Jediphile

I agree. Kreia is dead - leave the corpse alone!

Well the exact quote is... Disciple: "Revan sought out many other teachers to learn certain techniques. I do not recall who Revan's master was... strange. As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that.And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had.And such teachings and their teachers is why I harbor doubts, why I wonder if something is missing from the Jedi code." So no question - Kae trained Revan, when he was a padawan, and then Revan was trained by that master Disciple can't remember. Unless you doubt Disciple's words, that's a fact.

We finally agree on something. Hadn't caught the bit about Sion being on Korriban myself. Interesting... I'll have to check that out sometime. As for Kreia, I've long, long since given up getting any semblance of truth out of her... "

This is an incorrect assumption. D&D for one, is a gamist RPG, that tries to create an interesting game for the players, similarly to (for instance) chess. Trying to find an in-world representation for its rules is somewhat futile, as it is not the point of the game. Some rules will have it, some won't, but in general it is beside the "point" of D&D; D&D simply doesn't prioritize it. Some other systems naturally will. However, it is not the main priority of all RPG systems, even if it is important to your way of playing. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What's a "gamist RPG" anyway? And if it is what it sounds like to me, what RPG wouldn't that be true for? Also, it seems pretty silly to compare an RPG to a simple board game like chess, where the rules are very strict, limited and simple. Those simple rules are there to give you a framework by which to set up your strategy and then see how far it can take you. RPGs aren't like that at all. And no matter how "realistic" or not you may prefer them to be (or not), you really cannot deny that it doesn't impede the gaming experience if you constantly have an incredibly unreaslistic rule glaring right in your face. I mean, what if the cost of buying a sword is lower than the components needed for making it? That's right in the rules, but it's just plain and basic stupidity and needs to be changed, no questions asked. The same goes for a lot of other areas. I really don't care how many thousands of hit points that 37th-level warrior/paladin/whatnot is - if he falls off a mountain for a few miles right onto sharp pointed rocks, then he's dead and should be. Period. Of course, you could then argue that I can impose that ruling as a GM, sure, but in that case, why would I even need those stupid rules in the first place, if I'm going to overrule them anyway? Besides, shouldn't a game by professional game designers take this relatively simple and straightforward situation into account in its rules? As a GM (of D&D and other RPGs) of a decade and a half, I can tell you quite frankly, taht there is nothing worse than having to defend a completely stupid and illogical rule because the game insists on it.

Well, this is post no. 8 in this topic. Anyone game for a guess on how many posts it'll get before the mods close it? My guess is 11...

I'd go for 15 and be the child of Saul Karath. But otherwise 8 is not bad. You could also be a force-sensitive orphan taken in and trained by the order, who turns out to be a mandalorian. I mean, have we seen a mandalorian jedi before?

I'd go for... 5. Both willingly fallen to the dark side to fight the true sith and now must be made to aid you and possibly redeemed, if the republic is to survive.

The problem with being the child of Revan or Malak is that you have had to be born before the Mandalorian Wars, when they were both still jedi of the order. True, we know that Jolee was married and that Nomi had a child and were allowed to stay in the order, but it seems that the order still frowns on jedi who have family or children. This is stated by Kreia as the reason for Arren Kae's exile (though I doubt that's the entire reason myself). Even so, Bastila tells in K1 that ties to family must be severed, once you join the order. So the problem with being the child of Revan or Malak is that they were both described as ideal and iconic jedi right up until the point when they defied the council and left to fight in the war. If you "rewrite" their history by giving them children, then you mess with the idea of "corruption and fall of the perfect jedi"-motif that formed the basis of KotOR1. Messing with the past of established canon is always a bad idea - just look at Star Trek... Besides, if the purpose of being the child of Revan or Malak is simply to establish a motive for the character to be powerful, then I wouldn't want it anyway. Revan was power - the greatest and most powerful jedi of his time. Exile was not a great jedi, but he could deny the will of the force - a truly unique power. So we've already played the "chosen one" jedi twice in two games. Please no more. Revan is and should be the most powerful jedi, even in K3. The new pc should just be a jedi who "facilitates" Revan and Exile and let them end up fulfilling their destinies. So I still think that if you're going to be the child of any established character in KotOR, then you should be the son or daughter of Saul Karath - secretly taken from Telos before it was bombed by your father and then raised on Coruscant to be hated universally, as the sins of the father were visited on the child. The jedi order took pity on you, though, and then discovered you were force sensitive. So will you be DS and take revenge against Revan and Carth for your father's fate, or will are you disgusted by your father...

I think you meant to say Not in stead of Now. Am I Right? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Of course you are

naw, it's an interesting idea i guess, but there are many people who want a new playable character, as opposed to exile and/or revan again. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The idea also has the problem of KotOR2 ending with the Exile going off to find Revan... Yes, I agree with that. I really think that in the "split party" bit of KotOR2, when the Exile and two companions go to Onderon to settle the royal coup and three other companions go to Freedon Nadd's tomb on Dxun, they should have cut between the two, so that it became more cinematic. Now sure it would work over the course of an entire game, though, or even how to implement it. Yeah, from me too.

Of course not. It had Dennis Hopper in it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, that doesn't make it good per se... nor was it. But still, you can't beat lines like: "Don't just stand there - kill something!" :D

And nudity. From Scarlet Johanssen. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How about Scartlet Johanssen killing loads of people with buckets of blood in the nude! Disclaimer: I don't think Scarlet Johanssen is sexy. Emmanuelle B

I've been wondering that too, since it does seem to be a reference to Kreia. I don't see how it really can be if Kreia and Kae are two separate people, if we accept that Kreia was Revan's first master. So the way I see it is that there are two possibilities: 1. The master Disciple refers to is someone totally unknown to us - it's not Zhar, Dorak, Kae and/or Kreia, or any other that we've heard of having ever taught Revan. Why Disciple would not remember that is very odd indeed, though. 2. It is Kreia/Kae, only she has somehow "split" herself into two people in Disciple's mind. Kae has history with the jedi order - there's no denying that - so instead of trying to remove her entire existence from the Disciple's mind, she allows the early history of her time to be known to him as that of Master Kae, but leaves him with the impression that the later history was another teacher - Kreia - which she then expels from his mind, so that she can hide her association with Revan for her Kreia identity as well as the dark teachings Revan learned from her, and which the council felt had led Revan to his fall, and which they exiled her for. As you can probably guess, I favor the latter...

Hear, hear - FO3 ftw... :ph34r:

What I want to know is, if we have HK-47 in KotOR1 and HK-50s in KotOR2 (with HK-51s in the cut content), then where the heck is HK-48 and HK-49?!?

Sure. It's right here. I participated heavily in it myself. It's closed now, but referring to it might be enlightening. I think Kreia is Kae, but I would concur with DeathScepter that there is no concrete proof either way. The nay-sayers have not been able to put up an argument against Kreia being Kae that couldn't be questioned, at least not as far as I could tell. Those who do do believe that Kreia is Kae, like myself, have pointed to evidence that supports the theory, but still cannot be called proof. There are a bit too many similarities between Kreia and Kae for me to ignore. Could be coincidence, but as M.r Garak would put it on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - "I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences..." :D

Hey, you forgot to explain R, Q, and P. That might be confusing to new readers (and even to those geezers among us, who forget...)

Gothic 1 was limited to a single prison colony. There was enough space to explore, but the area was definitely very finite. Gothic 2 seems larger, though, but I haven't played it much. I like Gothic for its plots and free-roaming, but I don't like the character building and the combat system... Lots of good ideas, though. I think it's more a question of having something interesting to discover in them. Mercenary II: Damocles (jeez, that was long ago...) was great, but boy was it big and empty... IIRC, one planet had several million of "pyramid" structures on it, only they were all empty except for a select few... Agreed. And there should be few but very different vehicles. For example, some could be pretty fast, but only run safely on real roads (which are all pretty much gone by the time Fallout is set in), while others can be slower off-roaders. A car-wars thing could be good. If they looked a bit at Mad Max 2, the Road Warrior for inspiration, it would be great.

Lots of OT remarks... I see a pale lockdown rising...

Terminator - yes Governator - no, thanks :D

No, you sidestep the point. His training of his wife was hidden, but his marriage was well known. He was not exiled for having a relationship. That's the on point precedent. The aside is he didn't even get exiled for training her behind the Order's collective back after they refused to. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Or even for that leading to her falling to the dark side, which he could also have prevented (by killing her in their duel, which he won), and that she then went on to kill other jedi. Those lives are thus on Jolee's conscience in the sense that they could have prevented, if he had killed his wife, when she turned against him.

Her name is Sara Kestelman

He trained her in secret after the council turned down his request to do so. I'll just post the whole thing, so people can see for themselves... Sorry about the length Jolee: "My wife's name was Nayama. She was the Ukatis enforcer who shot me out of the sky, if you remember.No I'm not senile, dammit! Not yet, anyway. Hmmm... well at least I don't think so. At any rate, I'll tell the story the way I want to.Bah. You got ears that work, don't you? I was a smuggler, way way back. I got shot down once over Ukatis. THAT story, yes.My wife had plenty to do with the war. Upon meeting her, I knew right away that she was strong in the Force. That's why she was able to shoot me down.Nayama was a marvel of a woman. Fiery, determined, smart... she dragged me to the capital and foiled three of my attempts to escape prison. Oh, and that body...Well... yes, that. Needless to say I eventually won her over. That was after I kidnapped her upon being broken out of the Ukatis prison, mind you. But uh, that's another story entirely.At any rate, I wanted to train her in the Jedi way. The Council refused my request, naturally. I was still a Padawan at the time.Nayama was intrigued by the idea of becoming a Jedi. She liked the idea of power too much, perhaps, but I certainly didn't see that at the time.I believed in her and trained her in secret. I ignored her willful nature... I loved her too much to see fault in her.And she loved me, too. I know she did. At the time, our love was a shared bliss... better than anything I had known before or since.Exar Kun is what happened. Nayama was inspired by Exar's promises of a new Golden Age. She wanted to join him.She came to me, pleading with me to throw aside what she called the decrepit trappings of the Jedi... to join her in Exar's war.I pleaded with her to reconsider, to think about all that she was throwing away... to think about what she would become.She would have none of it. Finally, in frustration, she attacked me. She drew her lightsaber and attempted to strike me down.It was a scene being repeated everywhere throughout the galaxy. Pupil against master. In my case... it was a long and terrible battle, but I defeated her.No... no. I had her at my mercy, disarmed and defenseless. She looked up at me and she knew... she knew I couldn't do it.Was I? Sometimes I convince myself that I couldn't have done otherwise... that I couldn't have seen that she had truly fallen to the dark side. But, yes, I was a fool.And I let her go. To my shame, she went on to kill many Jedi during the war until she, herself, was slain in the final battle.I grieved for her death, inevitable as it was, even as the Jedi Council put me on trial for my actions once the war was over.I had trained Nayama against their wishes. I had failed to kill her when I had the chance, and she went on to kill others.It was a travesty, of course. I told you that even the Jedi were capable of great injustices, didn't I?But I deserved to be tried. They found me innocent.Even though I... deserved every punishment and more... they let me go. Mitigating circumstances, they said. I deserved compassion, they said.That... that was when the Jedi left me. That was when they failed me.They may have been able to forgive me. I... could never forgive myself."

I mentioned it in a lengthy post before. It's here for anyone who's interested...

The council's decision not to fight in the Mandalorian Wars was not due to being a cloistered order, but rather because they feared what fighting such a war could mean for the order's members. Note that Bastila describes this in K1 and tells Carth that they would have aided in time - Revan just never gave the order the chance, but instead forced the issue and so split the order. Even Kreia knows that the Mandalorians taught the jedi through battle, and Revan used that to corrupt those jedi who had followed him. That is precisely the sort of outcome the order feared.