Dark Moth

Mus, I noticed you have over 120 posts today! Don't you feel tired after all that? I guess in my case, it's pretty random. This entire weak I actually wasn't posting that much until I got into a heated argument in one of the threads today. " And that sent my post count skyrocketing.

Did you even get all the dialogue out of GOTO? If you did, then you would know that

Are you calling Baley a liar? I'm a 7-foot red-eyed moth creature who lives in the woods. Are you going to accuse me of lying, too?

Wow! All three are great, but I think the Bastila one's my favorite. I think you captured Visas very well, but as Kaftan said, the head just needs a little work. It's also great to see because Visas pics seem to be a rare occurance on these art threads. :">

There you go stating "facts". Do you even know the difference between a plot hole and a glitch or cut content or a broken quest? Plot hole is exactly what it says. A HOLE in the PLOT (ie. story). How is the droid planet a HOLE in the PLOT? It leaves you wondering why you couldn't complete it, but it doesn't leave you thinking "this makes the story make no sense!" Make up your mind what you're debating with me about, because the things you listed aren't all plot holes. Some are, but some are cut content, some are glitches, and some are just broken quests. The two things I mentioned are PLOT HOLES in K1 because they leave you thinking "wait a minute...that contradicts what I know so far". <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You mean, like you think that K2 for a fact had an influence system that worked well? And the droid factory only became a plot hole when they removed the quest from the game, for then you were left wondering where they HK-50's came from and who was building them in the first place. And without that quest, you still potentially had HK-50's running around hunting you. Without the cut content, it was never explained. And I don't know what you're talking about, since I didn't mention any glitches in that post. And you still can't seem to name any other plotholes except for those three, two of which are debateable (Calo Nord + the interrogation scene).

The fact is, the plotholes GOA listed (except for Bastila walking around Taris) are pure speculation that CAN be disputed, whereas most of the K2 plotholes are genuine plotholes, no contest (ex. the droid factory). As for Kreia and Mira, you can't say she didn't want Mira specifically to help the exile for a couple reasons: 1. If that were so, Kreia would have also done something to the other party members. 2. Mira didn't help the exile anyway, so you can't say that she foresaw Mira helping the exile. Unless she enlisted Hanharr to prevent that from happening, but even still, but then again, how could she have found the exile in the first place in time, anyway? And you can't say Mira would be most capable of helping the exile just becuase she was a bounty hunter. Atton was a Sith interrogator, he was skilled at killing Jedi. Visas was already a full-fledged Jedi, and you'd think she would be more capable than Mira.

Okay, the Bastila plotholes are significent, but aside from that, I can't think of any others, at least big ones. But even with that in mind, K2 didn't improve on that, either. Which goes along with what I said earlier about K2 not improving enough on the bad things in K1, and in some cases, getting worse. Until GOA lists the 'other' plotholes in K1, the plot holes in K2 still outnumbered the ones in K1 and are more noticeable (as a whole).

I stand corrected. The droid quest is a plothole, since the quest was cut out, but without it in the game you don't know where the factory is or who was building the droids or how they stole HK's design in the first place. That is when it became a plothole. @GOA: He was trying to get you to betray the Jedi. And he said afterward that it was a trick question because they already knew where Dantooine was and that it was already destroyed.

When it is still mentioned in the game and has an impact on it, it is, and I am referring to the droid planet/factory quest. Hey, I saw that same avatar on SOE! Copier!

Name them. And I think you'll find that they're very insignifant, much more than those in K2. As for plotholes, for a game, that amount of plotholes is a lot, and no, they are not that insignificant. If it's enough to be noticed by a lot of people, then it is significant.

But with HK's sidequest, he makes specific statements toward finding the factory. And you have the subl-level on the military base on the surface of Telos which could not be entered, which may have been part of the factory. And after the game, you still potentially have HK-50's running around hunting you, and you don't know where they came from or who was making them. Yuthura mentioning Sleheyron was only to explain her past, that's it. She didn't make a reference to it as if it would be a potential sideqest, like HK-47 did. You didn't have a sonic imprint sensor that was tracking you, as you found out from HK-47. That's another reference to the quest, there. As for GOTO and remote, see my edited post above.

2. I have no clue what he's even referring to, so I can't explain what happened. 4. I mentioned that one to him already 5. So was Sleyeheron. 6. that's cut content, it's not a plothole. I asked for plotholes, and that particular plot makes sense 9. she wanted to keep Mira from joining the Exile in the Treyas academy so that the Exile would have to face Kreia alone and "complete his training". <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As for Sleheyron, it was only mentioned so Yuthura could explain her past. It was really of no other importance to the game. As for Kreia, then why didn't she do the same for the other characters? You could say they were all unconscious, but we know Bao Dur wasn't, and someone had to fly the Ebon Hawk in the LS cutscene. And if you look at the cut content, most of the party members join the exile, not just Mira. Damn, I gotta stop editing my posts. As for the GOTO/remote cutscenes in the Ebon Hawk, you see parts where GOTO confronts remote or in one scene, seems to blast the remote in the hyperdrive room for no apparent reason and the remote falls to the floor. And then, the remote is just floating there next to the hyperdrive as if nothing happened.

Who knows? Kreia works in mysterious ways. What bounty hunters thing are you referring to? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But see, it's a plothole, then. And most things Kreia does can be explained in the game. The ones you mentioned: the two bounty hunters on the surface of Telos.

1. I already stated that one for you 2. How is the Ebon Hawk one a plothole? The Malachor one, again, I gave you that one 3. that's 1 4. What bounty hunters? 5. Cut content. 6. How is that a plothole? I understood the whole point of that. T3 locked the nav computer so that you (the Exile) wouldn't be able to know where Revan went. Nothing about that is a plothole. 7. I gave you that one too 8. It's not a glitch or plothole when IT CAN BE SOLVED. You even admitted it can be. 9. Because Kreia wants Mira killed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But why did Kreia want Mira killed? And as for the droid quest, it is a plothole since there were direct references to it in the game. And as I said, you and Battlewookie both listed plotholes, so why list them over again?

Straw man. I didn't implicitely say K1 had more glitches. I said that if you go to their tech forum you will find that they too had a "boatload" of glitches. My main point was K2's glitches aren't some unnatural phenomenon in the gaming industry that only happened in this game. I'm still waiting for YOU (not battlewookiee. it's a lot easier to provide an argument when you have people helping you with it) to list the "many" plotholes. So far you harp on the Hk factory. That, and the ones I even listed for you amounts to "many" plotholes? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> For a game (and especially when compared to K1), yes. Many is a subjective term, too. Battlewookie has already listed more, do I need to list them again? Let me see... 1. Telos fuel 2. Goto/Remote scenes (Ebon Hawk+Malachor) 3. Mira/Hanharr scene (Malachor) Also, if you let him live, you aren't sure what happens to him (if he dies on Malachor, or escapes in time) 4. Bounty Hunters 5. Droid factory 6. Nav computer (voice-locked) 7. Jedi redemption 8. Atmospheric sensors (debateable, since that's a plothole IF you don't have Bao-Dur with you when you find them) 9. Kreia/Hanharr scene (Nar Shadaa). The game never explains exactly why Kreia wants Hanharr to keep following Mira. As for the glitches, even if K1 had just as many, you'd think Obsidian would be able to improve on the glitches so there weren't as many. As for GO-TO, you're right there, but you must realize that it too, is only opinion. And so far, we've given plenty of examples, you've given evidence that is either: anecdotal, subjetive, easily countered. I'll say it again: you accuse me of being a shameless K1 defender, you seem to be a shameless K2 defender.

How many patches did it take? That's one thing you can fault Obsidian at, is patches. But K1 had a lot of issues as well before they released all the patches. And like I said, even if I concede the "glitches" part, he's (note how my post was directed at him since he was the one who originally made it "fact" that K2 was inferior) yet to explain how. Voice locked navi-computer? How is that a plothole? HK factory was CUT early on. That's not a bugged quest when they fully intended for it not to be included. In that case, like I said, Sleyeheron is also a bugged quest in K1 since there are hints at it when you talk to Yuthura AND if you choose to redeem her and talk to her back at the Jedi Enclave. Malachor V is a mess. I'm one of the first to say so. Thus I have no arguments against the unresolved things that happen on there. But one planet does not make an entire game inferior. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As I said, K2's glitches take up 97 pages AND it is a much younger game. And the HK factory is a plot hole because it was directly tied to the game and even HK hinted that you and he would go and investigate it. It is a plothole, not a bugged quest. As for Sleyheron, it's not a bugged quest since it was only reduced to explaining her past and laying the foundation for why she was with the Sith. If Obsidian didn't want the droid quest to be part of the game, they shouldn't have had so many references to it. Especially with all the HK-50's still running around. And I have no patches for K1, yet still found it almost glitch free. I guess that means that it had no glitches, does it? If you can say that K2 had less glitches because you didn't find many. EDIT: and I did get the full dialogue with GOTO. He's basically a droid that malfunctioned because he was given an impossible task and decided to follow a life of crime while still attempting to help the Republic.

See? You're brandishing your opinion as fact. Kreia was deep, yes, but then again, you forget that Visas barely had any history, GO-TO wasn't fully-fleshed, and many think characters like Sion and Nihilus weren't deep at all.

Well, that's my opinion, isn't it? If the amount of pages is your argument for that link, you seem to forget that the K2 glitches page is 97 pages and is also not even as old as K1. K1 is about 2 years old, K2 isn't even a year old. I rest my case. And as for plotholes, we've both already named a bunch (including Battlewookie), so I don't see where I need to explain further there. And especially when compared with K1, then yes, there were many 'plotholes'.

Alright, I recind the 'boat load phrase', but there were still a lot of glitches, more so than in K1. And I've already given you plenty of reasons why I felt K2 did poorly. If that's not enough for you, I could give you more. You accuse me of being a shameless K1 defender, you seem to be a shameless K2 defender. I guess it works both ways, doesn't it? "

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...ndpost&p=329328 (Must be atleast 5 pages if you mean a screen full for "page") <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not everyone experienced those. I can go to the K1 forums and check out their tech forum and link more than 5 pages of technical issues people had. When someone says a game has a boatload of glitches I'd expect they are glitches that the vast majority of gamers ran in to, not just some people. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I have been to the K1 forums, and I can tell you that the glitches discussed here definitely outnumber the K1 gameplay glitches. As I said above, you seem to think your single experience and gameplay speaks for everyone else out there. And I am referring to both major and minor gameplay bugs, too.

Bad ending? Agreed. Plotline had many plotholes? Disagreed. It had some. If you can point out what you believe to be plotholes, you'd better list off quite a few since you insist the word "many". So if you name one or two, this proves yet again you exaggerate. Incomplete sidequests? As far as I can remember, there were two. The fuel thing and the two bounty hunters on the surface of Telos. Oh and the Jedi redemption on Dantooine. None of which had a MAJOR effect on the overall game. boatload of glitches? Again, define "boatload". In my play through I ran in to ZERO glitches. Zero. That's not to say they don't exist, but again you use words like "many" and "boatload" so I'd like to hear some examples. And again I'd hope you give enough examples to justify an exaggeration term like boatload. In other words, your list better take up half the page otherwise that's another exaggeration on your part. Longer Loading screens? Debateable. I didn't notice a difference. But even if I gave you this one, who cares? You're comparing the game to JE for Game of the Year, don't forget, so even IF K2 had longer load screens than K1, that's irrelevant since JE had even longer by a MILE loading screens, especially in that arena portion when you had to sit through half a minute long load screens after every fight. Influence not working right? Wrong. It works as Obsidian intended. It's not Obsidian's fault that some people thought it would work a different way. But regardless, this one is subjective and thus can't be used as "proof" one way or another. K1 has deeper NPC party members? Really? How? Kreia was the deepest character, outside of the PC, in EITHER game. Mandalore, HK and T3 were the same character, thus their backstories are the same in both. Atton was MUCH more fleshed out that Carth. Visas was more interesting than Juhani. Hanharr was much more fleshed out that Zaalbar. The only interesting party members in K1 were Jolee and Bastila. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So far, all examples you're giving are subjective, just like some of mine. Many people think the influence system needed work, and as I said, some people would still argue that the K1 members were deeper. You're now brandishing your opinion as fact. And if you don't believe the amount of glitches in the game, just look at these forums and you'll find them (or Battlwookie's list). Remember the 'amusing glitches' thread? Yeah. And I did happen to look at the loading screens, and K2's were as a whole undoubtedly longer. Just look at the patch that came out for it, and that didn't even correct all the glitches. And you forgot about the Droid sidequest for HK-47, and the shallow romance options which many other peole didn't like, either. You can't deny that there were plotholes, esp. around the ending. And not to mention that many people feel there was a decrease in overall difficulty (even Kreia wasn't that tough, and Nihilus was just a pushover). I stand by what I said. And just because you didn't encounter all those glitches doesn't mean others didn't, which you seem to think. I didn't encounter a lot of glitches either, but after looking at these forums I can tell you that many people encountered several glitches in their gameplay.

What upset me the most in K2 was that all 3 masters seemed to express some form of regret of your exile. Kavar and Zez-Kai ell all said how they were glad to have you back, and even Vrook admitted on Dantooine that he may have misjudged you. But when you go to talk to them, they all suddenly turn tails and say that you're still an exile, and you must also leave without the force. From what I had gathered when talking to them, I at least would have thought they would have revoked your PC's banishment, but they didn't. In fact, they seemed to agree with it more than ever, even Zez-kai ell. "Our judgement still remains: exile. But you must leave without your connection to the force." - Master Vrook. At that point, I really felt they had betrayed your character. That's what I hated. I have no idea why Obsidian did that, but I thought it was a poor move on their part.

Yeah, but when you stack all the nice new stuff against the stuff that got worse in the sequal, then I don't think it can stand on it's own. We shouldn't have to sacrifice quality for new stuff. In K2, you had a plotline with many holes, a bad ending, incomplete sidequests, a boat load of glitches, longer loading screens, and even an influence system that wasn't well done according to some people. And some would argue that the characters in K1 were deeper than K2 characters. And if you look at the sheer amount of stuff that was the same: graphics, combat, some animations, ranged combat that still sucked, repeated environments (korriban and dantooine), others, then a lot of it did feel like K1. Even the basic line of the plot felt similar: start off on a planet, you're forced to go to another planet after that, then you're given your main quest to find 4 things (Star Maps/Jedi Masters), then face the bad guys in a final showdown. That is why I say they didn't improve enough on the game in the first place. But that doesn't mean I think a sequal should never win an award. I try to look at the games objectively, and when I compared K2 to JE, I thought JE was more deserving in the fact that it was a new idea, a complete game, and I thought a good RPG. Now, if JE wasn't so good and every other RPG was crap, then yes I would have said K2 should have won, simply for lack of competition. But then, does that still mean they truly earn it?

I sometimes wonder if Zaalbar had to stay behind for some cryptic reason, also. Perhaps like Mandalore, Zaalbar stayed behind so he could help rebuild his planet and strengthen his people. Maybe in K3 (if it is ever made) the wookies are going to help out in the fight against the "True Sith" like the Mandalorians. That'd be sweet. It'd almost be like a "Return of the King" type scenario.

The only problem with saying the vision or Revan and the DS exile represents the exile's rejection of the DS is that the exile in the game can be DS. If the exile supposedly rejected the DS, then why would he be DS in the game? My interpretation of the visions were that they represented past, present, and future, and all difficult choices you had/would have to make. The visions of the Mandalorian wars and past scenes represent the dark moments of your past. The scene with Kreia, I think, represents the present. Kreia even says that "you've revisited the dark moments of your path and now you must face the present." Then of course you have to decide there if you side with Kreia or not. Then, you face Revan, which is I think a vision of the future, signifying that you'll eventually meet up with Revan and maybe even have to fight him as well. As for the DS exile beside him, that may either symbolize that you'll eventually fall and side with him, or that you used to side with Revan in your 'dark' past but must soon face him. At least, that's my take on it.