Jediphile

They were CRPGs for their day and age, but their day has long since past. The genre has evolved in case you didn't noticed. If a gold box styled game tried to come out today it wouldn't be a CRPG by today's standard. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sure they would be. Imho, technical limitations were the only things keeping the developers from adding as much depth and detail as they may have wanted. That said, games like Curse of the Azure Bonds and Champions of Krynn had fairly detailed stories, from what I remember. Plus they were based on AD&D rules -- can't get much more RPG than that. The first game that really started to get away from that was Hillsfar, and that was a truly awful game. I'd say the old goldbox games would be alot like the IWD series. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's not whether it's based on AD&D rules or whatever that decides whether it's an RPG. What decides is whether there is Role-Playing in it. That means that there must be genuine choice. A game that has a completely fixed plot and progress is not an RPG. This is true for the Diablo games - the plot is fixed and there is only one way to progress through it until the predetermined end. Not so for the old gold box games. The plots were fairly fixed, yes, but it was usually divided into submissions, which you could then take in any order and even skip some completely. I still remember fondly how I chose between the various missions in the townhall of Phlan in "Pool of Radiance" (the original!) - I may have played them all because I wanted to explore every corner of the game, but I didn't have to - it was my choice to play them all. You can't do that in Diablo - there is a fixed progression of events that you must follow whether you like it or not. I may have enjoyed Diablo at times, but I never mistook it for an RPG. KotOR games are more RPGs, because you have choice in many situations - will you buy the wraid shell off the poor woman who lost her husband

It says so, yes, but even if it is true that LA has set Revan as LS in canon, it's still immaterial to the progress of the KotOR games. You can definitely set Revan to DS in K2, and K3 is almost certainly going to take flak if it proceeds on the basis of just presuming that Revan (and possibly the Exile too) was LS. Though I certainly prefer LS myself (and played DS just once in each game just to see the alternatives), there are lots of fans who'll be disappointed if Revan (or Exile) is suddenly fixed in a certainl alignment... let alone gender <_< I don't think it will matter, though. K1 had a very final ending, where the outcome for LS or DS were quite different. K2 seems to do a lot of work to "reconcile" the two very different endings in K1, so that you can play the same plot with a great degree of consistency either way, and in the end you identify an enemy - the true Sith - who is common to both LS and DS. K2 seems engineered plotwise toward reconciling the different outcomes of K1 and set up a common ground situation for K3. It did a good job of it too, though there are a few plotholes here and there - the StarForge being just sort of discarded in the DS Revan option for one, while the true Sith seem to be a very opportune enemy - suddenly they were there manipulating events all the time, even staging the Mandalorian Wars and so forth... On the other hand, LS Revan's work to save the republic is almost ruined in K2 with Sion and Nihilus hunting down most of the remaining jedi. But to answer your question, no, I don't think the republic is prepared enough. I think Revan realised this, and that is why he left. If we presume that Kreia is right and Revan decided to sacrifice himself by becoming the Dark Lord to prevent a greater evil (and I prefer that, since it makes Revan's story even more tragic), then Revan has made a very big mistake, because in his zeal to stand against the enemy he saw (the true Sith), he did exactly what Anakin did - he became the very thing he had sworn to destroy. After K1 Revan left alone, because he would not be the cause of any more corruption to the jedi in his stand against the true Sith. I also think he altered his tactics for fighting them, but that's pure conjecture.

Just like some people on here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ouch! :">

I thought they were mildly entertaining. Certainly the visuals (i.e., the movies) were excellent. But I sure don't want to hear *anyone* calling these "hack 'n slash"-fests Role-Playing Games - they're not!

Revan and the jedi masters would disagree, I think...

True - I love it when a swarm of insects drop random treasure like a full plate mail... "

Why can't the Exile love Handmaiden (male Exile) or Atton (female Exile)? They do appear as genuine love interests in K2. Mira is said to die on some forgotten planet, yes, but Kreia also says that this will happen "in many years time", so it seems incorrect to assume anything about her in K3. I would agree with you on Mandalore, though. I don't see why any of the other characters would be there, except for T3 and HK-47, which seems to be serve the same function that R2 and 3PO did in the movies. Atton and Handmaiden would not be appropriate for the same reasons that you cite for Visas and Disciple, perhaps Handmaiden more so, since you can get the same argument from Kreia about leaving those you love behind for her that you can for Visas (male) and Disciple (female). Besides, Handmaiden is supposed to take up Atris' role of historian (LS), so it wouldn't be appropriate to make her a companion in K3. And I don't see why Bao-Dur or Carth would be in there at all. Sure, they will be there as NPCs that you can meet (depending on the alignments of Revan and Exile), but I don't see them as companions. Since Kreia mentions the Exile's companions as 'the Lost Jedi', I find it more likely they will form the basis of a new emerging jedi order, and Bao-Dur would be part of that (unless he is considered to have died, as it was apparently planned in K2). Carth shouldn't be a companion because he is an admiral in the republic fleet (LS Revan). He would be significant in a game where Revan is female, but that would be relevant only toward the end of the game, I think, where he can serve the same plot purpose as an NPC. Personally, I'd rather have a smaller party, where people come and go. I suggested once (in case of a LS Revan) that you could meet Jolee and have him join the group, only he would remain on the planet where you met him and not travel with you. So once you left, he would leave the group again. A temporary companion, if you will. I'd like to see something similar for Mission, Zaalbar and Hanharr. I do think, though, that one companion should definitely be Bastila

No, you're not...

This sounds like a reasonable beginning, though it's not what I would have done. It's still just a background, isn't it? I mean, who is the central PC in this plot? Also, Revan left the republic a year after the events of K1, which means that by the end of K2, he has been gone for over four years. That's a pretty big gap to fill with just an explanation of him being captured by the true Sith. And then there's the question of why they leave him alive. Revan is a great threat to the true Sith, so leaving him alive, even as a prisoner, really just gives him the option of escaping later (sort of like all the villains in the Bond movies, who always tell him all their plans, then leave him to die instead of just putting a bullet in his head and get it over with...)

Yes, but I never thought of lightsabers or guns as problematic. No, far worse is the joy of watching Exile or whoever casually poking his vibroblade *through* the chair and body of Atton or other companion during a cutscene Fix the clipping errors!

Besides, the Exile doesn't need to kill people in order absorb power from them. Indeed, they very much need to be alive for him to do that. He also is not forced onto a path of confrotations and duels with his fellow "immortals". PS: I didn't even think the first Highlander movie was that good...

Well, the truth is that since I play AD&D, I really do need fights in there now and then, since that is what the characters are automatically skilled at in D&D. Well, I don't *need* fights, but my players tend to get bored (at least some of them) if we go for several nights without a fight... That said, I do tone it down a lot and try to limit it to the crucial battles. After all, with all the characters being level 13+, why should I go through the pointless dice-rolling exercise of running their random encounter with a war party of 11 orcs? I just tell them that they randomly encounter the orcs and kill them or chase them off, then continue on their way. End of story - case closed! I did manage to persuade them to avoid fighting at one point. I had an old enemy - a powerful wizard - capture the entire group and throw them in prison. Now they had to escape, but naturally they had none of their equipment, they were all rather damaged, and the spellcasters had no magic with both spellbooks and holy symbols removed and no spells currently memorized. That made it a challenge because even a fight with three lowly prison guards was a challenge, since they did have weapons and armor, while the group had none, nor any means of healing. And naturally I had staged it so that the weapons and armor they could capture was of little or no use to them... For true non-fights I also recommend plots, where the characters are framed for something. The authorities think they're guilty, but can't prove, so they give the PCs a time limit to clear their own names and catch the real criminals. This is best in a city setting, where the characters cannot get into random fights without coming to the attention of the city guard and thereby confirm the authories suspicions of their guilt. The PCs will have to talk and investigate, and their weapons and magic won't help them, because a fight will only bring them into more trouble. Investigate magic will be very useful, though. Yet another form of investigate scenario is the timed "whodunit" plot. Basically it begins with a murder, and everyone present - including the PCs, naturally - are suspects. Anyone trying to leave or becoming violent will only cast suspicion upon himself, and so group pressure helps to keep everyone together until the murderer can be discovered. You can also isolate the PCs with the other NPCs on an island, a mansion far from civilization, or whatever. However, the GM also has a timeline that states at what times more things will happen. People will disappear, some more will be found murdered, and other strange things. This can work quite well even in D&D, though you might get a fight in the end, when the murderer is identified.

Oh my god - they killed Billy! The bastards!

Seemed the other way around to me. Could I ask you to elaborate? True. I actually had a rodian jedi master as an optional NPC on Coruscant in my own K3 plot suggestion... Apart from the Sith trying to subvert the republic and conquer the galaxy, that seems to be about the only constant in the Star Wars universe... :D

I'm actually surprised to find that this is a really difficult question for me to answer... Let me see, I like Alderaan, but perhaps mostly because we never hear about it. It sounds nice, though. I also like planets that are very mysterious. Korriban is one, but since I like the jedi, I'd be more partial to Ossus. From the old comic books I also remember liking Iskalon. Hmm... the worlds I seem to like have all been pretty much wiped out... Maybe I'm revealing too much about myself by mentioning them Still, I'd probably go for Ossus, pre-destruction by Exar Kun.

Yes, indeed - where are my droideka?

While I might go for that, I sincerely doubt it would ever happen - spoken dialogue is the industry standard these days, so it seems highly doubtful they will go for that, since sales would almost certainly drop rather a lot.

You know how I said you could set the alignment, appearence and gender of Revan and the Exile? Well, you know, you could make say Revan LS and Exile DS for example, it's up to you! You don't have to give them both the same alignment if you don't want to. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, but my point was that I am likely to set them both to LS, so where does that leave your idea that they will be enemies?

One thing I liked better in K1 were the treasure drops. I *hate* it when I can physically see my enemies wearing certain armors and using specific weapons against me, and yet these are magically gone afterwards - that's bad roleplaying. If the idea is that the equipment was damaged beyond repair, then fine, but not *all* of it *every* time! K1 may have cut down the weapons of a group of attacking Sith, but there was a very high probability of finding at least one of their lightsabers afterwards. Not perfect perhaps, but better than K2, which seemed closer to Diablo 2 where you have swarms of insects dropping heavy plate armors as random loot

Atton: "Yes, I killed jedi for the sith and I was good at it. I even killed the last one, who saved my life, so now I have to live with that burden. Isn't that terrible for me and don't I deserve pity for that?" <insert more optional whining here> Semi-LS Exile <thinks long and hard...>: "No!" <slices Atton's head off>

Fairy tale. They do, and they give even more XP (but no goodiees) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> :">

Precisely. Atton: "Then she must be royalty, because she's got to be Queen of the Galaxy to bark out orders like that. Or maybe she's senile.I mean, how old do you think she is? She may have been good-looking once, but it takes some hard living to make creases like that." That's an exact quote from the game.

no. KOTOR I was loosely based on the setting described in the Dark Horse Tales of the Jedi comics, that, essentially, tell the story of Exar Kun and the Sith War. KOTOR is about 40 years after Kun's demise, IIRC. the first KOTOR comic was released Jan 2006. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually - just to make the confusion complete - the original Tales of the Jedi comic books were reprinted and collected in a trade paperback which was indeed called... yes: Knights of the Old Republic - no question where the games got their name from... EDIT: Note that these books are indeed the earliest stories of the entire KotOR era and all take place well before Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma fell to the dark side.

Yes, I'd like to begin as a youngling-just-turned-padawan and then spent a sort "introduction" opening of the game, where you do "jedi business" uncovering smugglers and taking down criminals on the streets of Coruscant. Would be nice to explore the master-padawan relationship a bit before the more serious plot begins.

Yes, I would agree with that. A point that I have not made regarding letting an imprisoned man publish a book is that his thoughts might serve to shed light on the subject in the public forum and provoke discussion that can benefit society at large. While that will certainly not always be the case, I would not wish the possibility of it thrown out due to resentment over what this person has done in the past. Others might learn from his mistakes, after all, and that can be a valuable resource. You lost me...