Jediphile

had he/she not, the galaxy would have fallen, there was no real choice, Revan just did what needed to be done to save it, or at least to hope. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, Revan fell. Pure and simple. Even if we accept that he did what he did to prevent the greater evil that the true Sith presented (and that's a big if, since we still don't know how much he knew of them at the time), Revan still fell to the dark side, corrupted or killed the jedi under him, then forgot all about the true Sith and instead sought the StarForge so he could invade the republic. With saviors like that, who needs the true Sith, anyway? " That his initial intentions were good does not excuse it - at best it is merely an extenuating circumstance.

exactly, they realize that good and evil depend strongly on our point of view, <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't agree with that, because that basically supports a relative view on morality. That would be the same as saying that whether murder or other violent crimes are good or bad depend on how the society they are committed in thinks of it. In Kreia's case I would say you should consider the source... Really, as I've said before, Kreia is the sort of person, where I say that if she told me water was wet, I'd check to see for myself before I believed her... Or to quote Faramir from Lord of the Rings, "I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee" (this is the *real* Faramir from the books, not the pale shadow of himself that they turned him into the movies). The arrogance of thinking that you can confront and overcome any temptation is precisely the fatal mistake that both Ulic and Revan made, and they paid a high price for their arrogance. It eventually cost Ulic everything, and Revan still has to atone for his sins, as Darth Blivion pointed out.

No, gray jedi don't "control" the dark side. If they try, they are just as likely to fall to the dark side as anyone else. The non-jedi (I assume you mean force adepts) are not as likely to fall, because their connection to the force is not as strong as it is for jedi or sith. I don't recall ever hearing of a force adept that fell to the dark side in the manner that Ulic or Revan did. In fact, Mara Jade was a force adept serving as the "Emperor's Hand" for years, and yet she was never corrupted by the dark side. You almost make it sound as if the old jedi order was corrupting and subverting the republic, but as Bastila points out, the order was aware of the greater danger and would have aided the republic in time. They didn't get involved with the Mandalorian Wars, because they thought the risk of jedi fighting early in that war would have far worse consequences. What Revan and Malak then did can be seen to support their fears more than anything, since Revan and Malak and their followers all became evil and turned into a threat to the republic that was even more dangerous to the republic. The jedi order was being cautious. They were still wrong and limited themselves out of concern, but you cannot question their intent. It's far more ethically questionable how they later used Revan as a tool to serve their own interests. You seem to forget that the republic remained unaware of the threat the true Sith poses. In fact, the republic is *still* blissfully unaware because Revan decided to leave without telling them, and the Exile never had the chance. And the masters were all killed, before they could reveal anything. So the republic 'preparing itself' for the war is a non-issue, because the republic still doesn't know that there is yet another threat waiting to be unleashed...

I don't see the gray jedi that way. And there is no "gray order", since gray jedi have no formalized order - they are simply jedi who don't submit to a life of struggling the dark side of the force and instead refuse to take a final and eternal stance in the continuing struggle between LS and DS.

I don't think the problem is that everybody loves Revan so much that we won't let anything bad happen to him. It's probably more that we don't want to play an amnesic jedi who lost his power a third time. That's my take on it, but I do get the impression that while most KotOR-fans want different things in K3, there does seem to be consensus that another jedi with lost powers is not acceptable. Revan did have a voice in K1, so he at least is not a problem. Some people may not have liked it, but it was there. And while I can speak only for myself, I'm not really going to worry about the voice of the Exile. As long it isn't completely laughable (in the sense of JarJar-ish or similar), it'll be fine by me.

I once gave the players some magical items that were really powerful and with no negative side-effects... They were really worried for a while... And me being such a nice GM <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, this happened to me too...and then, the owner of the artifacts showed up after 3-4 games <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I just gave out a few hints that the souls of demons were trapped in the artifacts... The players were so scared that I could just lean back and enjoy their paranoia for a few hours... Ah, it's good to be a GM...

An eye for an eye. Burn down their embassies, burn their flags, hold demostrations. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Burning foreign flags is illegal in Denmark, though burning the danish flag isn't. Go figure.

Sad but true. What do you guys think about that quote? Do you think it is imprudent for those press groups to publish material that is clearly offensive to muslims? Is it necessary to do? I appreciate freedom of speech, but if it will offend somebody else, then I won't say something just because it is my freedom. It really seems unnecessary and brazenly impertinent. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You only have freedom of speech if you are allowed to express your opinion, no matter what it is. To say things like "I think we should all be friends" is not an example, because that pretty much everyone can agree on that. The right only has meaning when the content is controversial or even offensive. To quote Thomas Payne: "He who dares not offend, cannot be honest" That is exactly that this is about - can we have a serious debate and approach a compromise or is dialogue pointless? Everybody is saying that dialogue is essential right now, but at the same time they call for people to restraint themselves in how they express themselves. That's hypocrisy of the highest degree. If we are to talk, then we should say what we think. Otherwise there is no point. SD-Kuriren don't sound like people I would ever associate with, but I do support their *right* to expres their extreme opinions - we need it in the public debate if it is to remain open and honest, since otherwise not all opinions are spoken. I'll reserve the right not to listen to them, though. Besides, censuring people doesn't mean that they change their opinions. Quite the contrary. And frequently the then find other and sometimes more violent ways by which to express themselves. For that reason alone, I would find that letting them speak to be the lesser evil.

You and I are on opposite sides in that "war of religion" you mention then. Don't get me wrong, I have no actual desire to belittle or redicule people's religion. But in a democracy of public debate, nothing should be above discussion, and that includes religion. If it is to be a part of daily life, then it should endure the same sort of criticism that all other subjects in society do. Like you I thought the cartoons were offensive and incendiary, but sometimes that is necessary to further the public debate, and other religions have endured this for a long time now. How long is it since Nietzsche declared that God was dead now? It was pretty offensive at the time, I'm sure... The muslims in Denmark wanted their religion to be accepted on equal terms with other religions, but they have failed to understand that this sort of skepticism comes with that acceptance. The fact that this was done is a greater sign that islam is an accepted religion than they could have asked for, because it meant that people did take it seriously. That they didn't like it is okay. That they protest against it is okay. That they send people to the Middle East and then lie about which cartoons were printed is not. Nor is that they cause so much hysteria in the Middle East that the extremists burn down embassies. And their cry for respect is hypocrisy, when they at the same time - as you say - demand "special considerations" for their own religion and talk about how "others cannot understand". Where is *their* respect for other relgions? It's a pact, after all - if you don't show me any respect, then why should I show any?

Hehe - eloquent... Actually, I think your reaction is a primary reason why the specifics of Revan and Exile would be selectable - it's the solution that annoys the fewest of the fans. Those who want a fixed gender/alignment can still set it to whatever they want, and it's not as if this is a major exercise in the game - Revan's gender and alignment were set in about two sentences in K2. That's not a big headache.

That's actually a good idea. I support that. I also think that surname should be Karath...

I once gave the players some magical items that were really powerful and with no negative side-effects... They were really worried for a while... And me being such a nice GM

Even if he does, I won't. Frangar, non flectar!!

Nothing prevents the devs from doing both a male and a female voice for Revan, especially not since I really doubt Revan will have a lot dialogue in the game. Yes, Revan will be a central character in the final showdown, but I really doubt that you will meet him (or her) until very late in the game. Alternate voices really aren't that unusual. In fact, they had alternate voices for Darth Traya in K2 depending on who ended up in that role. Shame it was cut, but you can still hear in the game files, if you want to btw - it's in the \StreamVoice\907\904KREIA\ folder.

Yeah, that'll happen.. "

Sex or gender...? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> According to cannon, Revan is male, so no sense hiding his gender. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Maybe so, but it's still a choice in the game even in K2. Lots of people play Revan as female, so there really is no reason to force the issue in K3. Although canon may declare Revan male, it does not automatically follow that he should be in K3 as well. K2 didn't dictate it either, after all. No need to alienate those who prefer a female Revan, even if I'll probably set Revan to male every time.

That's just sad So much for free speech in Sweden, I guess... and my opinion of that country's current administration.

Sex or gender...? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, I guess most of us prefer the former... " :D - Filthy thoughts R Us

Well, I agree with you that their alignments don't matter, though not for the reasons you describe. To me both Revan and the Exile will want to fight the true Sith to either save the republic (LS) or to destroy the only competitor to their own rule as dark lords (DS). Therefore they will fight against the true Sith either way. No, I think it's quite safe to say that they are the descendants of the ancient Sith empire that spawned dark lords like Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, and Marka Ragnos a thousand years before before the empire destroyed itself in the hyperspace war against the republic. What these sith have become after a thousand years of secrecy is anyone's guess, though. I see no reason why that has to happen. The Exile always followed Revan, and K2 ends with him following Revan again, whether good or evil. This also seems to fit best with the vision of Revan and the Exile in the tomb on Korriban in K2, I think. Well, the jedi order could go under same as it did in the movies era only to be reborn later. The republic cannot fall, no, but that doesn't mean it can't be ruled by an evil sith lord... I really hope they don't do that again. Been there, done that... That is strangely simiilar to what I have described in my plot speculations before. Then again, setting alignment and gender and whatnot is a really easy thing to do in the game. I cannot believe this will present any problem to the devs.

That yet remains to be seen. Even if we accept that Revan was a hero and sacrificed himself to the dark side to prevent a greater evil from destroying the republic - namely the true Sith - Revan still made a huge mistake. Like Ulic (and Luke), he thought he could control or conquer the dark side, and at that he failed miserably. Instead be became the very thing he had sworn to destroy and returned as the scourge of the galaxy to nearly wipe out the republic entirely. If the republic is saved in K3, it'll be bitter irony that Malak actually saved the republic by betraying Revan... Because I do think pre-K1 Darth Revan was a major threat to the republic, and as such he left it in a far worse condition to combat the true Sith than it started out as. Revan has a lot to answer and atone for, since it's his fault that the republic is virtually defenseless against the true Sith at the end of K2. LS Revan knows it too - that's why he left alone to fight the true Sith. Can he redeems himself? Only KotOR3 can tell...

Following that line of logic, all quality becomes relative and so nothing can ever be said about whether any game (or book, movie, or whatever) is good or bad. Also, you have basically suggested that Judge Hades stop expressing his opinion on the matter. Not a very polite thing to do in my book. I may not agree with him entirely, but I understand why he might want to express his opinions on the matter, because I feel much the same way myself. For every little Diablo-fanboy popping up here telling me how wonderful RPGs these games are and how much character development they have, I will exercise absolutely no restraint in telling them exactly how low my opinion is of said games and why, if I feel like it. I might refrain from doing this on the Diablo boards because it would be impolite, and I might refrain from doing it here as well, but only because I'm a nice person and not out to make people angry as such. If that is the consequence of me expressing my opinion on the matter, though, then so be it... I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Because it does infuriate me, when people call Diablo RPGs. It means ROLE-PLAYING game. What role are you playing when you slash away at endless hordes of monsters? Playing a role comes from the plot, and Diablo allows no choices for the player plotwise. None! You follow the fixed and predetermined progress in the plot, and that's it. Period. There is no deviation or choice along the way, only the question of how many monsters you want to kill and what treasure you randomly pick up. If they had called Diablo a straight action game or a hack'n slash game, then I would have been fine with it, only they didn't. They sold it as an RPG, and it's not. It has little or no true RPG elements in it. The character build is the closest thing, but the way it works in Diablo, it really is more a question of strategy than anything else. To suggest otherwise is the same as saying that a racing game is an rpg if you can customize the car and/or driver, or that a soccer game is an rpg if you have stats-modifications for the players - you still have to follow the race track in the first case and score goals in the second. The only difference lies in how you do it, hence strategy - not RPG. And the character build isn't even that impressive. There may seem to be many, but how many paladins do not spam the zeal and fanaticism skills with points? The same goes for the rest of the characters btw (and I have played those). There are far more choice and character development in many other RPGs, and the only reason people might like Diablo II's system better is if they prefer monster slashing with visual effects over true character growth. In Diablo II the characters are just vehicles that you use to combat the baddies with, just the same as when you customize or upgrade your mech in Mechwarrior or similar. If people like that, fair enough - just don't call it an RPG.

Actually I find the dialogue of the cut content to be the most interesting to read through. It may not be considered "real" insofar that it was cut from the game and doesn't appear during any playthrough, but it's still interesting and enlightening in the sense of what the devs had in mind.

that wasn't much help there are many cut things in there, a dlg file maybe? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, if you want to see the text, there's not much of an alternative. I usually open dialog.tlk in notepad and then perform a search with the quotes I want to find.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think that comming begs the question of where the ground battle that the Exile relived in the tomb on Korriban took place? It was clearly against the Mandalorians, but I don't recall if it was ever mentioned, where it was fought.