Volourn

10 points? Nah. It's only half damage. Meaning if you normally do 8 dmaage; you'd do 4. That means, if you have a two handed sword that does 1d10 damage and you are specialized in that; you are just as well off with the two handed sword as with a club or mace. In 3E, it's 5/blunt I believe or is 10/blunt. 5/blunt is nothing to worry about, 10/blunt would be a good reason to stick to blunt though.

"Ah, but we don

"I find this "orginal product = bad sales" argument kinda strange. If it really is so why has Bioware moved to making only orginal products?" More control, no having to pay for licenses, and so on. And, 500k sales is not 'bad sales'. "It was just that you mention that they have 3 games, but "bet" there's likely another one out there. Well duh, Bioware themselves stated it in the link themselves." Where's the beef? I admitted this was strictly conjecture on my part based on the fact that BIO's had 'secret' projects already. Afterall, even before a porject si even semi announced there's likely to have been some work done on it. "Given the response when asked about it shortly after acquiring the Unreal Engine, if I had to predict if it would be a FPS or not I'd choose FPS." And, your prediction is fair, and acceptable. It's also completely different than what the article tries to say is 100% factual when it isn't. "So? I didn't even know it was a D&D game until I played it. I just heard it was a good game. Given the sales of Baldur's Gate compared to other D&D games, I think it appealed to more than just the D&D crowd." BG has sold 2 million copies in nearing 10 years of existence. D&D has millions of players. I think its a safe bet that the majority of BG fans have also played pnp D&D fans. Of cours,e there are those liek yourself who didn't play D&D. That's fine. That doesn't mean the typical BG player isn't a D&D player. "Jade Empire was also a game that was actually marketted. It was also on a gaming console, which is a much more proven seller than a PC is for gaming (hence the giant shift of PC developers now making console games)." BG was marketed. It also came out in a time where people weren't crying about the presumed 'detah' of PC gaming. "Then, after a few multimillion sellers, they release a game that, despite having a near flawless reputation for quality and infinite more name recognition and marketting power (ala Microsoft), they only exceed their first game by 300k?" SS has sold 200k units over 10 year. JE has sold 500k units in 6 months. There is no comparison. Ouch for SS.

"Do any of the mods even look at your reports anymore? You report someone in practically any thread you post in. And 'misquoting someone else's post' is against forum policy? That's a new one to me." They do, actually. Eldar even asked it to eb cooled in public. Heh. Actually, 99% of my 'reports' are on one guy- Ender. I haven't reported too many others. And, yes, misquoting someone on purpose (by editing what theyw rote while pretending its an actual quote) is against board policy. I used to do it myself then someone complained, and I got chastized for it so meh. "The link you specify specifically states that they have 4 development teams." Aye. I;m not following here. Is this in reference to me stating that BIo likely has another secret project theya ren't mentioning? Like I said, it's really top secret. "As for the FPS RPG, Bioware's own response was "It's inevitable."" Yes. Inevitable. That doesn't neccessarily mean that this particualr game is a fps rpg. BIO has not confirmed that. In fact, BIO has made it a point to point out that the URE is very capable of powering a 3rd person view rpg. Of course, the URE game *could* be 1st person; but it doesn't have to be.

"You said my statements were false, and lated called the mythical. Saying that I made false statements is the same thing as calling me a liar. Back-pedalling is not a skill in TOMBS, btw." I asked for proof. That's not saying they were false. And, no, I didn't call you a liar. I said you lacked prove of the existence of BIO quotes. Yet, you said I had no proof that BIO was happy with JE's sales even though I gave proof in the think in the very first post of this thread that they are happy with JE's sales, and they even give their reasoning for their happiness - JE is an original IP, and therefore happy that they managed to seell 500k+ units of the game. "Baldur's Gate wasn't even Baldur's Gate until Baldur's Gate got released. I don't know how much of a draw games like BG and NWN are for being a D&D world. I don't play D&D but I really liked Baldur's Gate, it's sequel, and Neverwinter Nights. Are you saying that Baldur's Gate sold as much as it did because it was in an "established" (i.e. cult favourite) game setting? If that's the case, then I don't think you give Bioware enough credit then." D&D has upwards of 10 million players playing the pnp version. That's an already built in possible audience for D&D games. Some people, like myself, will buy almost anything with the D&D logo. Heck, that's why I bought BG. Before BG, I didn't know who the heck BIO were. They weren't even my radar as far as games go. And, it's not about giving BIo credit because it doesn't chnage the quality of BG. You also seem to forget that BIO's first game - SS - sold 200k units. While not flashly, that was decent for their first game. JE being their newest game has the history of BIO behind it which is why it easily outsold SS; but to assume that JE would sell as much as BG is silly because JE's only built in audience are BIO fans who do not exist in the same numbers as the D&D license or the SW license. Unlike BG which I bought b/c of the D&D name, my interest in JE wa sbecause of BIO. However, as 'big' as BIO is they don't have as large a fan base as D&D does. This is why expecting JE to sell as much as BG or NWN doesn't work logically. And, wow. You liked NWN?

"Didn't Feargus also say PS:T sold well?" He said it sold well over time. I believe it's around 200-300k. Maybe a little less, maybe a little more. IIRC Don't quote me on that though.

"Classic baiting. Reported." LOL As you wish, but there is no baiting go on. "I am claiming that everyone is thread is lying, but I can't possibly conceive that Bioware would be anything but sincere in saying the game is a commercial success despite poor sales. If they say the game did well, then surely it did! There is no possible agenda, and surely Bioware isn't put in a situation where they have no choice but to stand behind their product. Game over! Man, I come up with the best arguements in the whole wide world!" Asking for proof is not the same thing as calling someone a liar. You should know the difference. That said, misquoting someone's post on purpose to make it seem theyw rote something is against forum policy. therefore, you are reported.

"You're the one pretending the argument is about "bombing", Volourn. I said sales were "mediocre" and Bio would be "disappointed" but you've flip-flopped from 500k is a one step from a mega-super-duper-OMG-it's-nearly-as-good-as-the-GTA-series hit to irrelevant rubbish about it not bombing. Does anyone seriously think Bio -- a 220-staff heavyweight of independant studios -- would be happy with JE being their lowest selling game since SS?" Nonsense. More than a few people have stated that JE bombed. And, oh, read the thread title. It (sarcastingly) reads that JE bombed so, once again, what is the topic about again? And, oh, BIo surely doesn't sound dissapointed in JE's sales in said article that is linked, and no one has yet shown any proof that BIO is actaully dissapointed in JE's sales nor any quote of how many units BIO epxected JE to sell. From the artcile, BIO is HAPPY about the 500k units sold. Game over. edit (this is back and forth quick, lol): "You're calling me a liar. You can quote Bioware, but apparently I can't. That makes you a hypocrite. I atleast attempted to find proof for my claim by looking up a cached version of Bioware's website." I'm not calling you a liar. Not taking someone's word at face value is NOT claling them a liar; it's called not giving them the benefit of the doubt. Just like you don't trust me 'cause I'm bias; I don't trust you. And, I have quoted BIO. I linked the article. "Again, this proves nothing. Would Bioware say their game was a failure? No one really calls their products failures why they are still trying to market it. Logic truly escapes Volourn, but this is nothing new. I don't know why I bother." That's nice. You get amd because you think i called you a liar (which I didn't); but then you go ahead and call the BIO rep a liar. Uhuh. Bottom line is that BIO accoridng to that rep in the article are HAPPY about the 500k sales. Period. This is undisputable. "Halo 2 made over $125 million in a single day. Yet selling 500k copies in six months is supposed to be impressive?" Nice. JE is a failure because it didn't sell as much as Halo 2. Wonder never cease. I think it should be obvious that no one in their right mind epxected Halo 2 type numbers from JE. LMAO Nor was I (or anyone) caomapring JE to Halo2. JE isn't even in the same league. "Again, Jags came back with actual figures. Given the AVERAGE cost of production of a game today is $5-10 million, and that Jade Empire was a premiere title, $5-10 million is a fair estimate. The budget may have been even higher." And? "I've never once said the game bombed, but the game is in no way a commercial success." Proof please.

"You've gone from a fanboi to a hyprocrite. Bioware's actual statements on their website don't count as proof, except when they do. and you demand proof from me but offer up none of your own." What actual statement? You've given no actual statement. Just your word about some mythical statement. Am I supposed to take YOUR word for it? And, I have given 'proof' or as much 'proof' as anyone has. 1. 500k sales is more sales than most games get. 2. The article linked shows a BIO rep being HAPPY about said amount of sales. 3. JE has sold 500k in 6 monthswhile BIO's other big games have sold over a million and their either based on more than gaming platofrm (KOTOR and MDK2) and/or are based on existing licenses (KOTOR-NWN-BG). Once again,a BIO rep states that BIO is satisifed with JE's ales due to it being a 'new original IP' therefore by that statement it is apparant that BIO was NOT epxecting KOTOR-NWN-BG type numbers. That shows it didn't drastically underpeform expecations. And, it most certainly didn't financially bomb. So, once again, proof please. Also proof my hypocrisy on this issue. edit: "Sadly, there isn't a recent enough archive snap-shot of the Bioware store, but Bioware's own website said that if you didn't preorder Jade Empire, then the Limited Edition would sell out. " So, no proof then right? Not to mention, even if said quote exist, it's obvious hype. Pre order now to get the 'sepcial' Collectors Edition! Don't miss out by waiting too long! Sounds like hype to me; not a true expectation. It probably worke don you too as you rushed out nearly being run over by a car trying to preorder JE so you didn't miss out on the uber duber Collector's Edition. R00fles! Tsk, tsk.

"I doubt many people here believed JE tanked or "bombed" so we shouldn't hide behind semantics. The real concern seems to be whether it was a commercial success, or not." Actually, more than a few of people have explicitly stated that they believe JE literally bombed. That's not semantics. Besdies, at 500k sold it was obviously a commercial success. The only things we don't know for sure is what its profit (or loss) margin, and how many units it was expected to sell. That is all. For now. "Why wouldn't they? They've had great sellers before. I doubt they went into the development of Jade Empire thinking they only wanted to release a smaller title. MDK 2 would fit that bill." JE is not BG-NWN-KOTOR for obvious reasons. Figure out the differences on your own. Thankyou for playing. And, once again, according to said article, BIO is happy with JE's sales so it seems to be whatever their expectations were JE surely didn't 'bomb'. Game over. "Enlighten us." You are intelligent, Alanshu. You should be able to figure out what 'financial bomb' means. I can guarnatee you it does not neccessarily mean 'performed below expectations'. Period.

My proof is in the article. BIO states quite clearly there that they are *happy* with the amount of sales JE got. If the game have BOMBED (do epople even know what that means?); do you think they'd be 'happy' about it? No, I think not. The proof is that most games don't even come close to 500k sales. "Bioware said on their website that the Limited Editions were expected to sell out on preorders alone." Proof. And, yes, JE is still selling at $50 at my local EB, and that was just last month I had noticed it. Then again, it's not like I spend my time spying on it so I might have dropped a little lower. Then again, my EB rarely drops its prices all that much no matter the game as even one like TOEE or KOTOR has really dropped its price. Still waiting on proof that BIO is dissapointed in JE's sales to counteract what they state in the article. Also, on that note, even if one could find proof that BIO is 'dissapointed'; it still does not prove that JE BOMBED. Do people even know what 'FINANCIAL BOMB' means? I think not - at least what one can gather from this thread.

You don't need blunt weapons against skeles.

"I love how no one has responded to my point that the limited edition preorder copies are still sitting on retail shelves. Bioware expected a huge hit, and it got moderate success at best. The game clearly underperformed for expectations." Proof please. You have no idea what kind of sales margin BIO was expecting. I seriosuly doubt BIO expected BG-NWN-KOTOR type numbers. Show me real proof. Until you do, you've done nothing but make things up. "If however, JE cost $5-10million to make, the current industry standard for a AAA title, then it's a flop, and no amount of Volo going on about how 500 000 units sold is in no way a flop will make it otherwise." You are assuming BIO paid for everything. You seem to forget they had a partner in making JE. BIO did not 100% finance JE alone. "Given that the game got price cuts early, and is already down to $20 a pop, those figures are pretty generous." The game is $50+ still here.

Meh. Despite the fact I poked a little bit of fun at your i's; your posts ar every much readable. Youd' have to be blind not to be able to read. There. I said something semi nice about My buddy Roshie.

Do a search on the JE baords for my examples. That is all. This thread wa snever intended to attest to the (lack of) quality for JE; just the quetsion of whether it finanically bombed or not. There are tons of reviews - inclduing mine - in this mess of a board to read. The bottom line is compared to most RPG npcs, JE's npcs are not shallow.

All of them.

"And you can't say the characters weren't extremely two-deminsional." Yes, I can. They are deeper than most RPG npcs. Only PST, BG2, some npcs from Arcanum, from Ultima, and some FF npcs rival JE's npcs. WOWSERS!

Yes. He banned me because I gave him very little choice. LOL Let's just say Mr. Sawyer isn't my biggest fan. He has that in common with Mr. Gaider. Hehehe. <>

YES! Someone FINALLY understands that truism! You are my NEW favorite internet dweeb! :D

"First oiif all 10 millioin is juisit specuiilatioin. If JE soiild 500,000 thats groiss sales oif 25 millioin. Noiw develoipers accoirding toi the article get 7 percent oif the groiss sales. Noiw lets say becauise bioiwiare self puiblished they goiti 30 percent oifi the sales, which is extremely generoiuis coimpared toi 7. This means that they oinly goiit 8 millioin and thuis incuirred a loiss oifi 2 millioin based oin YOIIUIR specuilatioin oif 10 millioin. Noiw if yoiui are moiire realistic then yoiui will realize that bioi getting 30 percent oifi the shelf price oif the game is as muich oif a fantasy as duiingeoins and dragoins. Noiw Im noiti saying that the game loist moiiney foir bioi, juisit that it clearly boimibed." Youa re assuming that BIO paid 100% of the costs. You seem to forget that MS was involved. Most games do not cost 10 mil to make. " Noiw Im noiti saying that the game loist moiiney foir bioi, juisit that it clearly boimibed." If it didn't lose money; it did not bomb. Period. If it had bombed, MS would not want a sequel. Period. When a game (or anything) bombs that means it completely flopped. Whether or not JE made a lot of money, very little, or lost some is soemthing that wecna't really discuss at this time since we don't have all the facts. However, the fact that JE sold 500k+ copies proves without a doubt JE is not a bomb. Do you even know what 'a bomb' is in terms of games and other goods? It surely doesn't seem like it.

1. HOTU 2. SOU 3. NWN 55. RPGMaker 1000. Arcanum 1 million. Morrowind

Both games sucked. I cna't believe MDK2 sold a million copies! Lots of dumb customers!

"Anyway, even a loiti oifi the moiisit hardcoiire black isle fanboiys think that heart oif winter was garbage and lioinheart was hoirrible, soi yoiuir disappoiiintment with a few oif bioiwiares proiduicts is noit a sign oifi noit being a fanboiy." Meh. You liked HOW. And, I thought LH was underrated. "The game can sell more copies than Halo 2, Half-Life 2, Super Mario 64, and Ocarina of Time put together for all I care, that doesn't change that fact that it sucks. I for one bought the LE the day after it was released. I was ecstatic for the first few hours. But then the novelty wore off, and I saw it as it really was: a shallow, unoriginal piece of garpage full of generic cardboard people and some of the most idiotic dialouge since Episode 1." Quality is not an issue in this thread. We are disucssing whether or not JE was a financial bomb. For the record, however, JE is better than every BIO game except for BG2 and NWN:TTP. It is also betteer than 99.9% of RPGs overall - only FO series and some Ultimas are also better than it. "1. My spelling is goiioid, buiit my keyboiaird is buisited." Exuses. "2. I never claimed they were proiioif, juiist EVIDENCE. Please pick uip a dictioiinary and find oiuit the difference between the meanings oifi the twoi woirds." Evidence, proof, it means nothing. It's all hearsay based on wishful thinking; not facts. "3. Jade empire is the first noini licensed rpg... and the first noiin licensed title they made in a loinig time. Noiw I doiinit want toi get intoi a semantical arguiment oiver this, soii lets leave it at that." Irrelevant. It's not BIO's first non licensed game. Period. RPG or not is ireelevant. "4. Whether 500k coipies is goioidi oiri noiti depends oini the coists oifi the title. We can estimate these coisits based oiin the amoiuint oif marketing foiir the title as well as the size oif the team and the lenght oif develoiipment." OMG! That's what I've been saying, and I doubt JE cost more than 10 mil to make. Period. 10 mil is an amount reserved for the super main stream games. JE was never one of those. NEVER. "5. Bioiware is knoiwn toii be a hype machine... They proimise a loiti foiir their games buiit doii noiti deliver, and like in the case oifi nwn oiuitright lie regarding the games roiileplaying and coinitent. They are liars and shoiuild noiti be truisited. Yoiiui have toi be a famboiiy toi believe what bioiware says." BIO does hype; but they do not lie. Period.

None of your horribly mispelled (even by my standards) i'facts' is proof. Not one. "Bioware is goiiing toi be very reluictant toi admit that their first noin licensed game boimbed." If you enter a conversation, at least know basic facts. Let's look at some of your misconceptions. 1. JE is NOT BIO's first non licensed title. Better look at SS for that. 2. JE did not take 5 years to make. That's a mythical myth. 3. JE did not bomb. When a game sells 500k copies,a nd is almost gaurnateed to have a sequel it is not a bomb. 4. BIO does not lie. Period. Don't mix up hype with actual facts. 5. You have (nor do I) have any idea how much it cost BIO tod evlop JE so its hard to detemrine how many copies needed to sell for them to make money. Bottom line here is that JE sold 500k copies. Until I see REAL proof that it financially bombed; opinions found in this thread are just that. Please quote me the cost to develop JE, and the profit that JE made then maybe you have a shot to prove that. Until then, 500k copies sold is very good whether its a console game or not. Game over. P.S. "The game deserves toi be woirshipped." No games do. None. Zilch. Zero.

My response is that I have to see real proof that selling 500k copies of a game can be considered a financial failure. I shall continue to await this proof. And, wait. And, wait. And, wait. And, wait. And, wait.