maybe wizard's "1000T anvil fall" )

1) When confident aim stacks on ennemies, it is no more "optional".

Well, 3.03 balance changes are not exactly minor ^^ I pushed about "what I thought to be the right thing to push", but I don't pretend it should have been an objective priority. You're right about potions, but as I don't use them a lot, I didn't see it as my "personal cause"...

Among other people, me. And I really think it's good to balance class too. In my own experience, I suffered more from balance issues than from bugs. That does not mean major bugs shouldn't be fixed but I personally think the game is in a pretty good shape now.

Jojobobo, I may not agree with all you say here, but you've been testing and pushing to make the final "major" bugs of this game corrected. I just wanted to say thank you for this. (I guarantee there's no irony involved here.)

It sounds good Aarik. Somewhere in Firkraag Dungeon, an invincible wolfwere still lives to proove that stacking bugs were not so well managed by PoE's glorious ancestor... So I won't point Obsidian about how they manage bugs ^^

I think it is an excellent idea... for PoE 2

It might not have been the cleanest and quickest bug fix of all time IF it is corrected. But it would be acceptable for me. Please Obsidian, fix this last one and move on.

Were there RP elements in NWN ? I don't even remember. Maybe they were bland gerenic stuff like : "I'm a nice guy, I don't want reward" or "I'll kill you if you give me this" into fight. I don't say there are not generic stuff in PoE, but I found them a bit more varied than good/neutral/evil. I found the level of RP quite acceptable even if was maybe not the main purpose of the game. But it's not the kind of game where you can defeat final boss by speaking...

Like a new life form emerges from a long forgotten full fridge.

Mmm, graze ?

No Sleep for the "Watcher"