Volourn

Ahh.. A thread dedicated to bigotry and hatred. Anyways, some of it can be funny in tongue in cheek; but the problem is some people actually believe this 'declaration' as fact which just makes it sad.

The game wasn't a waste. A good game that could abeen better; but wasn't.

"see your point. His views at the onset of the labor breakdown weren't that great. But at the same point, don't you think these players who basically broke the bank thanks to him be showing a little more gratitude. From barely 400 grand a year to 1.8 mil in about a decade? That's crafty. I'm not a huge fan of the guy, but he did make the NHLPA a juggernaut. Ted Saskin as new president? He seems like a featherweight compared to someone with a huge set of brass balls like Goodenow. I think that buy replacing the head the players think maybe they have someone they can keep a closer reign on..." The bottom line is Goodenow didn't deliver like he promised. Just like when a player doesn't perform, or a coach/gm fails to deliver; they get canned/traded as soon as possible. That's what happened to Goodenow. He said no way no how the players would have to deal with a cap, and here we are a year later and the players have to deal with a cap in spite of missing an entire year. Goodenow failed therefore he is canned. Simple as that. "Linden really did get the short end of the stick in that deal, but you're right, look at how it turned out." Linden is just a crybaby who got upset because he lost his captaincy to the greatest captain of all time. And, oh, most Canucks at the time were pro Mess. Only Linden fanboys would support Linden's temper tantrum. I like Linden myself as he's a solid player but if a team has to choose between him and Mess as captain it's a very easy choice. It's just too bad that Mess' years in Vancouver weren't the best. I know that Naslund at least was happy to have the hcance to play with the Moose as he says he learned a lot from 11.

Why he did very good. He got ****ty players, and crippled retirees more money and screwed the actual great players people pay to see. GREAT LOGIC BY ALL! Hopefully now, The Great Expansion Thief Tyrant will join him in retirement; but that's doubtful. P.S. I was just about to share this news. LOL You jerk!

As does everyone. The fact you try to pretend you are above it is all the proof I need.

That's ok. Whenever I ask for proof no proof is given anyways so the point is moot.

The proof is in the pudding as they say. "Clearly finances aren't a concern, otherwise they wouldn't have held out to begin with. A small price to pay for getting a bigger paycheque." Funny. If they're holding out because they want more money it's illogical as you are losing money anyways. Go figure.

"Players shouldn't do stupid stuff like sign long term deals if they don't think that that dollar value is going to remain appropriate. Honour the contract, since whatever team you play for is going to have to." It's not neccesary about money. Perhaps, the team is treating the player like crap, or the player isn't gettinga long with coaches. Afterall, if you can't get along with your boss the business relationship is doomed to failure which is why either the coach or player needs to be removed from the situation. "You liken Pro Sports to any other job so quickly. If a contractor decides to just not work despite having a contract, he gets sued. All sorts of legal ramifications come in. In the layman's job market, contractors don't just "hold out." So, if the NHL is just like any other business, why are their employees allowed to hold out?" There are ramifications to holding out. A. You get paid NOTHING. B. YOu ar elikely not to get a long termd eal with any other team ever. C. Your contract is owned by the team for the specified years so your source of income is nullifed. ie. You are effedtively screwed employmen wise in your chosen field for x years. So, to say there is no ramifications for holding out is plain old fashion silliness. And, oh, yet again while the NHL is 'like any other business' as with everything it isn't all black and white. Yet again, you accuse me of seeing in black and white but it seems you are the one with that problem. Go figure. "Not always the case." 99.9% of the time. That's close enough to always for me.

"They also had no problems offering him a no trade clause." Yeah, years ago. It's obvious they didn't plan ahead. Plus, who says they offred it? More likely, he asked/demanded it. "the trade would have likely been done, because at the same time the team needs to do what's best for the team." No team loyalty shown which is why teams don't deserve a player's loyalty 'cause as soon as the team can get someone better they dump the other one in the proverbial trash. I understand the philosphy as the team must look out for their best interest which is why I think it's stupid to give players flak when they do the exact same thing through trade demands, contratc negotitiations or in extreme situations 'holding out'.

"but at the fact that apparently the team thinks he's a crap player because they want to trade him." The bottom line is the SD Padres don't want him on their team. Afterall, they've tried to trade him 3 different times in the last few years. Yeah, they view him highly. Haha.

"Except he only has 9 home runs. The number should be more towards 20, except for the fact that he was injured and has been struggling since." Hmm.. My bad. Still, 20+ homers is pretty good. The fact the team wants to trade him due to the injury shows a lack of loyalty on their aprt. Not surprising. "despite Nevin being team MVP three years in a row at one point" 3 years ago means nothing to a disloyal team. "And my bad about misreading your "any job" line." That's ok. My mistake with the homers cancels it out. "Yes, because the Oilers traded Gretzky because they thought he was a crap player" Completely different situation. And, yet, I'm oftne accused of seeing things in black and white. It's obvious Nevin was trying to unload Nevin cause he's an underperforming high priced player. I seriously doubt if the trade didn't go through, Gretzky's playtime on the Oilers would be cut as punishment. P.S. Pople ar ehappy that crappy players will make more money than they did before.

"It's not *just* about the money just like it isn't in any job." You better rea dthis line more closely. The statement clearly states that just like any other job it's not *just* about the money. It's also about the boss, the city, and the environment. This is true in sports, McDonalds, Microsoft, or any other job. The line doesn't even come close to implying that 'hockey isn't like any other other job' like you imply. "Odd, just extrapolating his home runs would not get you 25, more like 15. 20 with a stretch." How do you figure this? He has 11 homeruns in 71 games. He'd have 22 in 142 games with another 20 games left. That seems to me that's more than 15 homeruns, and 20 is no stretch over 162 games. This is simple math. Tsk, tsk. "When the team is in a slump, coaches always mix stuff up. It's just like Hockey, Baseball, whatever." "Well, then you're just speculating, which is hardly evidence at all. His limited playing time is also a factor when perhaps he's still not fully 100% after coming of the DL." This both cna be true espicially the first. Of course, it's too much of a coincidence for this issue to be rbought up in the same article disucssing the fact he refused a trade. It's like 'he refused a trade and now his playing time is going to be more limited for x other reason'. It seems like an exuse to save face because the player had the GALL to say no. "Furthermore, if it was crap, then why is he so happy about his decision to stay?" The article explains clearly why he wants to say in SD - his family had made a home there. See, he's making a career sacrifice for his family. Afterall, consideirng that SD has tried to tade him 3 times since both sides agreed to the No Trade Clause it's obvious they don't want him and think he's a crap player. "Because if it was just for the love of the game, a salary cap would not piss them off" Entertainment industry, gaming industry don't technically have salary caps for the most part yet they do fine, and the people who work in those industries do it because they love it. George Lucas, afterall, makes tons of money yet I doubt even those who dislike him would honestly think he 'only' does it for the money witha straight face. "And stop with the analogies to everyday businesses. Mining Unions don't have employees that make 7 figures on average. And in your own words, "it isn't in any job" so stop comparing them." A. Don't tell me what to do. B. I didn't say 'it isn't in any ob' in the way you twisted it to mean so keep being silly. C. I don't care how much mine union employees make. Stop being so greedy and money oriented. It's not just about money. I can tell youa re the one who is greedy as all you think about is the price tag. Go figure. "You make gross analogies like players being treated like cattle, when the working situation they endure is much better than 99.9% of the other jobs in the cities they play in. You don't hear players or anyone bemoaning that they play in the NHL and how life is so tough for a pro-hockey player. Oh woe is them." You lie. Players have bemoan at times. Did you just hear JR awhile ago? Sure sounded like 'bemoaning' to me. And, they are treated like cattle. High priced cattle; but cattle nontheless. Afterall, they are amde to perfrom (by choice), and as soon as a team or the fans are done using them they are thrown in the trash heap. If they injured they are thrown in the trash heap. They do one thing that is dissaproved of they are harassed and called evil. If they'd are ask for more money, they are called selfish when the owners and espicially the fans are the most selfish group ever in this world. Face it, fans are pathetic, and aren't human. P.S. I'm glad people are happy that the crappiest players' salaries have risen. Good job, people.

"You've already said that it isn't "any job."" Eh? Where do you get this? "You sign a contract, as THE TROLL stated, for a duration and money. If it was specifically for a place to work" I know this. The point of this disucssion is to state my DISAGREEMENT with the way pro sports use trades to transfer players like cattle. Nowhere did I say that trades were illegal or against NHL rules. Tsk, tsk. "Nevin, 34, is batting .263 (72-for-279) with nine home runs, 11 doubles and 47 RBIs in 71 games" Those are pretty decent numbers. Over 162 games that's 100+ RBI, around 25 homeruns and doubles. His batting average isn't the best; but certianly isn't the worse. "(3-17 and 0-5 with runners in scoring position" If you are as much a fan of baseball as you are of hockey; you'd know all players - even the best ones - go through slumps, and the only way to really get your way out fo one is to keep at it. Sitting on the bench helps no one. On top of that, those numbers you posted while crappy indeed are such a miniscule number over a long season to be almost irrelevant. "with a pair of hot hands in Xavier Nady and Mark Sweeney. Both players are hitting the ball much more consistently than Nevin" Nady is batting .272, 11HRs, 33RBIs in 74 games. He has an advantage in avergae but Nevin has him crushed RBI wise. Mark Sweeney is batting .304 with 7 homers and 18RBI in 80 games. While Sweeney easily wins the average battles amonst the 3; Nevin wins yet again production wise. So, 'hot hand' wuse did you mena like they batted .300 in the last 5 games? Big whoop. On top of that, both the players you list are outfielders, Nevin is a first baseman. LMAO I say it's no coincidence that this 'more limited playing time' comes just after he refused to be traded. It's nice you have blind faith in San Diego; but when it smells like poo it likely is poo. "In fact, they could have even been smart about it and made sure that ticket prices are also capped, so as to keep fans happy as well as make sure the owners aren't making fat coin." It's not up to the players to decide how much a ticket cost nor should it be. They're paid to play hockey not be businessmen. The union's job is to get the best deal they can for the PLAYERS not the FANS. It'll be like the Mining Union negotiating on behalf of the mine's customers. R00fles!

Why are you trolling an otherwise civil discussion? You have been reported.

"there was not a single bad word" Proof. Your exaggeration at bets is proof that you ty[e nonsense. No matter the issue there are always two sides. Afterall, someone writes 'Hitler is evil' and there's bound to be someone to defend him. No, I guess you haven't bene paying attention to baseball. There was a guy who just invoked a no trade clause and is has been slammed by fans and now is being punished by his teams by threats of limiting his playing time. The guy in question is Nevin of SD who nexed a deal with Baltimore through a limited no trade clause. So, uhuh, your theory is blown up again. Go figure. "If it was purely a love of the game thing, there's plenty of alternative places to play hockey than just the NHL. If it's also just for the love of the game, I doubt they'd hold out to begin with." Oh please. You know full why players play in the NHL and not elsehwere. It's the friggin' NHL. You don't play in the NHL you are likely not gonna be considered much in hockey espicially in North Amerika. For prfoessional hockey players, the NHL is the Apex of long years of hard work at honing their skills so nice try. It's not *just* about the money just like it isn't in any job. "Often time a trade occurs because a player is not fitting into the system of a particular team." As far as I'm concerned if a team and player relationshiip isn't working out boths dies should come to a fair agreement of some sort of release - just like any job between employer and employee. The only reason trades are so prevelant and acceptable in sports is 'cause it's pretty much always existed, hightens the fan excitement, and teams don't want to release a player for 'nothing' in case it come sback to bite them except in the most hopeless cases. "Just like Hockey Players aren't traded to the NFL. You're still playing in the NHL when you get traded." But, you sign a contract to play for the Calgary Flames not the Edmonton Oilers. "And it still doesn't change the fact that if the player feels the trade is unfair, he doesn't have to play in the NHL anymore." Aye. And, i propose if JE Sawyer or Dave Gaider think a trad eis unfair they can just not work in the game industry anymore. R00fles!

I think it's because they love the game. Yes, they like the money; but very few if any players start playing hockey for money. They all start because they love the game. Not one thing you said changes the fact that trades suck for players. Period. And, just because relocation is similar but different doens't change the fact that tradings cuks. Sure, relocation sucks too; but then again, you are still working for the same company. It's not like you start work for McDonalds and the next year they trade you to Kentucky Fried Chicken. Then again, mayhaps because Sawyer signed with Obsidian in California; they should trade him to Bioware for Gaider. Uhuh.

"Many jobs involve relocations, NOT just professoinal sports." Job relocation is completely different than trades in sports. Like I said, trading in sports is akin to two game companies making trades of their employees. And, yes, players are aware of this; but it's not like they have much of a choice in the matter. Being a victim of a trade is a negative a player has no choice to accept unless they are of the elite who can demand no trade clauses in their contract. of course, whenever a player exerices a no trade clause people bash them for it. Go figure.

"Therefore trading the player is not breaking the contract in "spirit" or in any other sense." Wrong. When a team is 'courting' a player they are interested in they usually try to emphasize how great the team is, the management is, the coaches are, the city is so yeah when a player signs with a club where they are signing DOES matter to them. And, yes, trades are a part of sports. Always have been - doens't mean they should be. Sure, it's interesting for us fans; but that doesn't make it fair for the players. Trades are the reason why players SHOULDN'T have loyalty to teams or fans as fans and teams have NO loyalty to players and trades as well as support of trades proves this. Game over. Next. "Yashin held out twice." Ok. My mistake.

Too many UNEEDED words much like all our posts here. :D

"How is trading a player treating them like crap?" Cool. Maybe Obsidian can trade JE Sawyer to Bioware for Dave Gaider. Horray for your logic! Players accept it because they pretty much have no choice if they want to play hockey. I say if you sign a player for 5 years you should be stuck with them for 5 years much like a player in an ideal world cna't just walk out. "And you can't fire someone in the NHL." Yes you can. Just ebcause you are forced to pay them doesn't mean you can't fire them. And, while you are paying them they can't go elsewhere either. "long term contract that has a history of holding out and not honouring the contract." From my recollection, he did it ocne, and owners are more likely not to honour a contract than players. Afterall, they pretty much break the spirit of the contratc every time they trade someone. When a player signs with a team they sign with a team not with some other team. Trade may be cool and interesting; but they aren't fair.

"Why would a team sign a guy to a long term contract, when that guy had one of the most [in]famous hold outs in hocky????" Good for him. If it's ok for teams to treat players like trash by trading them on a whim or canning their butts whenever they feel like it; players should have the right not to work for a team that isn't satisfying their needs.

"Welcome to the future." A future that even with the new age terrorism that is still much better than the past.

Mike Keenan is the best coach ever. And, yes, I'm happily biased and with good reason.

"Two words: Jacques Martin."{ Two words: Overrated coach.

I don't count retards when determining if it's possible to die in a game. Just sayin'.