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Update #24: Less than 30 Hours to go! Life and Death, and Audio CD Soundtrack!


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#21
Monte Carlo

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I'm just worried it's looking a bit too complicated and over-designed.
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#22
DiabolicallyRandom

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I don't really understand how the souls / dying / no-health-potions or healing thing works.

Genuinely, I'm not trolling, I'm just properly baffled. It's a bit high-falutin' for my little brain. Can somebody help me a bit in terms of how it pans out gameplay wise?

Is stamina verging towards a DA:O style spam mechanic to avoid perma-death?

TBH, as I posted on the other thread, the XP mechanics, healing, slow-levelling and comments about fighting and wilderness encounters are making me a bit leery.

You know i'm a big supporter of you guys but this has got me a bit... baffled.

This is less and less what I thought the game mechanics would entail.

Quest/goal experience is a hugh let-down for me. No traditional healing -- I'm with Monte on this, so I guess I'm failing my intelligence check on that point.

Completely takes the wind out of my sails. With less than 30 hours to go, I have a lot of re-evaluating to do with regard to enjoyment factor versus pledge level.

I so much wanted this to be more in line with the older I.E. games.

Developer comments would be helpful.


Restating all of the above for emphasis. The stamina/health thing has me a bit disconcerted - so say I am playing, and I get knocked out, and while knocked out, they finish off my health. What then? Game over? I literally start from scratch?

#23
Rabain

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It has the potential to make all combat a particularly scary prospect. Some might consider that a bad thing, I guess it will depend how balanced it is. If party members are constantly on the floor doing nothing it could be a decidedly frustrating system.

On another note it also implies that Priests will be much more combat focused than playing the role of healer as is usually traditional.

On another side note it seems to me if the KS gets to 3.3m at the 24hr mark we will definetly get the Big City 2 because we have seen 100k per 24hrs pretty consistenly, add in Paypal and we got 3.5m for sure.

#24
The Mist Devil

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Thanks for all the latest updates and the Streams. I've upped my pledge to encourage you further. Keep going and if all of us up our pledge just a little, we'll get Big City 2 and maybe reach the mysterious CATS at 4 million.

#25
J.E. Sawyer

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I didnt get it either. So if you get to 0 stamina and pass out, then what?

Then you're knocked out/out of the fight. It's not a whole lot different from being knocked out but not killed in D&D. When combat ends or when another character restores some of your Stamina, you're back up. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's more work.
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#26
Monte Carlo

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Sawyer says that priests will be able to concentrate more on party buffs --- something I associate traditionally with the D&D Bard. Too early to call though.

#27
rjshae

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Nice. As I mentioned in another thread, I really like those Stamina/Health ideas. And the fact that curative magic is a rarity is even better. It was exactly what I was asking for :)

I suspect that will also mean the encounters will require more careful balancing. If the party is in over their head in expert mode then the game is basically over. That's usually not a good thing.

#28
LadyCrimson

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I'm just worried it's looking a bit too complicated and over-designed.

Sometimes things sound complicated when described in words, and turn out to be simple during execution.

edit: nvm, dev. posted while I was typing.

Edited by LadyCrimson, 15 October 2012 - 12:02 PM.


#29
Monte Carlo

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I didnt get it either. So if you get to 0 stamina and pass out, then what?

Then you're knocked out/out of the fight. It's not a whole lot different from being knocked out but not killed in D&D. When combat ends or when another character restores some of your Stamina, you're back up. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's more work.


Josh, can you address some of the other issues please?

#30
Merin

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Nice update.

It seems to me less that some of the people are having problem with the game mechanics and more with the game mechanics not being 3E D&D. *shrug* That could be my own biases showing but...

Many different games have used many different mechanics. Here's one way to think of Stamina and Health -
Halo.

Stamina is your shield. It gets chewed up in a fight, but afterwards you can take a moment and it recovers.
If you stamina is wiped out and you keep getting hit, then your health starts going down. Your health won't recover right after a fight with a breather.

It's just another way of trying to show damage in combat, not have characters need to sleep for five days after a fight where they get hurt to recover naturally, but not include healing potions and magical cures.

Seriously, I've never been a fan of cure potions and endless healing. One of the things I loved about 4E - a Healing Potion did you no good if you didn't have any healing surges left. :)

I must say I truly like this attempt to be different than D&D. I'll have to see it in practice to know if I like the mechanic overall in execution, but for now I like the design goals it represents.

---

If you wanted not exactly IE but 2nd or 3rd ED D&D, you really should reconsider your pledge - you aren't going to get D&D. If you are okay with that, this update shouldn't upset you.

#31
Rabain

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Then you're knocked out/out of the fight. It's not a whole lot different from being knocked out but not killed in D&D. When combat ends or when another character restores some of your Stamina, you're back up. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's more work.


I think this harkens to the issue of enemy AI, they just ignore the unconcious? Could seem pretty odd that someone who was beating the crap out of you sees you fall down and is ready to kill you, then ignores you and runs off to fight someone else.

#32
Monte Carlo

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That could be my own biases showing but...


You're damn right there.

#33
LadyCrimson

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Stamina is your shield. It gets chewed up in a fight, but afterwards you can take a moment and it recovers.
If you stamina is wiped out and you keep getting hit, then your health starts going down. Your health won't recover right after a fight with a breather.

This was my thought as well, except that unlike in some games, once the shield/stamina is down, you can't keep on doing any actions until it recovers (via time or spell).

#34
shibby191

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I like the Stamina/Health mechanic as described. It reminds me a lot of Borderlands 1 (maybe 2, haven't gotten it yet) where you had a Shield and Health. When you took damage it came off your shield first and when your shield ran out then you'd take health damage directly. Your shield would recover quickly when you hid or after a fight but your health wouldn't recover at all unless you took stims or got healed up. The difference here is when your Stamina runs out you may be knocked out. It's a simple system really, nothing complicated about it. And different enough too to stand out.

Edited by shibby191, 15 October 2012 - 12:07 PM.


#35
kahoshi

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I imagine the talk about expert mode death is like Diablo 3 hardcore mode, if your character dies then he/she is dead forever and you need to reroll.

#36
norolim

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I imagine it will work sth like this: if a character's Stamina drops to 0 he/she becomes incapacitated. As I explained here foes will usually stop atacking an unconcious opponent and engage somebody else. Therefore, an unconcious character can be helped during or after the battle. If however their Health reaches 0, they die in Expert mode and can't be brought back to life and are maimed in Normal Mode. Now, a maimed character I believe cannot be revived with magic, as such magic is very rare. Such a character will probably only recover after a rest and possibly some healing kits will have to be used. What Josh says is a very general idea, but if done right it can be a great realistic system.

#37
J.E. Sawyer

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I have to say I honestly did not expect this to be confusing to anyone. Here's an example. Bob the Fighter has 32 Stamina and 30 Health. He gets hit by a number of attacks that subtract 25 Stamina and 5 health (leaving him with 8 Stamina and 25 Health). He is a fighter, so he chooses to use one of his abilities to regenerate Stamina. He does this and quickly bounces from 8 Stamina to 15. Unfortunately, he gets smacked again for 20 Stamina and 4 Health. He is knocked out (effectively 0 Stamina) and at 21 Health. The guys who knocked him out move to other targets.

Francine the priest casts restore stamina on Bob when combat is over. He recovers to full Stamina quickly, but is still at 21 Health. Depending on how the next few fights go, they will either have to retreat to rest or find a safe resting spot up ahead.
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#38
Piccolo

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Nice update. :) I really like how health/death is being handled.

#39
DiabolicallyRandom

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I didnt get it either. So if you get to 0 stamina and pass out, then what?

Then you're knocked out/out of the fight. It's not a whole lot different from being knocked out but not killed in D&D. When combat ends or when another character restores some of your Stamina, you're back up. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's more work.


And what of "expert" mode death (or normal with it enabled)? Is it permanent, ala "hardcore" mode in other games such as D3? Or can you simply reload a prior savegame?

#40
J.E. Sawyer

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I think this harkens to the issue of enemy AI, they just ignore the unconcious? Could seem pretty odd that someone who was beating the crap out of you sees you fall down and is ready to kill you, then ignores you and runs off to fight someone else.

Why would you spend time dealing with a non-threat while there are other targets still threatening you? Even in standard D&D with unconsciousness/dying rules, it's tactically a bad idea to spend time finishing off a target that's out of the fight instead of moving on to other enemies.
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