Jediphile

Whoever that master is, it's not Kreia, unless Kreia indeed is Kae. Disciple: "Revan sought out many other teachers to learn certain techniques. I do not recall who Revan's master was... strange. As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that.And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had.And such teachings and their teachers is why I harbor doubts, why I wonder if something is missing from the Jedi code." The confusion here lies with the Disciple's inability to remember who Revan's master was after Kae. Since Kreia plays tricks on the Disciple's mind throughout the game, we might presume that she is protecting her own identity, and that Revan's master after Kae that Disciple cannot remember is indeed Kreia herself, which would indeed suggest that Kreia is not Kae. However, that conclusion is disputed by other clues. Note that Disciple in the above actually mentions that Revan eventually returned to his first and final master to learn how to leave the order. We know that master is Kreia, since she says so herself: Kreia: "He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself.And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each.But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever." Disciple also confirms this by other statements he makes, which again mentions Kae as one of Revan's masters: Disciple: "Many Jedi defied the Order during the Mandalorian Wars - and it paved the way for the Jedi Civil War.There is no blame - all must accept. But at its core, one must wonder if it was the failure of the Jedi teachings... or the teachers themselves. Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing. Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques.It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order." This confirms from both Disciple and Kreia that Revan's first master was also his last. That master is Kreia by her own admission, though Disciple never actually says so. But even if we doubt her words, the Disciple still confirms that Revan's first and last master taught how to leave the order, which would be consistent for Kreia. And since the master Disciple cannot remember came after Kae but before Kreia, it must either be someone else entirely or else this next master was really still Kreia/Kae during a part of her history that she prefers to keep to herself - she cannot dismiss the existence of Kae, but she can make Kae into another person and then distance herself from that persona... Also note that the Disciple mentions that Revan did not merely train under Master Kae, but was actually her padawan, suggesting that she may indeed have been Revan's first master, in which case she would be Kreia, since Revan did return to her in the end. Also, in Kreia's comments, she indeed says that Revan was once her padawan (her quote above), which seems to support that point.

Did the reasons for their actions make sense? Yup. And there are differences in the outcome. The masters don't turn on my on Dantooine if I'm truly DS, since I've already killed them all. Atris may want to kill me, but she's fallen to the dark side. I can *choose* whether to kill her or not (same thing for Mira fighting Hanharr on Malachor V btw). Malachor V is destroyed or continues to exist depending on my choice. But then I guess the death of an entire planet doesn't count as a genuine choice...

Lol. Loads of broken Sarcasm detectors this week. FAR above avarage... Indeed. But you tried so... "What you think of it"; Hmmmm... does that includes insulting Feargus Urquharts knowledge of RPG's <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I just love the fact that you make fun at me for not liking your sarcasm and then immediately proceed to slam me for making a far less ironic comment... Tell you what, if Feargus tells me he was offended, then I'll accept that I went too far and apologize to him. But somehow I think he has a better sense of humor than you do. You really should run down to the shop and get your sense of humor replaced - it is in sore need. And you better do it before criticising others for making ironic comments while making sarcastic comments yourself and thinking that's okay gets you into real trouble. Then again, I guess your position is twice as good as a straight standard... " I stand corrected - making deals with devils and demons is totally unheard of, of course... " Indeed they are. Kreia's choice for example is like you describe Diablo; Do I wan't to kill her with A, B or C? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's a circular argument and you know it, since Kreia won't let you make another choice- you already made your DS/LS choice at that point in the game. Your argument here is deliberately sophistry as far as I can tell.

And have you EVER seen this in a computer RPG. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Does Revan's background have relevance in K1 or the Exile's in K2? "

Besides the definition of RPG isn't really open for "personal opinion". Ofcourse if you like or not like a game is personal, but the genre is not. You cannot be right in ANY way if you think or in your opinion C&C is a TBS or RPG or Adventure or FPS. And I don't try to "make you see Diablo 2" I am just "disagreeing with you" and giving reasons why I and many other disagree with your opinion... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ahem... Lolz Doom = RPG Painkiller = RPG Serious Sam = RPG Half-Life = RPG Monkey Island = RPG Grim Fandango = RPG Gabriel Knight = RPG GTA San Andreas = RPG GTA Vice City = RPG Age of Empires = RPG Civilization = RPG Republic = RPG The Sims = RPG Boiling Point = RPG Empire at War = RPG Black & White = RPG Populous = RPG Etc. etc. etc. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Defend RPG status as in Defend it from gaining RPG-status... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don't be silly - clearly I don't have the authority to assign RPG status to the game or not. I can only say what I think of it, and that's what I did. And in exactly what Video Game RPG CAN you do that? Can you side with Malak? NO. Can you side with Kreia, Nihilus and Sion? NO (not in the way the game was shipped atleast). Can you side with Sarevok? NO. Can you side with TTO? No (ok, you could merge, but that ain't joining like helping him in his fight)... You base your "Diablo 2 is no RPG" on stuff you don't even find in what you think are RPG's... and I can tell you it doesn't help in convincing others... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The option to become Nihilus' apprentice was cut from K2, but it was considered. And Kreia doesn't want you to submit to her - she wants to force you to acknowledge the truth of the force and what your force wound means. Whether you handle that in a LS or DS manner is up to you. Of course you don't side with Malak - he usurped *your* power and *your* rightful throne. So obviously you want to either cast out the usurper (DS) or else end the tyranny of the oppressor (LS)... Oh, wait... Those are not choices, right?

It's not a matter of who dicates the background as much as whether that background has any significance in the game at all. I dare say people can ignore the Diablo class descriptions without losing any context in the game. In KotOR I may not know much about the characters when I begin, but I'm interested. I found it really annoying that I knew so little about the Exile's past, when I began K2 - made it very difficult to understand the character. In BG, my character grew up in Candlekeep, and Imoen is an old friend. In Diablo I don't know and it doesn't even matter. You never click any answers in Diablo, and even if you did, they wouldn't matter in the plot. You can define your character background as you want, yes, but it hardly matters. It has no significance to the game at all. But what does it matter if that springboard doesn't lead you anywhere? You might just as well not bother in the first place. Except in a PnP game, the depth I give the character will have significance, since it will define how I play the character, what his choices will be, what he will say to people, etc. Over time the GM will also make this significant, since he will know how my character is likely to react and present challenges on that basis. In Diablo, the imagined background is just pure make believe, because it'll never matter...

What background are you speaking of? In the Vault Dweller's case the only information offered is that the character was born in Vault 13, and that up until the start of the game lived therein. I mean to say, there's no given rationale why my character would be leaving the Vault at sixteen rather than twenty six or why they have more skill with small guns than with first aid. A vicious loner will begin the game the same as a gregarious charmer. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The point is, you still have a pretty good idea of what the character is feeling when he (or she) is unceremoniously is thrown out of the vault to solve all the problems for everybody. You have motive and ambitions, but you also have a good idea of what you think of the overseer and other people in the vault.

The point is that you can answer most of those questions, and the rest are fairly obvious. We may not know the names of the Vault Dweller's parents, but we know enough about his/her background to presume the rest. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What about Icewind Dale then? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Never played Icewind Dale, so I really can't say. Besides, I... dislike Forgotten Realms...

Seriously ? And do you tell your players what their character backgrounds are before you start a game ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No. I get them to make it up. Once they do, I work it into the ongoing campaign.

Already answered that. Well, you try the same with Feargus; so why can you do so with a Dev. but can't I try with you? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There is a difference between saying you disagree with someone and trying to prove them wrong or even telling them that they cannot have the opinion they have. I said I disagreed with Feargus and why. You told me my opinion was invalid and then tried to prove that I was wrong. That's always a mistake, because a person's perception of things is always indisputable. I don't actually have to put "I think" or similar together with every statement I write, but I actually did so in this case. The only thing you can take exception with is dictionary.com's defintion of an RPG, which I never said was mine anyway. Everybody else says Diablo is a RPG; making you NOT "everybody else" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Except that was in a different context. And still enough time to defend Diablo2's RPG status from me and ShadowPaladin. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Never defended it's RPG status. Why would I, when I don't consider it to be one? And in exactly WHAT RPG does that do that? And what does it have to do with the discussion at hand? Do you claim Diablo2 is no RPG because it is consistant (in keeping killing... no stopping, like in your example)? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, I'm saying that I don't consider it to be one, because there is no consistent RPG choices involved - you follow one rigidly fixed and linear plot with no deviation possible. You cannot turn on Tyriel and side with Diablo and his minions, nor can you try to redeem any of the baddies along the way. It's all predetermined and fixed with no possibility of choice, and there is no depth or even existence of your character beyond the skills and stats you build. Where are the motives and ambitions of the character you are supposed to play? There are none. They do not exist.

You never played PnP did you ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, I did. I've been a GM for over a decade and a half and continue to be.

There are no answers to questions like that in PnP either. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There are unless you're playing total hack'n slash/dungeon crawl, which is closer to board games like HeroQuest than to RPGs. You're missing my point. Is the PC a character or a vehicle? It's a character in KotOR, Fallout, and a host of other games. It's a vehicle in Diablo 2, built up over time much as you do a mech in MechWarrior or similar - there is no dialogue and no building of actual character. Those are one page "excuses" for each character class. They don't exactly cover the complexity of an individual. I simply cannot see Diablo 2 PCs as actual characters - they are just tools/weapons that I fight the game's baddies with and nothing more. They have no character depth of any sort.

Let's answer said questions for Revan/Exile Parents: unknown/unknown Grow up: unknown/said ingame but forgot. Could be implentation of Jedi Council Why a Jedi?: unknown/unknown Friends?: unknown/Malak long-term goals: unknown/unknown (end dependant) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> We do know that Revan's mother is dead - Revan tells Bastila's mother so. He also tells Bastila that he comes from Deralia. And how can you say the Exile has no known friends, when we know that most of them probably died on Malachor V and that he has a special friendship with Bao-Dur due to their common experiences there. As for long-term goals, isn't Revan's long-term goals at the very heart of K2? Exile's is to find out about the force bond with Kreia and what to do about it. Once he figures it out, the endgame decides what he wants to do about it. His motives are at the core of the game, whereas we really don't have to care about what or why the PC of Diablo 2 wants to do - it simply doesn't matter...

The point is that you can answer most of those questions, and the rest are fairly obvious. We may not know the names of the Vault Dweller's parents, but we know enough about his/her background to presume the rest.

Maybe because you actually clinge to that definition. It would probably not difficult to find another explenation in an other dictionary. Might look it up after making this post in my own! EDIT; my dictonary doesn't even know the word But what you think is a RPG doesn't form the RPG-specifics. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Have I claimed that? I've said that *I* don't think of Diablo 2 (or even Diablo 1) as an RPG and I've given a link. Discuss the link all you like, just don't slam me for it if you disagree. And don't presume to tell me what I can and cannot think of Diablo 2. I'll make up my own mind on that, if you don't mind, and even if you do... Ah, now I know you're wrong, because I'm part of "everybody else", and I don't know Deus Ex and so couldn't say. And besides, I really wouldn't care... I guess I could roll my eyes too, but then I don't have the time, if I had to do justice to just how much I'm doing in in RL now... When you're done, maybe you should see my other reply, before you continue. Then again, nothing ruins a good discussion as much as someone who knows what he's talking about, so maybe not... DEBATE = ILLEGAL On a more serious note; Actually, that was a request if you couldn't please explain a little better what you actually meant with that part of text which seemed totally independant of ANYTHING discussed here... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, of course... My bad for trying to say that consistent role-playing should be significant to the role-playing experience...

I think I place more emphasis on the point where it comes to "assume the roles of characters" than you do. Who do I assume the role of a character that I know nothing about? I may know a little about what powers the sorceress has or can get or what the paladin's principles are, but that's not much basis on which to "assume the role of a character". Who were this character's parents? Where did he/she grow up? Why did he become a paladin (or whatever class)? Who were his/her friends during the various parts of his life? What are the long-term goals of the character? There are no answers to those questions in a game like Diablo 2, and so the characters have no substance - they are nothing more than devices or tools by which the player interacts with the game. And either their motives and perceptions don't matter in the plot at all or else, worse, they don't even have any. Not so in KotOR, Fallout, Ultima and a host of other games already mentioned, and which I therefore consider to be RPGs.

Nice definitions you chough up. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How you can possibly call this *my* definition AFTER I GAVE YOU THE BLOODY LINK is completely beyond me... Again, TAKE IT UP WITH THE DICTIONARIES IF YOU DISAGREE... You're also forgetting that I have consistently said that *I* don't consider Diablo 2 to be an RPG. Whether I think of it as one is indisputable - you cannot tell me what I can or should think!! That you try anyway says a lot... "

Begone Sithspawn!!

Not my definition, I'm afraid... Take it up with the dictionaries if you disagree... Wait? What is the result of Kotor/Kotor2/BG/BG2/IWD/IWD2/PS:T sidequests on the end or the rest of the story? NOTHING. Omg... they are all NOT RPG'S! Maybe that is why they are called SIDEquests... but ofcourse I am wrong on that <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Depends entirely on whether you play a consistent or opportunist character. KotOR games may not force, but I can tell you that I would be heavily penalized by the GM if I went into "kill everything in sight"-mode on Kashyyyk only to then play pious and protect the weak on Manaan. I know I would treat a player the same myself as a GM It is a sad truth, however, that many CPRGs don't press this point... A player behaving totally DS on one planet and saintly on the next should receive stiff xp penalties or be otherwise penalized by the game mechanics, while consistent play should be rewarded.

Does indigo prophecy have statitics ? Or is it based purely on the players ability to perform a task ? If the it's the latter , then that's why it's not an RPG. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't know Indigo Prophecy at all, so I cannot comment either way.

MY definition? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're the one who brought KotOR into this. I can understand if you want to retract on the basis of not having a good case, though... Wait. Diablo 2 has sub-quests. You can or cannot complete them! Choice! RPG! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, it just has a few quests that you can leave uncompleted. Whether you want those rewards or not is immaterial - it still will not affect the further plot in the slightest. You'll still face the Smith even if you don't want to find Charsi's hammer. Hence, no choice. Hence, no RPG.

But thats exactly what you are doing with Diablo II. You ignoring any roleplaying elements that dont suit your definition. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, I don't ignore them. I just don't think they make for a role-playing experience in my eyes, even though they do try to masquerade as one.

Never said it did. But it does make the choices that much less obvious. For the record. If an FPS with no statistical elements has multiple endings does that make it an RPG ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't know. Does it have alternate outcomes of conflicts along the way, like leaving Onderon in the hands of either the queen or general Vaklu or either killing or saving the giant firaxan shark on Manaan? But then it's an academic question, since you ask it in a hypothetical manner...

Guess you never played some of them then to make such false statements Would include all of the above? What above? You mean freedom? Now where is the freedom in alot of other RPG's? Take Kotor for example. Always seeking the 4 maps. Always go to the SF. Same with Kotor2; always seek the 4 masters then follow the

Thats actually not true. There is a degree of randomness, not only in which creatures can appear, but also in what powers they may have. What may be a walkover encounter in one game will become really nasty if a particular creature draws a certain powerset. Plus there is randomness in what items you come across. So giving your barbarian master level in swords, dosnt do you a great deal of good if you cant find one. It is by the accepted definition which is why it's catagorised as one nearly everywhere you look. Plus of course if your taking it as a whole, then it has the same potential for roleplaying as any online game does when you add other people. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Randomness does not equal choice. Therefore, not an RPG.