Jediphile

Already answered that. Well, you try the same with Feargus; so why can you do so with a Dev. but can't I try with you? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There is a difference between saying you disagree with someone and trying to prove them wrong or even telling them that they cannot have the opinion they have. I said I disagreed with Feargus and why. You told me my opinion was invalid and then tried to prove that I was wrong. That's always a mistake, because a person's perception of things is always indisputable. I don't actually have to put "I think" or similar together with every statement I write, but I actually did so in this case. The only thing you can take exception with is dictionary.com's defintion of an RPG, which I never said was mine anyway. Everybody else says Diablo is a RPG; making you NOT "everybody else" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Except that was in a different context. And still enough time to defend Diablo2's RPG status from me and ShadowPaladin. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Never defended it's RPG status. Why would I, when I don't consider it to be one? And in exactly WHAT RPG does that do that? And what does it have to do with the discussion at hand? Do you claim Diablo2 is no RPG because it is consistant (in keeping killing... no stopping, like in your example)? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, I'm saying that I don't consider it to be one, because there is no consistent RPG choices involved - you follow one rigidly fixed and linear plot with no deviation possible. You cannot turn on Tyriel and side with Diablo and his minions, nor can you try to redeem any of the baddies along the way. It's all predetermined and fixed with no possibility of choice, and there is no depth or even existence of your character beyond the skills and stats you build. Where are the motives and ambitions of the character you are supposed to play? There are none. They do not exist.

You never played PnP did you ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, I did. I've been a GM for over a decade and a half and continue to be.

There are no answers to questions like that in PnP either. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There are unless you're playing total hack'n slash/dungeon crawl, which is closer to board games like HeroQuest than to RPGs. You're missing my point. Is the PC a character or a vehicle? It's a character in KotOR, Fallout, and a host of other games. It's a vehicle in Diablo 2, built up over time much as you do a mech in MechWarrior or similar - there is no dialogue and no building of actual character. Those are one page "excuses" for each character class. They don't exactly cover the complexity of an individual. I simply cannot see Diablo 2 PCs as actual characters - they are just tools/weapons that I fight the game's baddies with and nothing more. They have no character depth of any sort.

Let's answer said questions for Revan/Exile Parents: unknown/unknown Grow up: unknown/said ingame but forgot. Could be implentation of Jedi Council Why a Jedi?: unknown/unknown Friends?: unknown/Malak long-term goals: unknown/unknown (end dependant) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> We do know that Revan's mother is dead - Revan tells Bastila's mother so. He also tells Bastila that he comes from Deralia. And how can you say the Exile has no known friends, when we know that most of them probably died on Malachor V and that he has a special friendship with Bao-Dur due to their common experiences there. As for long-term goals, isn't Revan's long-term goals at the very heart of K2? Exile's is to find out about the force bond with Kreia and what to do about it. Once he figures it out, the endgame decides what he wants to do about it. His motives are at the core of the game, whereas we really don't have to care about what or why the PC of Diablo 2 wants to do - it simply doesn't matter...

The point is that you can answer most of those questions, and the rest are fairly obvious. We may not know the names of the Vault Dweller's parents, but we know enough about his/her background to presume the rest.

Maybe because you actually clinge to that definition. It would probably not difficult to find another explenation in an other dictionary. Might look it up after making this post in my own! EDIT; my dictonary doesn't even know the word But what you think is a RPG doesn't form the RPG-specifics. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Have I claimed that? I've said that *I* don't think of Diablo 2 (or even Diablo 1) as an RPG and I've given a link. Discuss the link all you like, just don't slam me for it if you disagree. And don't presume to tell me what I can and cannot think of Diablo 2. I'll make up my own mind on that, if you don't mind, and even if you do... Ah, now I know you're wrong, because I'm part of "everybody else", and I don't know Deus Ex and so couldn't say. And besides, I really wouldn't care... I guess I could roll my eyes too, but then I don't have the time, if I had to do justice to just how much I'm doing in in RL now... When you're done, maybe you should see my other reply, before you continue. Then again, nothing ruins a good discussion as much as someone who knows what he's talking about, so maybe not... DEBATE = ILLEGAL On a more serious note; Actually, that was a request if you couldn't please explain a little better what you actually meant with that part of text which seemed totally independant of ANYTHING discussed here... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, of course... My bad for trying to say that consistent role-playing should be significant to the role-playing experience...

I think I place more emphasis on the point where it comes to "assume the roles of characters" than you do. Who do I assume the role of a character that I know nothing about? I may know a little about what powers the sorceress has or can get or what the paladin's principles are, but that's not much basis on which to "assume the role of a character". Who were this character's parents? Where did he/she grow up? Why did he become a paladin (or whatever class)? Who were his/her friends during the various parts of his life? What are the long-term goals of the character? There are no answers to those questions in a game like Diablo 2, and so the characters have no substance - they are nothing more than devices or tools by which the player interacts with the game. And either their motives and perceptions don't matter in the plot at all or else, worse, they don't even have any. Not so in KotOR, Fallout, Ultima and a host of other games already mentioned, and which I therefore consider to be RPGs.

Nice definitions you chough up. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How you can possibly call this *my* definition AFTER I GAVE YOU THE BLOODY LINK is completely beyond me... Again, TAKE IT UP WITH THE DICTIONARIES IF YOU DISAGREE... You're also forgetting that I have consistently said that *I* don't consider Diablo 2 to be an RPG. Whether I think of it as one is indisputable - you cannot tell me what I can or should think!! That you try anyway says a lot... "

Begone Sithspawn!!

Not my definition, I'm afraid... Take it up with the dictionaries if you disagree... Wait? What is the result of Kotor/Kotor2/BG/BG2/IWD/IWD2/PS:T sidequests on the end or the rest of the story? NOTHING. Omg... they are all NOT RPG'S! Maybe that is why they are called SIDEquests... but ofcourse I am wrong on that <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Depends entirely on whether you play a consistent or opportunist character. KotOR games may not force, but I can tell you that I would be heavily penalized by the GM if I went into "kill everything in sight"-mode on Kashyyyk only to then play pious and protect the weak on Manaan. I know I would treat a player the same myself as a GM It is a sad truth, however, that many CPRGs don't press this point... A player behaving totally DS on one planet and saintly on the next should receive stiff xp penalties or be otherwise penalized by the game mechanics, while consistent play should be rewarded.

Does indigo prophecy have statitics ? Or is it based purely on the players ability to perform a task ? If the it's the latter , then that's why it's not an RPG. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't know Indigo Prophecy at all, so I cannot comment either way.

MY definition? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're the one who brought KotOR into this. I can understand if you want to retract on the basis of not having a good case, though... Wait. Diablo 2 has sub-quests. You can or cannot complete them! Choice! RPG! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, it just has a few quests that you can leave uncompleted. Whether you want those rewards or not is immaterial - it still will not affect the further plot in the slightest. You'll still face the Smith even if you don't want to find Charsi's hammer. Hence, no choice. Hence, no RPG.

But thats exactly what you are doing with Diablo II. You ignoring any roleplaying elements that dont suit your definition. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, I don't ignore them. I just don't think they make for a role-playing experience in my eyes, even though they do try to masquerade as one.

Never said it did. But it does make the choices that much less obvious. For the record. If an FPS with no statistical elements has multiple endings does that make it an RPG ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't know. Does it have alternate outcomes of conflicts along the way, like leaving Onderon in the hands of either the queen or general Vaklu or either killing or saving the giant firaxan shark on Manaan? But then it's an academic question, since you ask it in a hypothetical manner...

Guess you never played some of them then to make such false statements Would include all of the above? What above? You mean freedom? Now where is the freedom in alot of other RPG's? Take Kotor for example. Always seeking the 4 maps. Always go to the SF. Same with Kotor2; always seek the 4 masters then follow the

Thats actually not true. There is a degree of randomness, not only in which creatures can appear, but also in what powers they may have. What may be a walkover encounter in one game will become really nasty if a particular creature draws a certain powerset. Plus there is randomness in what items you come across. So giving your barbarian master level in swords, dosnt do you a great deal of good if you cant find one. It is by the accepted definition which is why it's catagorised as one nearly everywhere you look. Plus of course if your taking it as a whole, then it has the same potential for roleplaying as any online game does when you add other people. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Randomness does not equal choice. Therefore, not an RPG.

Lolz Doom = RPG Painkiller = RPG Serious Sam = RPG Half-Life = RPG Monkey Island = RPG Grim Fandango = RPG Gabriel Knight = RPG GTA San Andreas = RPG GTA Vice City = RPG Age of Empires = RPG Civilization = RPG Republic = RPG The Sims = RPG Boiling Point = RPG Empire at War = RPG Black & White = RPG Populous = RPG Etc. etc. etc. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nope. Complete lack of true choice in all those. They all have one fixed way in which things must be done and no other and no alternatives. If Diablo 2 was an RPG, then the definition would include all of the above. I don't think so, and that's why I also don't think Diablo 2 is an RPG.

"Beauty never fades" (Animatrix edit) by Junkie XL featuring Saffron.

- I hate when that happens... :D

I'd rather call him a Diablo2-is-an-RPG-apologist - far worse in my book

Those choices are very important though. They impact on how the rest of the game plays out. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Only in the sense of how you kill the baddies... Whatever skills you focus on, you have to face the same enemies with the same powers using the same tactics and in the same places... The only difference remains how you perform euthanasia on them... And you call that a role-playing experience? If so, then I must politely disagree...

Feargus said it is an RPG. Period. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, he's just a big meanie who didn't want the magic 8-ball in FO2... 'nuff said

Just to avoid confusion on this matter... Old KotOR1 characters: Bastila: Appears in the game in some form regardless of Revan's alignment/gender. T3 doesn't give a holocron, though - he just displays a holo-message from her as R2 does of Luke in RotJ. The holocron of Bastila is found on Korriban, but only if Revan is set to DS (either gender), Carth: Carth is an admiral in the republic fleet if Revan is LS (either gender), and appears as such in a few cutscenes. If Revan is female, he also appears as T3's hologram instead of Bastila, though I've never seen these myself. If Revan is DS, then you don't meet Carth in the cutscenes, and his position as admiral is instead filled by admiral Cede (new character). Mission Vao: No appearances regardless of alignment/gender. Zaalbar: Also absent. Jolee: Also absent. Juhani: Also absent. HK-47: Potential companion in the game. T3: Unavoidable companions in the game, and you even play him before you play the main character. Canderous: Well, you'll hear more about him during the game. To talk about it would be a major spoiler, but be assured that Canderous is not forgotten. Did I miss anyone? About Revan's fate, it is a major point of the game, so you'll definitely hear a lot about Revan. Revealing more would be a major spoiler. Just don't expect Revan to be a playable character. The game is more about discovering what happened to Revan and why he disappeared. What really happened to your new character, the Exile, during the Mandalorian Wars is also a major point.

RPG means you must role-play, as in putting yourself in the role of another (fictional) character and then make decisions on the basis of that character's perceptions and opinions. What decisions or choices do you make in Diablo? Whether to kill the skeletons with a sword or a fireball? Whether to spend the next skill point on fanaticism or zeal, if you're a paladin? Not much RPG in there for me... Diablo is a hack'n slash and a dungeon crawl, and it's good at being that. But it's nothing more than that. As long as it doesn't claim to be more, I don't have a problem. But I don't agree that It's an RPG. Period. Levels and classes do not an RPG make. You can have them in an RPG, but you don't have to, and so their inclusion do not mean that you're playing an RPG. Dragon Wars (very, very ancient game) had levels, but no classes. Still worked great. Same with the Fallout games, btw. Call of Cthulhu (pre d20-crap) had neither levels nor classes (prefession, yes, but they hardly matter at all and certainly weren't classes). Still worked great. One of the best PnP RPGs I know. GURPS has no classes or levels at all (unless you count skill levels). Still a beautiful game design that could easily make for great CRPGs.

Since you speak from obvious disappointment over the state of the game rather than genuine disgust for the people behind it, I think most people here will forgive you. I really would have hated to be in Obsidian's shoes in this matter. They have a publisher and license holder on one side making rediculous demands on the deadline and then won't let you fix the stuff in a patch after the fact, while on the other side they have fans of the original KotOR screaming for their heads over how badly the game was slashed and mutilated. The phrase "between a rock and a hard place" comes readily to mind... For future reference, I would suggest you make sure to express your disappointment first over the game only. Not only does that make your comments valid and difficult for other people to argue easily against, but it also has the benefit of not making lots of people angry with you. Most people here feel the way you do about the sad state of the game, but they do tend to jump to Obsidian's defense, because it really wasn't Obsidian's fault. Heck, I half expect Obsidian to feel the way you and I do, only they can't say so for various reasons, or else they would incur the wrath of LA and not get to do more KotOR games... And if LA has learned from the scandal of K2's development, I would prefer to have Obsidian do K3, since this time they just be allowed to finish the game. I mean, K2 is great until you get about 70% through the game. Then the cuts rear their ugly heads with a vengeance... Thankfully we have Team Gizka, but bear in mind that they have now worked on the restoration project for almost as long as Obsidian did on the entire game... And Obsidian did leave a lot (if not all) of the cut material in there in the PC version, so that it could be extracted later for those of us who wanted to work at it. Without that, the restoration project likely would not have been possible. In my book, that also speaks volumes about how Obsidian feels about the whole matter.