Jediphile

But thats not that different from what Kinobi says about Vader. If she went to war as Kae but returned as Kreia, that would make sense from a certain point of view. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If we truly must revive this old, undead topic, then can we at least do it here?

Very happy But why bookmark it?... it is always on top in the General Section <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Because that's not where I look if I need it... Yes, I'm lazy. :">

Didn't I pointed you to this thread already before (for the Malak robe stat stuff)? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, but I forgot the link :"> Bookmarked it now. Happy?

Imposing your own will above that of everyone else is what being Sith is all about, and the force is just a tool to reach your ambitions, no matter what they are. Kreia may want the force to die. A consequence of that is that the Sith will be destroyed. But Sith killing Sith is not unheard of. Indeed, Palpatine was perfectly willing to sacrifice sith to achieve his goals, and Kreia is still using the force to achieve her goals, even if that goal is to destroy the force itself. That she will kill the other sith as a side-effect is immaterial to her. If it needs to be done, then so be it. Can't be much more sith than that. Kreia admits herself that she's sith. But you're right that there's a reason she's grey on the character screen. The reason for that is that she is hiding her true intentions from everyone, especially from the Exile, which is the player. If she is grey, then why is she Darth Traya? I dare say grumpy old Jolee would have a thing or two about Kreia being deemed grey as he is... Careful, or Jolee will talk our ears on the matter... Oh, I definitely agree that she's a wonderful character. Vader was a wonderful character in the original trilogy. Garak is a wonderful character on Star Trek - Deep Space Nine. Gaius Baltar is a wonderful character in the new Galactica show. This does not mean that I admire them as role-models, though. Lots of people hate Kreia, only I'm not one of them. But I do think what you mention here is the reason for both (both why I like Kreia and why many others hate her). Gray or dark, Kreia will make you think. She's a lot like Socrates, who constantly challenged people on their perceptions and forced them to reconsider their opinions. In the same way, Kreia will not let you move on unless she thinks you've truly comtemplated an issue, and she will persist in discussing it, until she's satisfied you've considered all sides to it. She's different from Jolee, however, in that she doesn't want you to think for yourself quite as much as she wants to convince you to agree with her take on things. People felt Socrates was so annoying that they eventually had condemned to death for it. Unsurprisingly many feel the same way about Kreia.

Yes, of course. Loving Feargus is required by law. You do love Feargus, don't you, citizen? :darque:

I know! It's just the perfect robe. I call it the "Pimp my Jedi" robe. Is that wrong? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> VERY wrong!! What does the Nomi Robe do anyway? As I recall, you can't get it unless you mod the game, right?

Sorry - my bad :"> :D

Which it is. As shown in both the DS and LS (Force Field breaking beast get's out of control for example) Onderon battle... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You know, I think it would have been great if instead of doing Dxun and then Onderon, they had done both at simultaneously in the plot and then cut quickly between them. That would have been very cinematic and interesting. So Bao-Dur (or whoever) opens the door to the tomb, and three Sith lords are waiting... Cut to Onderon! Still, then we wouldn't have lovely topics like this one :D Not sure if it would be doable technically, though..

Ahh... movies I don't like that everyone else seems to... Dazed and Confused, The Big Lebowski, 2001: A Spacy Odyssey, Blade Runner, From Dusk Till Dawn. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You don't like The Big Lebowski, 2001, Blade Runner, and From Dusk Till Dawn Sacrilige!! Kill the infidel!! How can you not like The Big Lebowski: I love the scene on the toilet - "Where is it?" - "It's down there somewhere, let me take another look..." And how can anyone not Blade Runner

Hmmm... Maybe the solution is to not make the forced early game so bloody long. I do agree that it can be quite a pain to have to walk through it for the n'th time, especially on Peragus, where there really aren't any LS/DS choices that affect the immeidate plot in any way, unlike Taris, where you can collect bounties, work for the black vulkars, etc.

The journalist was the model played bu Lucy Lawless. I only recall one additional model in the pilot (the one found on the abandoned space station) and he was in this episode as well. It's possible I've missed someone though, it's been a while. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The other one is the guy Adama is trapped with at one point when they're getting equipment from the space station. He eventually succumbs to the heat of the place for some reason after Adama has talked with him and discovered him to be a cylon. You're right about the journalist, though - mea culpa. That means I can only recall six of the twelve models so far...

First of all, I agree with you that the game forces you to choose against Kreia. It was logical to me, but I guess you should have the option to agree with her, even after all she has put you through. However, you say that Kreia is gray. I don't agree with that. Kreia is definitely darksided in my book. Why you may ask, especially when she clearly is opposed to the goals of conquest and power that Nihilus and Sion are. Well, Kreia is still trying to bring about certain conditions - namely the death of the force - regardless of whether people want it or not. So she is trying to excert her desires of what the universe should look like over those of everyone else's. That's not a very kind thing to do. In fact, it's worse than the oppression of the Sith, since the consequences can be devastating. The force is created by life. What is life without the force? No one knows, and it might be best not to find out... And yet Kreia wants the force to die anyway. Just because her goals are not the same as those of other Sith, that doesn't mean she's not evil. She puts her goals above those of everyone else and forces the matter. She's definitely evil. It just doesn't look that way because jedi or sith - the both want the force to live. The force is their tool, after all. The jedi serve the will of the force, and the sith use as a tool that gives them power. But they both agree that it should continue to exist. What would the jedi be without the force? What would the sith be without the force? Kreia wants the force to die, but she doesn't care whether others agree with her or what the consequences will be. That's evil. She's a right Lady Macbeth, the old hag... And yes, Kreia is a great character. I love Sara Kestelman's voice-acting. I mean, just see my sig...

With so many possible outcomes, Obsidian just did the smart thing - they avoided the issue(s) where they could. They couldn't with Bastila, and so she is declared alive, but they try hard not to say one way or the other for the rest of the characters, so that the outcome for the individual player is not "proven wrong" for whatever reason... which is something that tends to rub people the wrong way. Smart of them. Don't make people angry. If there is doubt, don't use the character at all. I think that's a reason why we won't see Atris at all in K3, sadly.

I think that's more an argument for writing a more interesting early game than for having multiple starting points. I find that to be very confusing. I mean, what would the point be? KotOR games have very fixed and linear plots, but it's on that basis the story can become deep and interesting. To build to the climaxes, the story frequently needs to set up a number of things in the early game, which I think would clash with the idea of multiple starting points. That seems to make it a choice between multiple starting points and strong story, and I'll go for the latter every time.

True. I really like Zez-Kai Ell. More so than Kavar. It's too bad they just made him "forget" his take on the matter and just had him join up to be murdered on Dantooine... I like Vash, too, though. She also seemed to be more insightful and prepared to not just blame everybody else: "We take responsibility, Atris, not cast blame." I would have paid real money to see some of the discussions Vash and Zez-Kai Ell had with Vrook... "

As I have said before - never take Kreia at her word. Ever! If she tells you water is wet, make sure to check, before you believe her! When it comes to Revan, Kreia says all sorts of things about how great and flawless Revan was. But consider the source. Revan was Kreia's greatest student, so she's scarcely unbiased on the matter. Indeed, with the council declaring all her students failures and her teachings therefore flawed, she has good reasons for seeing Revan in the most positive light, so she can "declare victory" in spite of anything the masters say. And Revan did learn from Kae: Disciple: "Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing. Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars." As for Kreia's connection to Kae... Well, be careful before you open that can of worms... again - it's an old and touchy subject on these boards that has been discussed massively before and since. But I'm game for it again if others are

Zez-Kai Ell is a jedi master of the order, and they don't train adults. Besides, what life would he offer her with the Exchange having a bounty out on any jedi and the Sith hunting them at the same time? Disciple was a padawan, but he left the order, when the Exile went off for the Mandalorian Wars, which meant that he had lost his mentor. He might have found another master, but it seems that he didn't want to for some reason. Perhaps the Exile's ability at creating powerful force bonds was at work even this early... Whatever the reason, the Disciple left and joined the republic fleet instead. Maybe he wanted to fight the Mandalorians like his master, and not even being a padawan, this was the only way.

I actually haven't played K2 with Revan set to LSF, but I think it's fair to assume that Bastila appears in the game no matter what you set Revan to - she will either be good Bastila who appears as a hologram (LSM Revan) through T3 or who talks to Carth after the Exile meets him (LS Revan, either gender), or she will be evil Bastila, who may appear as T3's hologram, but definitely will appear as a hologram in the ruins of the Sith academy on Korriban. So Bastila is declared to have survived K1 in any event. Therefore none of Revan's companions are killed off if Revan is LS. Actually, Carth could just be stuck on Rakata Prime, depending on DS Revan's gender. But it's probably best to presume him dead, if Revan is DS. And Hanharr can be alive if Exile is LS - Mira has to defeat him, but she also has the option of leaving him alive. We might think that was then killed when the Mass Shadow Generator was activated, but then he might also have found a way off Malachor V, while the Exile was dealing with Kreia. After all, Hanharr must have a ship somewhere to have gotten to Malachor V in the first place - I doubt he walked... I actually put Hanharr in my own K3 plot suggestion, even for the "Exile is LS"-version of events... No, in the DS ending, Exile has the choice of staying to learn at the Trayus Academy or else to take one of the shuttles orbiting the planet and escape. We don't know which he chooses.

You just did - The Architect notes people's choices down and then updates the list.

But you forgot that The truth is out there... - don't run away from it, even if I'm the messenger... :cool:

If Revan is LS, Kreia tells the Exile that Revan set Ajunta Pall's spirit free to rejoin the light side. She does sound consistently dismissing about the matter, though. Clearly she did not agree with that particular decision of her former padawan

Well, try something outrageous and just trust me then... " :D

Never thought about that, but yeah, I guess you're right... I suppose the other possibility is that several of the Exile's companions have become force sensitive simply because the Exile needed them to be, so he could siphon power off them and gain access to the force. Given that Bao-Dur was there with the Exile when the Mass Shadow Generator was activated (and which so made him cut himself off from the force), it's possible that they share a fairly strong connection through that mutual experience, which was so climactic to the Exile. That might also explain why the Exile can "hear" Bao-Dur's thoughts, while Kreia cannot.

Yes. It would be a good bit if it wasn't so sad and unnecessary. Good for the DS-lovers, though - you can really mean and just casually walk off as she lies there calling out for you. Nasty... Anyway, you mentioned Bao-Dur, and yes, you can make him into a jedi. In fact, only the droids (HK-47, T3, GOTO), Hanharr, and Mandalore cannot be "jedified", whereas Atton, Handmaiden, Disciple, Mira, and Bao-Dur can all be turned into jedi.

hey, hey watch what you say, you are talking about the man here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, they're the ones who wrote that into FO2. Go find the magic 8-ball and shake it about (with Luck 9+) for a while, if you don't believe me.