Azmodiuz

hahahahah... NO DEAL!

The wizard spells can be mechanically better, but damage wise can be uninspiring.

we, we see alot of locks at 6-7-8-9 mechanics. to cast many of the spells on scrolls we find, we need the level of the spell in Lore. so like 1-9 survival is good at any level, but the checks I've seen were 4+ (I think) Athletics too was 4+

If you get Lore 10, there's potentially 34 Skill Points saved by being Wizard and taking any background that gives +2 Lore. Thirty. Four. Even if you do the same as a Cipher, that's still 10 Skill Points saved, potentially pushing any other skill up to 4 (1+2+3+4). Because of that one +1 to Lore that Wizards get over Ciphers. So yeah, I'd say that the +1 matters, depending on what you want to do. It's hard to know for sure, but I can tell you that the theoretical maximum in any skill is 15, but that forces you to focus on that skill exclusively and get +4 from Class and Background. how is all this going to work in an expansion where we hit level 20 or something ?? The system is flawed, heavily. I naturally have concerns.

Do we not only need lore 10 (or any skill, for that matter), or am I creating that maximum myself ? I do not fully understand where I got that idea, either because is the number 10 and it seems like a decent max, or something else. Anyone know how high skills go to, or should go to, i.e no need for maximum past x level... I know the highest lock i've seen was level 10, but only in one of the beta builds.

don't forget fighters regenerate endurance steadily in combat too.

ultimately, dexterity needs a boost too, it needs to "lessen" recovery penalties from armor. That should be a very good place to start. so say your dexterity is giving 20%, and your in heavy gear -50% recovery.. it would be 40% recovery. the rest stays the same. From there, I would then make Dexterity also add +1 accuracy/dex small addition, but also making sense. Now, at 20 dex, you can recovery 10% faster and have +10 accuracy. This makes sense. Its even pretty balanced. don't forget resolve and constitution need balancing too, they suck even more.

lol, or an arbalest, seen those too.

Doesn't a cipher get focus to cast something ? And to get focus they need to hit something, right ? Wizards do not need to build up their focus..they just cast... Combat only ever lasts 2-3 rounds usually on hard, and on normal and easy, when I tried the otherday, most combat was ended within one shot/hit from everyone on my team. Well placed spells did very much. Wouldn't be room to build much focus. thats one thing about this game, in the old IE games and such, combat was much longer.

if your not a barbarian, i wouldn't dump any points into con..but if you are I would recommend it.

I tried both, for the same reason. I couldn't tell what I wanted either. I then tried the other classes.

nearly every fight I've seen only lasted 2-3 "rounds" attacking extra made little difference. Killing things nearly instantly cause it gets hit by 6 members of the team at once, makes much bigger difference. Most the members who had extra attacks, were cause they finished killing something and now have nothing to do... extra attacks are only so useful as they are being used. Might, always useful. Directly adds more damage. Maybe you only get one shot ever, in combat with the musket or whatever... might as well do alot of damage. To make best use of dexterity, you really have to be qeueing up your actions and miss no chance to act IMO.

Wait, so Kickstarter backers get something extra not just the pre-order stuff ? Damn, I missed the kickstarter because I literally didn't hear about it until Torment was announced. Shame. Will there be a way for us to get the kickstarter only bonus items ?

Your options are better then what I proposed, and I believe could serve multiple purposes. For example, you could get hints about a character by evaluating him/her, like a bit more info if you are very perceptive, maybe some skill checks here and there. If I could say this, I would make the LoS thing, not exactly like DoS did it, but barely visible, and for anything thats a radius, I would make is kind of shimmer, make it actually affect the gamma or something in those area's , but not too much, just enough that the player still has to be careful and keeps his/her eyes widened while playing. If you have the time nad effort to steal and loot, and build up skills and a character for it, why shouldn't you be rewarded with a great economy? It could very easily double the play time of the entire game, to only come out abit richer?! many of us would pick pocket just for the fun of it at earlier levels. Another thing about thieving thats so great, is it helps the rpelay value !

I had to go and close that petition, but I declared victory ! Which is great, and makes me happy, is going to help a lot when playing the game. It might be such a small mechanic, but I feel it was worth it ! As you wish...

in torment I always maxed out charisma dex wisdom and intelligence never cared for consitution or strength. My first playthourgh though I did strength and con. Didnn't know anything about the game yet, pleasant surprise

Thats just awesome. We aleady have a portrait pack for them !! +1

hmmm thank you all so much.. I will now give dnd another chance and try this 5ED which I might never have had done... now off to Amazon...

The moon godlike was the only useful one. Other then how ugly it looks or makes me feel when using it, if it didn't have an actually useful ability we'd never use it! but all the god-likes are a bit lackluster. These guys are more then just marginally different, yet they are 99.9999% the same in any given situation in everyday life. There should be different things to them other then those racial abilities. They should be the only race that gets something else... like maybe BOTH racials.... parent type and their god-like racials. Then you can keep the helmet, and the stupid abilities they have. There's so many abilities in this game I find completely waste of scripting time. Most of the racials are exactly that to me.

More like quadruple post... you know you can edit right ? Edit: forgot the "M" in "more" lol me too !! Also, we have this system for sneaking, that can be used to great effect ! Its like the system for it is soo close. It surely is not going to become like it is in TES games where you can be sneaking and casting magic fireballs on people and the enemies are like "who's there? did I hear something?" meanwhile the fireball is blow-up in their face. in D:OS they use LoS (Line of Sight) if we did the same to some extend, made it SHOW the line of sight for actually selected rogues in SNEAK mode, that would help, as a start ! THEN -> we can slowly add a mechanic to interact with an NPC when they are selected. Forget thieving in stores, it was broken. If you need that, you might as well just use scripted interaction. Also, with this approach we can make loot a small thing, that you can get from people without having to kill them !! only further encouraging role-playing ! So - that fixes alto of the broken parts. If developers put insanely godly items on someone to pickpocket, that's neglect, NOT broken/abusive mechanic. TL:DR Add LoS for selected rogues, make sneaking individually possible, add scripted interactions for stores, add thieving option to selected actions on NPCs. Success can literally be very hard if they see you all the time, accuracy can be used vs reflex if they do not see you.

how does that make sense ?? Thats overpowered... whats the catch ?

I have used low con tank builds with success, they work fine you just have to rest slightly more frequently as the tank's health wears down. Deflection and DR are the main source of mitigation anyway. Con just adds a bit of padding. There are a few enemies that get through deflection/DR more frequently that extra stam helps with, but I just use beetle shell on those fights or some extra healing. I think Con is just the worst attribute overall. not if you choose to play a barbarian... hell, don't even need deflection after you use 18+ con

I think dexterity is fine, as it is shown here on this thread. It for once does what its supposed to do. If you throw everything into min/max damage thats not bad, its just one possible way to make a character. Its not how I will play my characters, but its one way to play them no matter what. The question is, does this affect chanting now ?

So, the good ol' days of interrupting spell casters is not as useful as it used to be. This explains so much....

Adam, what are you talking about? The recovery timer does not stop while moving. The recovery timer used to be paused while moving, but it was REMOVED in v333 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/69057-333-quick-impressions-thread/page-2?do=findComment&comment=1527777 It also does jack sh1t to prevent kiting. Dont be such a pompous jerk. ..and reported for name calling, I feel like we're babysitting sometimes on this forum. Anyways, i agree with Sensuke that it raises concerns. I will be one of the guys who asks sensuke how to mod the game to remove the slowing of recovery. I am ALWAYS moving. People do not fight stationary, its silly. I also suspect the enemy does not face recovery issues. The problem becomes that, the developpers made the game in a way, that we choose to undo some of the things they add, so we can enjoy the game more. Its shame on them, not just us, for having to do this.