Dark Moth

@GOA: I'm merely trying to say that I felt K2 felt too much like K1 to really stand on it's own. Diablo II, while similar, added a ton of things to the game. Have you played both of them? Because the D2 added a ton of things to the original and many things were radically different. Besides, JE wasn't a sequal, yet it still was good. Then there's the amount of things worse in K2: glitches/bugs, loading screens, lack of a good ending, etc. I don't think they improved enough on the game for it to really stand on its own. But that's my opinion, now isn't it? EDIT: It's okay, Vrook. I'm calm, now. The flaming has been removed. But I apologize if I seemed like I was "smiting" you. :"> The comments in my post are now removed, since I think I over-reacted a little. I was just a little ticked at the comment you made. So sorry if I sounded too harsh, there.

You just described pretty much every sequel out there (FO2, BG2, IWD2, etc). I guess by your definition NO sequel will ever be as good as the original since it shares some things in common with it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, that's not my point. Because it was a sequal to a great game it was so good. K1 was basically a new thing, K2 wasn't. To disprove your point: I thought Diablo II was better than Diablo. Ha.

I thought the story in both Diablo's was fine. And storyline is only as important as the devs make it. (or how you make it)

I only think KOTOR 2 won RPG of the year for two reasons: 1. Some would argue that it didn't have much competition anyway (although I still wonder how it beat JE). 2. It was the sequal to K1. The majority of the things found in K2 were taken straight from K1, a game that was already lauded as one of the best X-Box titles/RPG's available. Not to mention that the game was half-baked. That's gotta make you wonder about the sanity of the voters or the quality of the other RPG's. So no, I really don't think they truly earned it. Sorry, Obsidian. Yay! I'm the odd one out!

I don't see how you can say Diablo wasn't an RPG. You played a character, you leveled up, gained experience, got new abilities and skills, enhanced your character's stats, and used a whole sh1tload of weapons, armor, and items. It was stat and level based, just as all RPG's are. And the difference between Diablo and the rest of those pseudo-hack n slash games is that Diablo (for many people, at least) was actually good. One of the things I liked most about Diablo II was that the different classes were so radically different, esp. in skills/spells.

Both the Jedi and the Sith, as you said, are flawed, IMO. Each one has weaknesses and strengths. I also know that not all Jedi are 'good' and not all Sith are 'evil'. A good example: Yuthura Ban. She was a Sith, but when you got to know her you found out she really wasn't evil. Although I disagree with you on a few points, such as your statements about Revan. I don't believe he had to 'fall to the darkside' to achieve his goals, but we've already argued that. I am merely saying that as a whole, I think the beliefs of the Jedi are for the most part good, and the Sith beliefs for the most part are evil. But as you also said, people can interpret good and evil in different ways, and sometimes it's not black and white. The main problem I have with K2 was that it was too gray. It made almost no distinctions between good and evil. It made is seem as if there was no difference between the two. K1 was a tad black and white, I admit, but not nearly as much as some claim, IMO.

Mmm... nice choice, alanschu. This one's Elisha Cuthbert (Girl Next Door). I'd hit it. :D

Um, I think you misunderstood... Although, that's an interesting pic idea. :D

Diablo 1 and 2 were the masters of glorious click-and-kill gamplay. The story wasn't half-bad, either. While I'm always up for Diablo III, I'll have to agree with a few other members and say that what I want most is a Starcraft 2. If you talk about cliffhangar endings in games, the one in Starcraft: Brood War was a big one. At the rate Starcraft: Ghost is being developed, we have a good wait before we see Starcraft: 2.

Sweet T3 pic! I wonder what he's saying in that one? By the way, awesome Malak pic, Julianw! He's looking his most badass yet. :D

Supposedly that's a bug that a few people have gotten and the devs have supposedly corrected in their patch. But for me, in K2 swoop racing was hardest on Telos. Maybe I just got luck on the other planets. But the hardest swoop race I ever completed was the Tatooine course in K1. I actually had to seek help on the internet to win that one.

Your example is far from compelling. You automatically assume in your statement that a Jedi keeps secrets for no reason and that a Sith never keeps secrets. Why would the Jedi's father not tell him simply because he was a Jedi? Why would he tell him simply because he's a Sith? You say that 'for some cryptic Jedi reason' but fail to even explain beyond that. It doesn't make sense. If anything, a good person would tell his son that he's his father so his son can escape that pain. Those who say there's no line between good and evil are ususally those who have no understanding of the two. Kreia was very evil and held many Sith beliefs , yet somehow believed she was better than the Sith. "All that talk about hatred, manipulation, and standing on your two feet, sorry, you don't get any more Sith than that." - Atton (see, Jediphile? A quote!) Calax says that sometimes evil people fight more honorably than good people, but fails to even explain why or give an example, which leads me to the conclusion that he's making stuff up. If I'm wrong, Calax, please correct me. But so far all evidence I've seen is not convincing.

Removed because it was inappropriate. - Shadowstrider Oh yeah - great Basti drawing, Harry Sorne. (w00t) Hope her body ends up being close to the way it was in the game, too. "

Same here. No Hoff items whatsoever. (proud) The only reason I know about him is because I happened to watch a couple episodes of Baywatch in my life. :">

Do you like RTS's (real-time strategy)? If you do, here are a couple good ones (both multiplayer): The 'Age' titles - Age of Empires 2, Age of Mythology (+Titans exp. pack),... Warcraft III (+Frozen Throne exp. pack)

But that's what I mean. You're mistaking helping someone with 'doing everything for them'. Kreia would have you ignore the woman and the child, leaving them both to die. You help them so they don't die, and so they can learn from that experiecnce. And you also seem to forget that many times, it isn't even someone's fault for being in a bad spot, just like the refugees on Nar Shadaa. That's the same thing as how sometimes there are diseases the body can't cure. Sometimes a person can't do something alone, so you would naturally help them so they aren't left to suffer or die. Look at the example of the Lootra sidequest: Lootra's wife couldn't get out of the refugee sector. She wasn't a fighter. She couldn't get through to the exchange. She needed you to help her. Lootra couldn't get back to his wife for the very same reasons. You had to help them. By helping them, you only accomplished good. It's not like they would have just kept getting separated after that, either. If you complete the quest, Kreia yells at you for helping them. Kreia would have just left them to fend for themselves and never see each other again, and wouldn't have even cared. That is the danger of her teachings. Her teachings are, IMO, just as flawed, if not more flawed, then either the Jedi or the Sith's. EDIT: But of course, you don't do everything for a person over and over again, and therefore make them weak. That is where you have to use judgement. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't help out someone in the first place.

I too, am basing my opinions on the canon. You're GOTO quote only proves one thing: that Revan left some military installations intact. I don't see how you can say that Revan knew about the True Sith during the Mandalorian wars. It defies logic. As for what GOTO said, it's true that Revan didn't destroy the Republic in the sense that he left some worlds intact, but as I said, that's only so he could use those in the fight against the True Sith or to protect his own empire. However, Revan was going to replace the democratic power structure within the Republic with his own Sith Empire, essentially destroying it. As I said, Darth Sidious didn't destroy any worlds to take over the Republic, but he in a sense destroyed it. The same goes for Revan. Besides, GOTO is not Revan. GOTO would not know Revan's motives. The only evidence you've given is that Revan left some military installations and infastructures intact, and that's about it. But as I've said, he only wanted to use those military installaions for himself so he could fight the True Sith. But he would have destroyed the Republic authority behind those worlds and replace it with his own. And Revan did not "have" to defy them. He was impatient and went to war and ended up sparking a chain of events that lead only to millions of more deaths. The Jedi were right, because they believed that the real threat (the True Sith) hadn't revealed themselves. Revan went to war, and the exile followed. If Revan hadn't went to war, the exile wouldn't have fought, you'd have no "Malachor V", no wound in the force, no Nihilus, no "Sith Lords" like Kreia and Sion. And look at my Revan link also. The stuff in there is a bunch of official stuff. @darknesslord: Oh, I get it. So if you saw a woman getting robbed or kidnapped by thugs, you wouldn't lift a finger to protect her? If you saw a child lost in the woods and starving to death, you wouldn't help him? That's what I'm talking about here. And you're example is flawed for one reason: not all diseases can be cured by the human body. If that were so, then we'd have no need for medicine. Ever hear of malaria? Yellow fever? Smallpox? If you don't help your body, you're only dooming yourself. As for the child, sure you wouldn't build it for him, but couldn't you help him so he can learn? After that, will he not be able to build it himself? Not everyone can figure things out for themselves the first time.

The Sith would say the same thing. Kreia was a liar who used just one circumstance to prove her point, as if that was the same way in every occasion. In some cases, sure it does, but definitely not in most. If anything, helping out the weak helps them to become strong again. If you never help the weak, then you are only condeming them to suffer. You're only proving that you have no desire to help them.

*signs both petitions* :D

Mmm...Soul Calibur 2. Ivy has got to be the hottest one devised.

So you're just going to let the weak die off by themselves and leave them nothing, right? Oh, that's not evil, is it? I think someone's been listening to Kreia too much. Kreia was a fool in the sense that she didn't realize that sometimes people can't help themselves. And Kreia, of course, was a bitter, hate-filled old woman who disliked anything she deemed as "too good". She disdained killing people just for its own sake, but that was only because it didn't 'benefit' a person. If you killed a person for your own benefit, then yes, she was okay with it. On Nar Shadaa, those refugees were already getting by themselves, but they had nowhere to go. Many of these poor people that Kreia refuses to help have nothing to hope for; nowhere they can turn. Helping out the weak does not make you weak, it only makes you a good person and in the end a strong person. But I think that's where our philosphies differ. No. The Jedi and Sith are definitely not the same. They have radically different philosphies and beliefs. Sure, the Sith and Dark Jedi ended up being an offshoot of the Jedi, but they were a people who rejected the teachings of the Jedi and embraced the teachings of the Sith. They are not the same thing. The Jedi as a whole are good, the Sith as a whole are evil. And when I say as a whole, I am referring to their entire race and beliefs. I am well aware that not all Jedi are good and not all Sith are evil, but as a whole, they are both opposites. End of story. @Jediphile: I am referring to the Mandalorian wars, not the Jedi civil war. Revan discovered the True Sith after the Mandalorian wars, but before the Jedi civil war. You seem to think I was referring to the Jedi civil war. And if the Jedi were given a chance to act in the Mandalorian wars, there would be no Jedi civil war and the Republic would have been more intact and less people would have lost their lives. You can't even really say that Revan always intended to save the Republic during the Jedi Civil War. Revan was going to wipe out the power structure behind the Republic and replace it with his own Sith empire. That is destroying the Republic, no matter how you look at it. And of course, Revan would leave certain things intact because an empire with nothing to rule over or produce soldiers would be worthless to him/her. Darth Sidious did the same thing: he destroyed the Republic, but didn't destroy any of its worlds. He replaced it with the Galactic Empire. That is the same as destroying it.

We love links!!! We love them!!! Link for Kreia Link for Revan Hope this might at least answer a few questions about Kreia. The only reason I included the Revan link was because it referred to Kreia and Kae as separate people (the part where it talks about his masters). I don't know, but I find that highly suggestive that she wasn't Kae. Interpret it any way you want to. Okay, I'm done for now. Goodnight.

Wow...I've missed a lot of art. Since there's so many, I'm just going to say great art everyone!!!! Kudos to all the artists. Keep it up, guys. And maybe one of these days I might post another picture myself. Like my new avatar, guys? I always loved this character, even if he was underfeatured (kinda like Nihilus). Um, not that anyone cares. But I think it's way cooler than say, having a spork as your avatar. :ph34r:

They didn't. Kreia came in and killed them before they had a chance to finish the process, therefore the exile kept his/her connection to the force. You can't say Revan wasn't as dangerous as the Mandalorians just because he left some military structures intact. He was far more dangerous not only because of his ability at strategy but because of the weapons he possessed (Star Forge, Malchor V, etc.) Also, here's another link with info about Revan for those confused about his beginnings. Revan discovered the Sith Empire while he was wondering the galaxy after the wars. He first heard about them at Malachor (with their teachings and holocrons), and then eventually discovered them. That was when he decided to wage war on the Republic to supposedly strengthen it. But by that time, he was hopelessly lost to the Jedi, so they couldn't trust him anyway, especially if he went DS. If he refused to cooperate with them, then all would have been lost to them, so yes, I think they were also justified in not telling him. It was not a time where they could afford to take chances. It was a necessary evil. If you look at the link, it says the council wanted to wait because they sensed the true threat hadn't revealed itself, and they were right. The true threat was the Sith, and they hadn't revealed themselves. The Jedi were going to act. They wouldn't sit idly by and let the entire Republic be destroyed, even they aren't that stupid. Think about it. They only wanted to wait. As for the exile, you got me there, I admit. But even if they wanted to cut him off because they were afraid he could kill the force, you can't say they were justified in their actions, which I'm sure most of you agree with. But unfortunately, if it takes sacrficing one person to save thousands of others, then sometimes you have to do that. That was the case with both Revan and the exile. I just think the council was more justified with their actions toward Revan. Jediphile, I still don't see how you can even say the Jedi are as bad as the Sith. And last time I checked, the Jedi weren't the ones responsible for the killings, slayings, and destruction you see in the games and the movies. The Jedi are flawed, definitely, but as a whole, I still think they are better than the Sith. At least that's what my good half says. One last thing: In my link, it refers to Kreia and Kae as two separate people. While this might be proof, I think this is fairly compelling evidence that suggests Kreia wasn't Kae.

You really do like to paint everything in K1 in a great light, and everything in K2 in a poor light, don't you? You say what the masters did in K1 was for the benefit of the entire galaxy, yet the masters in K2 are idiots because of what they did. Hmm, they did what they did in K2 for the very same reason, because they felt the Exile was a danger to the ENTIRE GALAXY. They thought (doesn't mean they were right, but we're talking about their reasons here) that the Exile would be the death of the Force and the death therefore of the galaxy, so they stripped him of the Force. I just find it humorous to read all your posts when K1 and K2 are compared. You make anything and everything in K1 seem to make 100% perfect sense, but then make anything and everything in K2 seem illogical or unrealistic or downright stupid. This thread is the perfect example. Apparently it was okay for the Jedi Masters in K1 to take it upon themselves to wipe someone's mind for the better of the general population, but yet it was "idiotic" of the Masters in K2 to do the something similar for the greater good. Funny how things work when seen through rose colored glasses. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, for one thing, I do often look at K1 in a positive light because I think it was a lot better done. Not everything in k1 makes 100% perfect sense, but they do a lot more than they do in K2. As for Revan, the Jedi were justified because he was killing off their order and hurting the Republic. They were merely defending themselves. Did you honestly expect them to sit down and have a chat with Revan over fried gizka asking him to kindly stop attacking them? In K2, the exile (LS) was trying to help the republic. He didn't know he was a danger, but he still was trying to save the Jedi order. But the Jedi Masters, in their fear and ignorance, decided to condemn him instead of help him. They were not justified. There was another way to defeat the Sith other than cutting off the exile from the force, and you proved that by beating them all yourself. In K1, there really was no other way. If you can come up with an alternate thing the Jedi could have done in K1, please explain away. And if Revan truly wanted to help the Republic, he would have done a "Gandalf" and counseled all the nations to prepare for war, not attack them outright. In attacking them, he weakened the Republic and the Jedi and left it vulnerable. And Revan did not know about the True Sith when he went to fight the Mandalorians, so you can't say he even knew about them at the time of his departure to fight. EDIT: Hooray, 400 posts. I need to take a break.