Where are the dungeons?

[Skazz]

Thanks, I'll look it up.

[Nokturnal Lex]

The dungeon design in general in both Pillars games needs some work. 

 

#1: Create a theme and stick with it.

Underwater Temples should have under water enemies and secret Waterfalls and Whirlpools, etc. Enemies should have a reason for being in each room. Think to yourself, if you lived in this Temple/Cave/Etc where would you sleep, eat, store supplies?  Don't just stick random enemies in each room for no reason.

 

#2: Create a plot. 

 

Have there be some sort of mystery to solve that isn't as easy as Pick up A, Put A in B. Create a storyline as to what happened to previous explorers, or animals that wandered inside.

 

#3: Always have a boss.

 

Everyone loves a good boss fight at the end of a dungeon. Make them memorable.

[Guest]

The dungeon design in general in both Pillars games needs some work.

 

#1: Create a theme and stick with it.

 

Underwater Temples should have under water enemies and secret Waterfalls and Whirlpools, etc. Enemies should have a reason for being in each room. Think to yourself, if you lived in this Temple/Cave/Etc where would you sleep, eat, store supplies? Don't just stick random enemies in each room for no reason.

 

#2: Create a plot.

 

Have there be some sort of mystery to solve that isn't as easy as Pick up A, Put A in B. Create a storyline as to what happened to previous explorers, or animals that wandered inside.

 

#3: Always have a boss.

 

Everyone loves a good boss fight at the end of a dungeon. Make them memorable.

Funny, all I could think about while reading that was the undersea Engwithan ruin on the RDC path.

[yoyolll]

 

For now, the lack of dungeons and the low number of quests are really discouraging me from a second run.

I count 93 completed quests in my playthrough. And again, I skipped some. But I guess “low number” is relative.

 

I feel like I’m understanding Josh’s recent presentation more the last couple of days. All some people want are dungeon crawlers. 

If you really want to compare it that way, then Pillars 1 had 132 quests, Baldur's Gate 1 had 128, and Baldur's Gate 2 had 120.  But obviously, that's a useless comparison.

 

Anyway, the issue isn't that I don't want them to do something different.  In fact, I love the concept of sailing and exploring in Deadfire.  The problem is that they removed dungeons and didn't put anything in it's place.  So now you have a game with these great sailing/exploring mechanic, but very little to do in it other than dialogue peppered with a few small battles.

 

And to be totally honest, I don't really know what they could have replaced dungeons with.  cRPGs are essentially a marriage of dungeon crawling (combat and loot) and roleplaying (quests and dialogue).  They removed 1/2 of that and replaced it with a sailing mechanic which isn't adequate by itself to fill that void.  I think maybe if they fleshed out ship combat and added some more RPG mechanics to that, then it might have gotten the job done.  But right now, the game feels somewhat barren.

[Starwars]

Like someone said, playlength isn't a very reliable thing in RPGs and it never ceases to amaze me that people continue to bring it up. And what's more, I just can't understand how someone can look at a game and go... nyeeh, 50 hours just isn't enough. 

 

As far as dungeons go, I'm pretty happy with what we got. It would've been nice to have one or two more substantial dungeons in the game but I'm glad they didn't try to do something like the Endless Paths again (which I still liked well enough). That said, it's hard to argue that there are cool areas in the game where it would've been nice if they were just a bit bigger and deeper.

At the same time, going through the Fort Deadlight quest was probably more enjoyable for me than any dungeon in Pillars, except maybe Durgan's Battery or the Abbey of the Fallen Moon. And Neketaka as a whole (with everything it entails, including the Old City) was just on a whole other level.

 

You wn some and lose some.

[PangaeaACDC]

This is the no spoiler section. How about bloody respecting that!

[Purudaya]

Steam has me at 80 hours so far on Veteran. I've been focusing on side content and saving most of the critical path for last, so I haven't even been to Ashen Maw yet. I've done about 90% of the bounties, Nemnok, and all of the faction quests that aren't locked at this stage of the narrative. There are still about 6 side quests active in my journal and probably some that I've missed or that will open up later. Haven't encountered either of the dragons yet and just reached level 16.

 

So no, I wouldn't call it a short game, especially once the difficulty gets fixed. We tend to think back on the BG series as being longer, but Steam is clocking me in at 220 hours for BG2 and I know I've done at least two complete playthroughs and a few abandoned campaigns. PoE2 seems about par for the course; I think maybe it just feels shorter to some because of how the quests are structured/organized. There's no watcher's keep or underdark equivalent, but the trade-off is a pretty solid sense of adventure and exploration.

 

Your mileage may vary, but I don't buy the 50 hour estimate, especially not for a completionist playthrough unless you're absolutely rushing through it on classic or easy to get it done.

[yoyolll]

Your mileage may vary, but I don't buy the 50 hour estimate, especially not for a completionist playthrough unless you're absolutely rushing through it on classic or easy to get it done.

It's not an estimate, I beat it in 50 hours and got every island, every bounty, every companion, 3 out of 4 faction questlines (couldn't do the final quest for the RDC), bought every ship in the game, did every side quest, and beat the game on veteran difficulty:

 

http://i.imgur.com/1guOAOZ.png

 

I play at a pretty leisurely rate, too.  I really have no idea how people are playing this for longer than 50-60 hours.

 

In fact, that's what the first results on HLTB say, too:

 

https://howlongtobeat.com/game.php?id=44045

Edited May 19, 2018 by yoyolll

[Excerpt]

Have you been to the

Old City Ruins beneath Nekataka?

and also there is the

Sepulchers also in Nekataka.

 

 

There are other areas as well I would definitely consider dungeons and I'm not even remotely finished exploring yet. Not to mention in addition to several dungeons I have encountered many of the quests are MUCH longer than in POE1 and take you to several different locations.

 

Whereas in the first most quests were either in a single location or had you going back and forth between 1 or 2 places (excluding all the trips for camping supplies, Madiccho, how annoying that was!).

[Purudaya]

 

Your mileage may vary, but I don't buy the 50 hour estimate, especially not for a completionist playthrough unless you're absolutely rushing through it on classic or easy to get it done.

It's not an estimate, I beat it in 50 hours and got every island, every bounty, every companion, 3 out of 4 faction questlines (couldn't do the final quest for the RDC), bought every ship in the game, did every side quest, and beat the game on veteran difficulty:

 

http://i.imgur.com/1guOAOZ.png

 

I play at a pretty leisurely rate, too.  I really have no idea how people are playing this for longer than 50-60 hours.

 

In fact, that's what the first results on HLTB say, too:

 

https://howlongtobeat.com/game.php?id=44045

 

Maybe I'm just taking my time reading through dialogue or something? I don't feel like my pace has been especially leisurely and I haven't lost a fight yet due to the atrocious difficulty balancing (although I did switch to PoTD via console about 20 hours back, so maybe that's slowing me down). I don't know why I'm on track to get double the hours out of this game than you have.

 

Did you go to Ashen Maw early on? Maybe it locks you out of some side content or something (feel free to post a screenshot of your journal, would be interesting to see if there are any glaring differences). I feel like my gameplay has been pretty purposeful and I still have three of the final four faction quests, one dragon, 3 bounties, and about 1/5 of the map still unexplored. I spend about the same amount of time as others on most CRPGs, so it's weird that there's so much of a discrepancy between playthroughs.

 

That said, I'm sorry you're having a negative experience. If I were a backer and felt like I'd experienced everything the game has to offer in 52 hours, I would be frustrated too.

[Mikeymoonshine]

It's not always easy to compare play time, my first POE playthrough ended up at 2008 hours after I had played all the dlc. I have no idea why it took me so long to complete I seem to always take longer than average with these types of games. BG2 was definately less than that though for me. I have done quicker runs of POE but nothing under fifty hours. 

[yoyolll]

Have you been to the

Old City Ruins beneath Nekataka?

and also there is the

Sepulchers also in Nekataka.

 

 

There are other areas as well I would definitely consider dungeons and I'm not even remotely finished exploring yet. Not to mention in addition to several dungeons I have encountered many of the quests are MUCH longer than in POE1 and take you to several different locations.

 

Whereas in the first most quests were either in a single location or had you going back and forth between 1 or 2 places (excluding all the trips for camping supplies, Madiccho, how annoying that was!).

Yes, unless there is a special area at the final RDC questline, I've visited every map in the game.

 

Old City Ruins, while short, had a really well done theme.  But I wish there was more to do in it.  It felt more like a wilderness area from Pillars 1 rather than a dungeon.

 

Sepulchers was great too, but it was tiny.  That kind of applies to Deadfire as a whole, I think.  Great game, but not enough of it.  They have a good opportunity to fix that with the DLCs.

[yoyolll]

 

 

Your mileage may vary, but I don't buy the 50 hour estimate, especially not for a completionist playthrough unless you're absolutely rushing through it on classic or easy to get it done.

It's not an estimate, I beat it in 50 hours and got every island, every bounty, every companion, 3 out of 4 faction questlines (couldn't do the final quest for the RDC), bought every ship in the game, did every side quest, and beat the game on veteran difficulty:

 

http://i.imgur.com/1guOAOZ.png

 

I play at a pretty leisurely rate, too.  I really have no idea how people are playing this for longer than 50-60 hours.

 

In fact, that's what the first results on HLTB say, too:

 

https://howlongtobeat.com/game.php?id=44045

 

Maybe I'm just taking my time reading through dialogue or something? I don't feel like my pace has been especially leisurely and I haven't lost a fight yet due to the atrocious difficulty balancing (although I did switch to PoTD via console about 20 hours back, so maybe that's slowing me down). I don't know why I'm on track to get double the hours out of this game than you have.

 

Did you go to Ashen Maw early on? Maybe it locks you out of some side content or something (feel free to post a screenshot of your journal, would be interesting to see if there are any glaring differences). I feel like my gameplay has been pretty purposeful and I still have three of the final four faction quests, one dragon, 3 bounties, and about 1/5 of the map still unexplored. I spend about the same amount of time as others on most CRPGs, so it's weird that there's so much of a discrepancy between playthroughs.

 

That said, I'm sorry you're having a negative experience. If I were a backer and felt like I'd experienced everything the game has to offer in 52 hours, I would be frustrated too.

 

In these types of games, I always do every bit of side content I can before moving on with the main quest.  Before Ashen Maw, I did all the sidequests I could, explored every uncharted island, did all companion quests, and killed all the bounties and named ships.  My party was level 20 by the time I got to Ashen Maw.

 

I really did not have a negative experience at all with Deadfire.  I hope I haven't given that impression.  The ending did kind of leave a sour taste in my mouth, but overall I like the game a lot, I just wish there was more.  My only major complaint with the game is the lack of content in terms of dungeons/combat and short questlines.  Like I said, they have a good opportunity here to fix those two things with the DLC.

[ultornet]

What I am missing is the teased "Fulvano's Voyage" dungeon, theysaid it was going to be like Endless Paths of Od Nua :/

[Guest]

What I am missing is the teased "Fulvano's Voyage" dungeon, theysaid it was going to be like Endless Paths of Od Nua :/

Fulvano's Voyage != Endless Paths. The only comparison is that they were both additional areas unlocked by campaign milestones. Everything in Fulvano's Voyage is in the game (though it's not called "Fulvano's Voyage"), including a mini-dungeon at the end.

[ultornet]

I see, then I have yet to discover that loved the scattered hints of Fulvano's pursuits in PoE

[yoyolll]

I'm confused what exactly Fulvano's voyage is.  It was a backer goal, but most of the islands on the path were integral to the faction sidequests:

https://forums.obsidian.net/uploads/monthly_05_2018/post-43623-0-84885100-1526242014.jpg

 

So would we just not have gotten Crookspur, Wahaki, and the Principi if the backer goals weren't met?  Because otherwise, only Drowned Barrows and Splintered Reef are left, and those were quite small.

[Volourn]

Dungeons in PE2 are alright. Could be longer and more involved. Even the mulkti level ones tend to have  one or two rooms only. Still, way better than the SOZ ones.

[Purudaya]

@yoyolll Hey, did you get a chance to do Splintered Reef during your playthrough (far SE corner of the map)? It's an undead city about the size of Dunnage - an island rather than a dungeon, but it kind of plays like one. You said you played everything so I figured you've already seen it, but I almost missed it finishing up my playthrough and thought it might be up your alley. About as much content as Drowned Barrows, I would guess, although the boss fight is less challenging/hilarious.

 

[Yakmann]

Having played Splintered Reef yesterday, I say it's probably the best dungeon in the game. It's actually telling a story, somewhat intertwined with other stories in the game. And I personally found the fights comparatively challenging.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Yakmann

[Jorian Drake]

I'm nearing the end of the game now.  I've completed all the side quests, companion quests, and bounties, explored the whole map and visited every location available before the end-game.

 

So far, I really do love the game.  But I've noticed that there are no real dungeons in all of Deadfire.

 

You're sailing in it since the start. A game dungeon doesn't need underground tunnels to be a dungeon.

 

I'm confused what exactly Fulvano's voyage is. It was a backer goal, but most of the islands on the path were integral to the faction sidequests:

https://forums.obsidian.net/uploads/monthly_05_2018/post-43623-0-84885100-1526242014.jpg

 

So would we just not have gotten Crookspur, Wahaki, and the Principi if the backer goals weren't met? Because otherwise, only Drowned Barrows and Splintered Reef are left, and those were quite small.

If some places are left out developers can just pack other places more full with NPCs and quests, I assume that would've happened without the backer goals reached: A smaller map with fewer locations but packed with more things (and perhaps fewer unique portraits, voiced lines, and loot, other than obviously fewer unique locations)

Edited May 21, 2018 by Jorian Drake

[mrmonocle]

Huge areas are left in IWD and BG2

[Jorian Drake]

Huge areas are left in IWD and BG2

Indeed, there were a lot of places in the old classics as well which you might have stumbled into and had not much present either, other than perhaps a random encounter. Just because a place exists it doesn't need to actually have anything interesting in it, I consider the mere existence of maps and their designs something worth and reason enough alreadys to explore all places. Edited May 21, 2018 by Jorian Drake

[yoyolll]

@yoyolll Hey, did you get a chance to do Splintered Reef during your playthrough (far SE corner of the map)? It's an undead city about the size of Dunnage - an island rather than a dungeon, but it kind of plays like one. You said you played everything so I figured you've already seen it, but I almost missed it finishing up my playthrough and thought it might be up your alley. About as much content as Drowned Barrows, I would guess, although the boss fight is less challenging/hilarious.

 

 

Yes I did. I won't spoil anything since we are in the no-spoiler forum, but I remember it being made up of 3 small areas plus one quest-giver's house.  That quest was pretty good, but short.  Maybe I went about it the wrong way cause the whole place went by pretty quickly and I didn't have to fight too many enemies.  I completed the quest in quite an evil manner, since I was playing an evil character for my first playthrough.

 

 

I'm nearing the end of the game now.  I've completed all the side quests, companion quests, and bounties, explored the whole map and visited every location available before the end-game.

 

So far, I really do love the game.  But I've noticed that there are no real dungeons in all of Deadfire.

 

You're sailing in it since the start. A game dungeon doesn't need underground tunnels to be a dungeon.

 

I described earlier in this thread what makes a dungeon a dungeon.  I also made the point that it doesn't have to be a literal dungeon or underground.  The open sea doesn't compare at all.  It has none of the elements of a dungeon, although I'm very interested to hear anyone's arguments if they want to debate that.  I'll copy paste what I wrote here:

 

Yeah, I don't think the Caribbean style setting lends itself to big dungeons, but I still wish they had at least 3 or 4 of them.  Regardless of the setting, I think of dungeons and combat as the "meat" of an RPG, with story still being essential but not necessarily needing as much volume in order to be good (thinking of Icewind Dale 1&2 and Fallout 1&2).

 

Also, dungeons don't have to be literal dungeons.  They could've done, as the poster above mentioned, a massive ship dungeon for example.  Or maybe a jungle, or a skull island type thing.  "Dungeon" in this context really just means a large, interconnected network of dangerous areas filled with enemies, traps, secrets, loot, puzzles, and maybe NPCs and quests, that is separated from the rest of the world (the "overworld"), and that has it's own theme, story, and background.

 

I think Raedric's Hold is an excellent example of a good RPG dungeon.  As a big fan of Icewind Dale, I prefer dungeons on the scale of Endless Paths, but I really would've been happy with 3 or 4 dungeons the size of Raedric's Hold.  Instead, the world is made up of several large quest hubs and some mini-dungeons scattered across the islands.

 

Anyway, I realize everyone has a different idea of what is important in an RPG.  It's just good to see I'm not alone in being disappointed by the lack of dungeons in Deadfire.

Edited May 21, 2018 by yoyolll

[DaKatarn]

 

@yoyolll Hey, did you get a chance to do Splintered Reef during your playthrough (far SE corner of the map)? It's an undead city about the size of Dunnage - an island rather than a dungeon, but it kind of plays like one. You said you played everything so I figured you've already seen it, but I almost missed it finishing up my playthrough and thought it might be up your alley. About as much content as Drowned Barrows, I would guess, although the boss fight is less challenging/hilarious.

 

 

Yes I did. I won't spoil anything since we are in the no-spoiler forum, but I remember it being made up of 3 small areas plus one quest-giver's house.  That quest was pretty good, but short.  Maybe I went about it the wrong way cause the whole place went by pretty quickly and I didn't have to fight too many enemies.  I completed the quest in quite an evil manner, since I was playing an evil character for my first playthrough.

 

 

I'm nearing the end of the game now.  I've completed all the side quests, companion quests, and bounties, explored the whole map and visited every location available before the end-game.

 

So far, I really do love the game.  But I've noticed that there are no real dungeons in all of Deadfire.

 

You're sailing in it since the start. A game dungeon doesn't need underground tunnels to be a dungeon.

 

I described earlier in this thread what makes a dungeon a dungeon.  I also made the point that it doesn't have to be a literal dungeon or underground.  The open sea doesn't compare at all.  It has none of the elements of a dungeon, although I'm very interested to hear anyone's arguments if they want to debate that.  I'll copy paste what I wrote here:

 

Yeah, I don't think the Caribbean style setting lends itself to big dungeons, but I still wish they had at least 3 or 4 of them.  Regardless of the setting, I think of dungeons and combat as the "meat" of an RPG, with story still being essential but not necessarily needing as much volume in order to be good (thinking of Icewind Dale 1&2 and Fallout 1&2).

 

Also, dungeons don't have to be literal dungeons.  They could've done, as the poster above mentioned, a massive ship dungeon for example.  Or maybe a jungle, or a skull island type thing.  "Dungeon" in this context really just means a large, interconnected network of dangerous areas filled with enemies, traps, secrets, loot, puzzles, and maybe NPCs and quests, that is separated from the rest of the world (the "overworld"), and that has it's own theme, story, and background.

 

I think Raedric's Hold is an excellent example of a good RPG dungeon.  As a big fan of Icewind Dale, I prefer dungeons on the scale of Endless Paths, but I really would've been happy with 3 or 4 dungeons the size of Raedric's Hold.  Instead, the world is made up of several large quest hubs and some mini-dungeons scattered across the islands.

 

Anyway, I realize everyone has a different idea of what is important in an RPG.  It's just good to see I'm not alone in being disappointed by the lack of dungeons in Deadfire.

 

 

IMO here are the good ingredients for a RPG (the order doesn't matter):

 

1/ A good universe with rich background and possibilities.

 

2/ A charismatic vilain with deep identity and goals.

 

3/A good system of build and fighting.

 

4/ A LOT OF DUNGEONS WITH MANY TRAPS AND HARD OPTIONAL BOSS!

 

5/ A good variety of class and spell for good replayability.

Edited May 21, 2018 by DaKatarn