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The joys of the falklands..

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85 replies to this topic

#21
Gorgon

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Of course they would say that, with the war and all. They can't police themselves.

#22
Walsingham

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Argentina doesn't have any claim, neither of course does England.


WTF? I assume you would follow that up with every country on Earth? We've no paricular 'right' to Swansea, or Portsmouth.

#23
Gorgon

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Denmark used to own the oil and mineral rights in Greenland, expressly because Greenland was a protectorate, same as the Faroe islands. That meant we were responsible for patroling it's borders and, theoretically at least, go to war with Russia if they ever decided to build bases there. Among other things we helped cover up an American neuclear accident in Thule. We very much had a claim if forgein powers decided to elbow in. Mutual benifit, despite this kind of arrangement going out of fashion over the last decades.

It's pretty ludicrous to say that a rock on the other side of the world is principally the same as Swasea, for all their desire to identify themselves as such. What they get out of the deal is the protection of being British citizens. e.i. the royal marines will come to their aid should the need arise, which it might, unlike in Swansea.

#24
Walsingham

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I could easily be being thick, but I don't follow your argument. Geographical proximity would mean that Britain has a greater claim to Paris in France than Glasgow in Scotland (distance to London). In fact Glasgow is nearly 100 miles further away from London than the Falklands are from Argentina.

The only remotely sensible - and still troublesome - definition is self-determination.

What you seem to be talking about - mutual benefit - is nothing more or less than a good basis for people choosing to associate.

Of course it also helps that the last the Argentines 'owned' the Falklands they behaved towards the islanders exactly as well as you might have expected the army of a fascist junta to behave. It's only about one generation ago now.

#25
Gorgon

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Britan would not have a greater claim to Paris than to Glasgow because of..... drumroll.... The channel. As you well know Geography is not merely distance. Military logistics play a factor in most cases. Especially in Europe where everybody has been at war with everybody else at some point. Mountain ranges are natural barriers in Spain and Italy, etc. etc.

Edited by Gorgon, 18 February 2012 - 06:59 AM.


#26
Raithe

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Well, historically speaking we did have a big claim to the north of France in the last millenia... ;)

#27
pmp10

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Well, historically speaking we did have a big claim to the north of France in the last millenia... ;)

The ruling dynasty had.
Don't confuse that with modern nationalistic bickering.

#28
Gorth

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Well, historically speaking we did have a big claim to the north of France in the last millenia... ;)

The ruling dynasty had.
Don't confuse that with modern nationalistic bickering.

Exactly. It was actually other way around. The French Plantagenets owned all of England ;)

#29
Raithe

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We have a knack for absorbing folks into the cultural mish-mash that is England and the UK.. ;) After all, they lived in England, there were.. 15 kings I believe of the line.

With the amount of bloodlines mixing in with the aristocracy, you don't think there's still a chunk of the family around?.. Actually I think one of the current Dukes is supposed to be descended from the Plantagenets on the wrong side of the blankets.

#30
Nonek

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And the dukes and minor nobility of Normandy were descended from Ganga Hrolf (travelling Rolf) and his followers, a rather fiercesome chap who was so successful in his viking raids that the frankish kings bought him off by ceding Normandy to him and his people. A few historians consider the Norman conquests as a continuation of the viking age, the hardy, warlike and vigorous Normanni aristocracy adapting over time.

#31
Bos_hybrid

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The people there wish to remain under British rule. Nothing else to discuss, Argentina can go cry in the corner.

#32
Darth InSidious

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Why does anyone even want that island?


I'll say this low and slow:


You didn't read the rest of my post it seems..

Also this seems to be a touchy subject? but I'm on your guys side, as I said, if the Falkies want to stay with Britain then that's how it should be.

My question was more in the area of why this is such a big deal (for Argentina), this didn't seem like a very important piece of land - until I read about the oil :)


The best book I've ever read on that question was Razor's Edge. Hugh Bicheno was an intelligence officer in South America and he argues that basically Argentina is mental. They have a twisted notion of national honour which essentially compells them to scrap over the Falklands even though there's no logical basis for it, the people living there don't want it, and in any case their military isn't up to it.

IMO this is the most important discussion we've had on this forum in ages. Because unless international opinion comes down firmly in favour of the islanders' right to decide peacefully where they live then Argentina might try violence. Hundreds if not thousands of lives will be lost. Write to your senator, or president, or witch-doctor and tell them Argentina is being crazy.


Personally, I reckon we should use the same sort of illogic that the Argentines do to lay claim to Argentina. It would, at least, put an end to their endless posturing about the Falklands, and Sean Penn could stop looking so stupid.

#33
Walsingham

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Britan would not have a greater claim to Paris than to Glasgow because of..... drumroll.... The channel. As you well know Geography is not merely distance. Military logistics play a factor in most cases. Especially in Europe where everybody has been at war with everybody else at some point. Mountain ranges are natural barriers in Spain and Italy, etc. etc.


So countries are like witches. They can't cross water?

#34
Gorth

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Britan would not have a greater claim to Paris than to Glasgow because of..... drumroll.... The channel. As you well know Geography is not merely distance. Military logistics play a factor in most cases. Especially in Europe where everybody has been at war with everybody else at some point. Mountain ranges are natural barriers in Spain and Italy, etc. etc.


So countries are like witches. They can't cross water?


Heard about Remagen?

#35
Calax

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Britan would not have a greater claim to Paris than to Glasgow because of..... drumroll.... The channel. As you well know Geography is not merely distance. Military logistics play a factor in most cases. Especially in Europe where everybody has been at war with everybody else at some point. Mountain ranges are natural barriers in Spain and Italy, etc. etc.


So countries are like witches. They can't cross water?

Well, either way, it still doesn't make sense given that the Falklands is across an ocean, and an entire hemisphere. Unless there's some form of "island hegemony" in play.

#36
Nepenthe

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Britan would not have a greater claim to Paris than to Glasgow because of..... drumroll.... The channel. As you well know Geography is not merely distance. Military logistics play a factor in most cases. Especially in Europe where everybody has been at war with everybody else at some point. Mountain ranges are natural barriers in Spain and Italy, etc. etc.


So countries are like witches. They can't cross water?

Well, either way, it still doesn't make sense given that the Falklands is across an ocean, and an entire hemisphere. Unless there's some form of "island hegemony" in play.

Kind of like Guam, eh?

#37
Calax

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Britan would not have a greater claim to Paris than to Glasgow because of..... drumroll.... The channel. As you well know Geography is not merely distance. Military logistics play a factor in most cases. Especially in Europe where everybody has been at war with everybody else at some point. Mountain ranges are natural barriers in Spain and Italy, etc. etc.


So countries are like witches. They can't cross water?

Well, either way, it still doesn't make sense given that the Falklands is across an ocean, and an entire hemisphere. Unless there's some form of "island hegemony" in play.

Kind of like Guam, eh?

Is a nearby government saying "It's ours you prick!" to the USA?

No?

Then no, it's not like Guam.

#38
Gorgon

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Britan would not have a greater claim to Paris than to Glasgow because of..... drumroll.... The channel. As you well know Geography is not merely distance. Military logistics play a factor in most cases. Especially in Europe where everybody has been at war with everybody else at some point. Mountain ranges are natural barriers in Spain and Italy, etc. etc.


So countries are like witches. They can't cross water?

What's going on here. Are you embarassed to admit that your country's past imperial success was largely due to the fact that it was isolated and well protected from incursions from Europe, leaving aside the Normans, or perhaps some antiquated notion of the Commonwealth, you can belong anywhere geographically and still be joined in spirit, that sort of thing.

#39
Malcador

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IMO this is the most important discussion we've had on this forum in ages. Because unless international opinion comes down firmly in favour of the islanders' right to decide peacefully where they live then Argentina might try violence. Hundreds if not thousands of lives will be lost. Write to your senator, or president, or witch-doctor and tell them Argentina is being crazy.


You really think that a second invasion is anywhere near likely ? If Argentina are completely insane, well, you guys can have another expedition followed by an easy whipping of an inferior force, with not a lot of dead on your side.

#40
Raithe

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What's going on here. Are you embarassed to admit that your country's past imperial success was largely due to the fact that it was isolated and well protected from incursions from Europe, leaving aside the Normans, or perhaps some antiquated notion of the Commonwealth, you can belong anywhere geographically and still be joined in spirit, that sort of thing.


So the fact that the islands were originally uninhabited.. that 70% of the population are descended from English, Scots, Welsh... and that nearly 90% of the entire population (including the non-UK descended residents) want to stay as British citizens and do not want to even discuss the idea of Argentina taking sovereignity of the islands have nothing to do with the situation? That's not imperialism, or colonialism. If the people there follow a specific culture, and believe they're a part of it, and they act that way.. and say "hey, this is my flag of choice".. then yeah, I'd say they're fairly joined in spirit.

And hey, in two millenia we were invaded by the Romans, the Saxons, the Vikings, the Normans... you can't exactly say we didn't suffer incursions. We're just good at absorbing them into the culture.. ;)





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