Jediphile

Lolz Doom = RPG Painkiller = RPG Serious Sam = RPG Half-Life = RPG Monkey Island = RPG Grim Fandango = RPG Gabriel Knight = RPG GTA San Andreas = RPG GTA Vice City = RPG Age of Empires = RPG Civilization = RPG Republic = RPG The Sims = RPG Boiling Point = RPG Empire at War = RPG Black & White = RPG Populous = RPG Etc. etc. etc. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nope. Complete lack of true choice in all those. They all have one fixed way in which things must be done and no other and no alternatives. If Diablo 2 was an RPG, then the definition would include all of the above. I don't think so, and that's why I also don't think Diablo 2 is an RPG.

"Beauty never fades" (Animatrix edit) by Junkie XL featuring Saffron.

- I hate when that happens... :D

I'd rather call him a Diablo2-is-an-RPG-apologist - far worse in my book

Those choices are very important though. They impact on how the rest of the game plays out. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Only in the sense of how you kill the baddies... Whatever skills you focus on, you have to face the same enemies with the same powers using the same tactics and in the same places... The only difference remains how you perform euthanasia on them... And you call that a role-playing experience? If so, then I must politely disagree...

Feargus said it is an RPG. Period. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, he's just a big meanie who didn't want the magic 8-ball in FO2... 'nuff said

Just to avoid confusion on this matter... Old KotOR1 characters: Bastila: Appears in the game in some form regardless of Revan's alignment/gender. T3 doesn't give a holocron, though - he just displays a holo-message from her as R2 does of Luke in RotJ. The holocron of Bastila is found on Korriban, but only if Revan is set to DS (either gender), Carth: Carth is an admiral in the republic fleet if Revan is LS (either gender), and appears as such in a few cutscenes. If Revan is female, he also appears as T3's hologram instead of Bastila, though I've never seen these myself. If Revan is DS, then you don't meet Carth in the cutscenes, and his position as admiral is instead filled by admiral Cede (new character). Mission Vao: No appearances regardless of alignment/gender. Zaalbar: Also absent. Jolee: Also absent. Juhani: Also absent. HK-47: Potential companion in the game. T3: Unavoidable companions in the game, and you even play him before you play the main character. Canderous: Well, you'll hear more about him during the game. To talk about it would be a major spoiler, but be assured that Canderous is not forgotten. Did I miss anyone? About Revan's fate, it is a major point of the game, so you'll definitely hear a lot about Revan. Revealing more would be a major spoiler. Just don't expect Revan to be a playable character. The game is more about discovering what happened to Revan and why he disappeared. What really happened to your new character, the Exile, during the Mandalorian Wars is also a major point.

RPG means you must role-play, as in putting yourself in the role of another (fictional) character and then make decisions on the basis of that character's perceptions and opinions. What decisions or choices do you make in Diablo? Whether to kill the skeletons with a sword or a fireball? Whether to spend the next skill point on fanaticism or zeal, if you're a paladin? Not much RPG in there for me... Diablo is a hack'n slash and a dungeon crawl, and it's good at being that. But it's nothing more than that. As long as it doesn't claim to be more, I don't have a problem. But I don't agree that It's an RPG. Period. Levels and classes do not an RPG make. You can have them in an RPG, but you don't have to, and so their inclusion do not mean that you're playing an RPG. Dragon Wars (very, very ancient game) had levels, but no classes. Still worked great. Same with the Fallout games, btw. Call of Cthulhu (pre d20-crap) had neither levels nor classes (prefession, yes, but they hardly matter at all and certainly weren't classes). Still worked great. One of the best PnP RPGs I know. GURPS has no classes or levels at all (unless you count skill levels). Still a beautiful game design that could easily make for great CRPGs.

Since you speak from obvious disappointment over the state of the game rather than genuine disgust for the people behind it, I think most people here will forgive you. I really would have hated to be in Obsidian's shoes in this matter. They have a publisher and license holder on one side making rediculous demands on the deadline and then won't let you fix the stuff in a patch after the fact, while on the other side they have fans of the original KotOR screaming for their heads over how badly the game was slashed and mutilated. The phrase "between a rock and a hard place" comes readily to mind... For future reference, I would suggest you make sure to express your disappointment first over the game only. Not only does that make your comments valid and difficult for other people to argue easily against, but it also has the benefit of not making lots of people angry with you. Most people here feel the way you do about the sad state of the game, but they do tend to jump to Obsidian's defense, because it really wasn't Obsidian's fault. Heck, I half expect Obsidian to feel the way you and I do, only they can't say so for various reasons, or else they would incur the wrath of LA and not get to do more KotOR games... And if LA has learned from the scandal of K2's development, I would prefer to have Obsidian do K3, since this time they just be allowed to finish the game. I mean, K2 is great until you get about 70% through the game. Then the cuts rear their ugly heads with a vengeance... Thankfully we have Team Gizka, but bear in mind that they have now worked on the restoration project for almost as long as Obsidian did on the entire game... And Obsidian did leave a lot (if not all) of the cut material in there in the PC version, so that it could be extracted later for those of us who wanted to work at it. Without that, the restoration project likely would not have been possible. In my book, that also speaks volumes about how Obsidian feels about the whole matter.

But thats not that different from what Kinobi says about Vader. If she went to war as Kae but returned as Kreia, that would make sense from a certain point of view. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If we truly must revive this old, undead topic, then can we at least do it here?

Very happy But why bookmark it?... it is always on top in the General Section <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Because that's not where I look if I need it... Yes, I'm lazy. :">

Didn't I pointed you to this thread already before (for the Malak robe stat stuff)? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, but I forgot the link :"> Bookmarked it now. Happy?

Imposing your own will above that of everyone else is what being Sith is all about, and the force is just a tool to reach your ambitions, no matter what they are. Kreia may want the force to die. A consequence of that is that the Sith will be destroyed. But Sith killing Sith is not unheard of. Indeed, Palpatine was perfectly willing to sacrifice sith to achieve his goals, and Kreia is still using the force to achieve her goals, even if that goal is to destroy the force itself. That she will kill the other sith as a side-effect is immaterial to her. If it needs to be done, then so be it. Can't be much more sith than that. Kreia admits herself that she's sith. But you're right that there's a reason she's grey on the character screen. The reason for that is that she is hiding her true intentions from everyone, especially from the Exile, which is the player. If she is grey, then why is she Darth Traya? I dare say grumpy old Jolee would have a thing or two about Kreia being deemed grey as he is... Careful, or Jolee will talk our ears on the matter... Oh, I definitely agree that she's a wonderful character. Vader was a wonderful character in the original trilogy. Garak is a wonderful character on Star Trek - Deep Space Nine. Gaius Baltar is a wonderful character in the new Galactica show. This does not mean that I admire them as role-models, though. Lots of people hate Kreia, only I'm not one of them. But I do think what you mention here is the reason for both (both why I like Kreia and why many others hate her). Gray or dark, Kreia will make you think. She's a lot like Socrates, who constantly challenged people on their perceptions and forced them to reconsider their opinions. In the same way, Kreia will not let you move on unless she thinks you've truly comtemplated an issue, and she will persist in discussing it, until she's satisfied you've considered all sides to it. She's different from Jolee, however, in that she doesn't want you to think for yourself quite as much as she wants to convince you to agree with her take on things. People felt Socrates was so annoying that they eventually had condemned to death for it. Unsurprisingly many feel the same way about Kreia.

Yes, of course. Loving Feargus is required by law. You do love Feargus, don't you, citizen? :darque:

I know! It's just the perfect robe. I call it the "Pimp my Jedi" robe. Is that wrong? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> VERY wrong!! What does the Nomi Robe do anyway? As I recall, you can't get it unless you mod the game, right?

Sorry - my bad :"> :D

Which it is. As shown in both the DS and LS (Force Field breaking beast get's out of control for example) Onderon battle... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You know, I think it would have been great if instead of doing Dxun and then Onderon, they had done both at simultaneously in the plot and then cut quickly between them. That would have been very cinematic and interesting. So Bao-Dur (or whoever) opens the door to the tomb, and three Sith lords are waiting... Cut to Onderon! Still, then we wouldn't have lovely topics like this one :D Not sure if it would be doable technically, though..

Ahh... movies I don't like that everyone else seems to... Dazed and Confused, The Big Lebowski, 2001: A Spacy Odyssey, Blade Runner, From Dusk Till Dawn. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You don't like The Big Lebowski, 2001, Blade Runner, and From Dusk Till Dawn Sacrilige!! Kill the infidel!! How can you not like The Big Lebowski: I love the scene on the toilet - "Where is it?" - "It's down there somewhere, let me take another look..." And how can anyone not Blade Runner

Hmmm... Maybe the solution is to not make the forced early game so bloody long. I do agree that it can be quite a pain to have to walk through it for the n'th time, especially on Peragus, where there really aren't any LS/DS choices that affect the immeidate plot in any way, unlike Taris, where you can collect bounties, work for the black vulkars, etc.

The journalist was the model played bu Lucy Lawless. I only recall one additional model in the pilot (the one found on the abandoned space station) and he was in this episode as well. It's possible I've missed someone though, it's been a while. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The other one is the guy Adama is trapped with at one point when they're getting equipment from the space station. He eventually succumbs to the heat of the place for some reason after Adama has talked with him and discovered him to be a cylon. You're right about the journalist, though - mea culpa. That means I can only recall six of the twelve models so far...

First of all, I agree with you that the game forces you to choose against Kreia. It was logical to me, but I guess you should have the option to agree with her, even after all she has put you through. However, you say that Kreia is gray. I don't agree with that. Kreia is definitely darksided in my book. Why you may ask, especially when she clearly is opposed to the goals of conquest and power that Nihilus and Sion are. Well, Kreia is still trying to bring about certain conditions - namely the death of the force - regardless of whether people want it or not. So she is trying to excert her desires of what the universe should look like over those of everyone else's. That's not a very kind thing to do. In fact, it's worse than the oppression of the Sith, since the consequences can be devastating. The force is created by life. What is life without the force? No one knows, and it might be best not to find out... And yet Kreia wants the force to die anyway. Just because her goals are not the same as those of other Sith, that doesn't mean she's not evil. She puts her goals above those of everyone else and forces the matter. She's definitely evil. It just doesn't look that way because jedi or sith - the both want the force to live. The force is their tool, after all. The jedi serve the will of the force, and the sith use as a tool that gives them power. But they both agree that it should continue to exist. What would the jedi be without the force? What would the sith be without the force? Kreia wants the force to die, but she doesn't care whether others agree with her or what the consequences will be. That's evil. She's a right Lady Macbeth, the old hag... And yes, Kreia is a great character. I love Sara Kestelman's voice-acting. I mean, just see my sig...

With so many possible outcomes, Obsidian just did the smart thing - they avoided the issue(s) where they could. They couldn't with Bastila, and so she is declared alive, but they try hard not to say one way or the other for the rest of the characters, so that the outcome for the individual player is not "proven wrong" for whatever reason... which is something that tends to rub people the wrong way. Smart of them. Don't make people angry. If there is doubt, don't use the character at all. I think that's a reason why we won't see Atris at all in K3, sadly.

I think that's more an argument for writing a more interesting early game than for having multiple starting points. I find that to be very confusing. I mean, what would the point be? KotOR games have very fixed and linear plots, but it's on that basis the story can become deep and interesting. To build to the climaxes, the story frequently needs to set up a number of things in the early game, which I think would clash with the idea of multiple starting points. That seems to make it a choice between multiple starting points and strong story, and I'll go for the latter every time.

True. I really like Zez-Kai Ell. More so than Kavar. It's too bad they just made him "forget" his take on the matter and just had him join up to be murdered on Dantooine... I like Vash, too, though. She also seemed to be more insightful and prepared to not just blame everybody else: "We take responsibility, Atris, not cast blame." I would have paid real money to see some of the discussions Vash and Zez-Kai Ell had with Vrook... "

As I have said before - never take Kreia at her word. Ever! If she tells you water is wet, make sure to check, before you believe her! When it comes to Revan, Kreia says all sorts of things about how great and flawless Revan was. But consider the source. Revan was Kreia's greatest student, so she's scarcely unbiased on the matter. Indeed, with the council declaring all her students failures and her teachings therefore flawed, she has good reasons for seeing Revan in the most positive light, so she can "declare victory" in spite of anything the masters say. And Revan did learn from Kae: Disciple: "Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing. Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars." As for Kreia's connection to Kae... Well, be careful before you open that can of worms... again - it's an old and touchy subject on these boards that has been discussed massively before and since. But I'm game for it again if others are