Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Walking Part 2


  • Please log in to reply
73 replies to this topic

#41
gogocactus

gogocactus

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 209 posts
  • Steam:gogocactus
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

What Lephys said


Off-topic: oh my god, Lephys, you are back! I missed your presence (and your puns) on these forums. I'm glad to see you could resist your excitement in anticipation of PoE2 no longer and had to share it with us on the forums =P.

That said: go(go)(gadget)~~~ walk-toggle!

Edited by gogocactus, 10 September 2017 - 01:10 PM.


#42
Lephys

Lephys

    Punsmith of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 7161 posts
  • Location:The Punforge
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

I very clearly presumed you had the same stance as me, pro walking toggle. I find the point I am trying to make very articulate so sorry. As I mentioned earlier combat stances have a very minor use in signalling the beginning and end of a fight. The current request in this thread is for Obsidian to add the toggle alongside everything else in the game. It has been their decision to (so far) not spend any money or time on this feature. This suggest to some degree that they do not see it as worthy of their resources. Everything else in the game they have already decided is worthy of them. Unless we are trying to request that they put the funds for one feature towards a walking toggle instead, the mention of other features add nothing as their existance does not give Obsidian the resources for the toggle or the popularity to make it worth adding.

 
My apologies. It is I who misunderstood you. I now know what you mean. You have a good point, but I think it is for us to discuss the merits of ideas, and for Obsidian to decide their value and priority. Whether or not they are going to decide to somehow get walking into the game should not have any bearing upon whether or not we ask that it be in there if at all possible (reasonably, obviously -- we don't want them to remove a chapter of the story so that resources can be re-allocated for walking animations).
 
But, yes, in a way, we're asking them to reprioritize, if that is what needs to reasonably happen. In Pillars 1, we all asked for individual stealth. Before the game was actually coded and built, it was planned. So, A, B, and C were in the plan, none of which were individual stealth. Would we have liked for them to have removed something else and put Individual Stealth into the plan? Yes.
 
Walking is a naturally lower priority than individual stealth, as it does not have as significant of an impact. Yet the point remains.
 

Well that's a bad example, as there is a great reason why you need an "at ease" stance and it's gameplay based.  Simply put, it's a indicator to show you are locked in / out of combat. 
Example:  A fight goes poorly, your team is getting beat down, you decide to take the better part of valor.  How do you know when you have run far enough away that you escaped combat?  Easy: Your characters switch to their "at ease" stance.


It's actually quite an apt example. The out-of-combat stance isn't needed. There are numerous other ways in which to quickly and easily indicate that combat is over: music, icons, HUD-change, etc. Honestly, it's easier to indicate that without a visual character-model change than it is to indicate whether or not your character is moving faster/slower than normal without a visual character model/animation change.

 

Let's say your main character gets slowed by 15%. How easy is it to tell that you happen to be moving 15% slower across the battlefield when he's just doing his joggy animation, but gliding across the screen slightly less speedily? Same goes for a speed boost.

 

If you were to simply look at the person and see "Oh, they're running" or "Oh, they're blatantly walking," you'd very quickly know what's going on.

 

As for the whole "People obviously want to move faster than slower," slow-er than what, exactly? Do they want to move infinitely fast? Or is there a certain amount of speed with which they want to move? Ultimately, that question all comes down to one thing: In any given part of a game like this, does a player want to instantly skip out of there, or does a player want to move at a finite speed through the area? Barring "Oh, I just want to go back to town now," I would assume that a reasonable player wants to move at a finite amount of speed through an area. Do they want to move 1 pixel per hour? Of course not. Do they want to move at the speed of sound, though? Of course not. It has to be somewhere in-between. So "faster" doesn't really mean anything. And how slowly would you expect physically fit characters to walk? They're not sneaking. They're just walking. People walk for exercise, for crying out loud.

 

Let's look at it one more way. When you see, say, a Lord of the Rings film, and the party is traveling through the woods, are they constantly sprinting at full-speed? Nope. And when they walk for 20 seconds, then crazy stuff happens, do you stop and think "Man... that took way too long. They really should've been moving a wee bit faster through there, maybe a light jog, so that it only took them TEN seconds to get to the fork in the road where they were beset by orcs or some dialogue took place"? Most likely not.

 

The rate at which a player becomes bored watching his characters move through an area has a lot more to do with the pacing of the area and dialogue exposition, etc., than it does with how fast the characters are traveling. And instantly intuitive visual cues of "Oh, my characters are hiking through this tough terrain" or "Oh, my characters are charging into battle like there's no tomorrow" would be plentily valuable, objectively so. Going back to what Baltic was getting at... am I to decide it's relatively MORE important than any of the other stuff they have planned? Of course not. That's not for me to decide. But, is it a pointless request/topic for discussion? Hardly. Nor was my example a bad one for its goal.

 

 

Oh, and @gogocactus: Thanks. :). I missed you guys, too. I finally have computer time on a regular basis once more, so I figured I'd drop in on some high-quality discussification. :)


Edited by Lephys, 12 September 2017 - 11:31 AM.

  • Silent Winter, TheisEjsing and gogocactus like this

#43
Lephys

Lephys

    Punsmith of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 7161 posts
  • Location:The Punforge
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

For what it's worth, in regard to this discussion, apparently characters' idle animation sets made the importance cut. So...

 

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE that. But I don't know how anyone could say, with a straight face, "We'd love to put walking-vs-running into the game, but we just don't have the time or resources. We're too busy making sure your character can idly stand in a sassy fashion, as opposed to some other fashion." :)

 

(Sorry... I'm kind of playing catch-up here on a lot of the details for this game).


  • gogocactus likes this

#44
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2089 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Well idle animations for non-companions will add a lot of character to towns and cities in the game. That said I don't disagree that they aren't all that different. All I can say is that for me, personally, a walk toggle wouldn't get any use at all whilst idle animations will be somewhat appreciated. Had Obsidian not included idle animations I wouldn't have cared all that much however.


  • Karkarov, Baltic and Wormerine like this

#45
algroth

algroth

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 579 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Yeah, I reckon that one of the arguments towards prioritizing unique idle animations over a walk toggle is that few will appreciate the latter whereas all will see the former (as unique idle stances probably won't be linked to a toggle). The unique idle animations are part of the general aesthetic overhaul whereas the walk toggle is a very niche-specific optional feature.


Edited by algroth, 12 September 2017 - 02:50 PM.

  • Karkarov, JerekKruger, Baltic and 1 other like this

#46
Varana

Varana

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 464 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

But then, they're also nowhere near comparable in terms of effort and resources. It's not like they'd need to add walking animations - those are already in.


  • Lephys likes this

#47
daven

daven

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 113 posts

If big head mode is in, this should be.

 

I imagine less people will have used big head mode. What absolutele nonsense including that bollocks.


  • Varana likes this

#48
smjjames

smjjames

    (7) Enchanter

  • Members
  • 889 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

If big head mode is in, this should be.

 

I imagine less people will have used big head mode. What absolutele nonsense including that bollocks.

 

Because people want to laugh?



#49
Varana

Varana

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 464 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

How many people had activated BHM for the whole game because they wanted to laugh all the way through the hours and days of playing, and how many switched it on, had a good laugh, and switched it off again? ;)


  • Karkarov and daven like this

#50
Lephys

Lephys

    Punsmith of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 7161 posts
  • Location:The Punforge
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

To the "Yeah but a walk toggle wouldn't be used that much, while idle animations would see a lot of use" rebuttals:

 

I agree, actually. However, if you read a little more into the arguments of myself and several others, we don't actually want a walk toggle. It just would've been logistically silly to make an entirely separate thread about put walking in the game, but technically not as a toggle.

 

If you think about it, everyone basically walks everywhere. Doesn't mean we walk slowly. I used to work at Target, and running in the store was simply not allowed. However, I'd sometimes have to make it to one of those "Customer needs assistance" buttons within like... 15 seconds or something, so I'd walk like a man with a purpose. Probably twice the speed of a normal walk. Maybe if you're weak or tired, and/or you're traversing difficult slopes or terrain, you'd probably walk more slowly. It's more muscle effort to move you the same distance. It's all about pacing.

 

Anywho... I'm not saying "calculate the slope of all the terrain and granularly adjust the characters' movement speeds by tiny percentages accordingly!". It's not about that. And it's not about something that is a super tiny technicality (the "everyone walks instead of running" thing). It's just a simple fact. There's no reason for the idle animations other than "Well, everyone doesn't just stand around like statues. Their knees would be locked and they'd pass out!". It makes things feel more natural and alive, and is pervasive throughout a game such as this (every character you see who stands idly is going to propagate the effects of idle animations versus a lack of them).

 

Likewise, there's just as much reason to have natural-feeling movement in the game. Why is everyone jogging/running everywhere? I don't care about the realism of the weight of their gear, and the statistical probability with which people would do that in a real dimension. I just care that it intuitively feels weird. Not only that, but myself and others have mentioned before in this thread that it makes things harder to tell when someone's suddenly moving with a purpose. If you're already running, then how contrasting is a sprint? "Hey guys! Things just got dangerous! Continue to run because we're already doing it!". I likened it to shouting all the time, then becoming the angriest you've ever been. How do you convey the shift in your anger if there's no baseline?

 

Not only that, but as Varana said, NPCs already walk around, so there's already a set of walking animations in existence (in other words, no huge resource cost to the devs to implement this). Even old, not-very-realistic JRPGs used to use walking animations to show that your party was trekking about, and just have them move at however many pixels-per-second they so felt you should move. So, it wasn't a realistic speed, but at least they were not just sprinting all over the place. Then, one day, when we got 3D games, someone just made a cool, energetic full-body running animation, and all dev teams the world over decided "Wow! We should just do this all the time and show off how coolishly we can animate a 3D character model!" And now everyone just still does it, for no reason. All characters run, everywhere, all the time. There are even games in which characters move ABSURDLY SLOWLY, but are still using running animations.

 

Now, when we have plentily fantastic graphical technology to animate an actual walking animation that's not at some absurdly slow "I'm an old man just trying to make my 1-week-long trek to the neighbor's house" pace, no one thinks to even try it? Why not? Wouldn't it be great if your characters could actually run when they had reasons to? "Oh crap, things just got urgent, didn't they? They're BOOKING it!" If you didn't care about that effect, then why care about idle animations, or the effects of the grass blowing in the wind, or people smoking little pipes or making gestures whilst delivering dialog? Either it's important stuff, or it isn't.

 

I won't say "no one" wants a simply walk toggle purely for realism's sake, but that's certainly not all that's being asked for here, or argued in favor of, for that matter. I would ask that you consider all of that before deciding what's pointless. I'm sorry for the wall o' text, but either the matter's important enough for you to consider the full discussion before formulating a conclusion, or it isn't and there's not much point in responding, to be honest. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying you SHOULD care. But you should IF you're going to take part in a topical discussion.

 

So, if people still think it's pointless, I'd appreciate some "Here's what you didn't consider," or "here's why it's STILL pointless" positations, rather than "yeah but it's a silly thing and wouldn't affect much."


  • Lord_Mord, Baltic, algroth and 1 other like this

#51
Lord_Mord

Lord_Mord

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 423 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

 

Unless it was a walking simulator then you should have started from implementing and developing core game mechanics which would make the base for the rest of the experience ;-P

 

Actually it kinda was. It was an experimental stop motion game. We had great expectations, but it was really hard to just get our main character to walk. In the end all we had was a small level, a guy walking around and some awesome interactions with a real rabbit skull, a puppet cupboard (with a little man inside) and a creepy girl in the woods that did a kind of experssionistic dance. Unfortunately we never got to the point where it all started to make sense. Wait ... I just remembered, that the opening sequence is on vimeo:



And two pictures:

Screenshot.jpg

Hexe.jpg

 

Edit: He had this cool idle animation, where he stepped nervously from one leg to another. I think that kind of stuff is important. It gives characters life. Just think of Eder and his smoking animation.


Edited by Lord_Mord, 14 September 2017 - 01:34 AM.

  • gogocactus and Wormerine like this

#52
Karkarov

Karkarov

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2670 posts
  • PSN Portable ID:Karkarov
  • Xbox Gamertag:Karkarov
  • Steam:Karkarov
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Watcher
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

How many people had activated BHM for the whole game because they wanted to laugh all the way through the hours and days of playing, and how many switched it on, had a good laugh, and switched it off again? ;)

Also again there is the gameplay use, sometimes combat gets really hectic, and as stupid as it sounds you can use big head mode to get a better view of who is where in some chaotic fights.  I know this because I have done it before.



#53
Varana

Varana

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 464 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Well, I can think of a few very specialised gameplay uses for walking, as well - like more precision when positioning your party just beyond the edges of an enemy's visibility range, or when circumnavigating complex trap layouts in a tight corridor: you've got better chances to quickly hit the pause button before the character does something stupid.


  • Lephys and Lord_Mord like this

#54
Baltic

Baltic

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 98 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Well, I can think of a few very specialised gameplay uses for walking, as well - like more precision when positioning your party just beyond the edges of an enemy's visibility range, or when circumnavigating complex trap layouts in a tight corridor: you've got better chances to quickly hit the pause button before the character does something stupid.


Whilst I'm in favour of a walking toggle, scouting mode is what you'd use in these cases. It would be practically essential in the case of staying out of an enemy's visibility range.
  • Lephys likes this

#55
oddrheia

oddrheia

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 33 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

So,  Divinity Original Sin 2 was properly released yesterday, and the party there can walk as well as run (and sneak, of course).

 

Just wanted to point out there is another  development studio out  there (that makes amazing RPGs, btw) who do not consider the feature low priority or a waste of resources. :no:

 

Now, if you excuse me, I am going to go and get myself thoroughly lost in the world of Rivellon! :yes:


Edited by oddrheia, 15 September 2017 - 01:46 AM.

  • daven likes this

#56
daven

daven

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 113 posts

So,  Divinity Original Sin 2 was properly released yesterday, and the party there can walk as well as run (and sneak, of course).

 

Just wanted to point out there is another  development studio out  there (that makes amazing RPGs, btw) who do not consider the feature low priority or a waste of resources. :no:

 

Now, if you excuse me, I am going to go and get myself thoroughly lost in the world of Rivellon! :yes:

You've pushed me one step closer to purchasing it!

 

I haven't played the first but this looks pretty good, not sure if it's worth waiting a few weeks for the obligatory patch.



#57
Wormerine

Wormerine

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 570 posts
  • Location:Poznan
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

So,  Divinity Original Sin 2 was properly released yesterday, and the party there can walk as well as run (and sneak, of course).

 

Just wanted to point out there is another  development studio out  there (that makes amazing RPGs, btw) who do not consider the feature low priority or a waste of resources. :no:

 

Now, if you excuse me, I am going to go and get myself thoroughly lost in the world of Rivellon! :yes:

Cool. Have fun.


  • JerekKruger likes this

#58
anameforobsidian

anameforobsidian

    (8) Warlock

  • Members
  • 1085 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

If big head mode is in, this should be.

 

I imagine less people will have used big head mode. What absolutele nonsense including that bollocks.

 

Big head mode is something they stumbled on by accident when testing character models.  Keep in mind I tepidly support both, but it's not like they put a ton of extra work in to put it in.



#59
4ward

4ward

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 300 posts
  • Deadfire Silver Backer

 

Well, I can think of a few very specialised gameplay uses for walking, as well - like more precision when positioning your party just beyond the edges of an enemy's visibility range, or when circumnavigating complex trap layouts in a tight corridor: you've got better chances to quickly hit the pause button before the character does something stupid.


Whilst I'm in favour of a walking toggle, scouting mode is what you'd use in these cases. It would be practically essential in the case of staying out of an enemy's visibility range.

 

 

that‘s a good point which kind of makes me curious why Obsidian decided to go with a running speed and a sneaking speed and abandoned walking speed. Couldn‘t Obsidian have left walking as in BG2 as default and then when the player goes into stealth mode just added the sneaking animation but left the walking speed? So that the player has the same default speed no matter if he walkes or is in stealth like it was in BG2? And then added running as a special talent tied to endurance?



#60
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3726 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Sneaking = Stealth
Walking = Default
Sprinting = Per Encounter Use

Would've been my preference, but too late now.

Sprinting "Per Encounter" to position, or get a decreased chance of getting hit by an AoO (Attack of Opportunity).

Some form of walking toggle would be nice now that running/jogging has been already established :)


  • daven likes this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users