[MECHANICS] Power level compilation thread

[Kaylon]

Is it only me, or is Empower mostly useless on anything other than spellcasters? Especially if using spells for damage.

Yes, you can consider Empower being basically a caster ability.

[Haplok]

 

Is it only me, or is Empower mostly useless on anything other than spellcasters? Especially if using spells for damage.

Yes, you can consider Empower being basically a caster ability.

 

 

Well,  you do get half of your encounter resources back. Quite useful for some resource hungry classes, like Fighters.

[thelee]

 

Is it only me, or is Empower mostly useless on anything other than spellcasters? Especially if using spells for damage.

Yes, you can consider Empower being basically a caster ability.

 

 

This is not totally right. Empower does boost even weapon-based martial abilities, ~ 50% to the base damage (so it is multiplicative with other bonuses).

 

People just notice spells a lot more because there are degenerate cases where empowering a damage spell is basically super overpowered (Minoletta's Crushing Missiles is my go-to autowin button on POTD, but e.g. Josh Sawyer pointed out how broken high-PL spells can be when empowered [imho in part because in "normal" gameplay, they never really get much PL-based scaling because they are already high-level, such as meteor shower or cleansing flame, so empowering them puts them way over the top]).

 

But there are also martial abilities that can be really good when empowered. The special two-handed whispers of the endless paths great sword, when used on an empowered flames of devotion can be really good (boosted base damage, boosted flames damage, boosted penetration, boosted accuracy [increased chance for crit for even more damage], and then again for the whispers of the endless paths' aoe effect).

 

Similarly, while there are plenty of martial abilities that are underwhelming when empowered, there are plenty of spells where empowering them is really underwhelming. Try empowering Confusion or Repulsing Seal or Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff. 

Edited May 29, 2018 by thelee

[thelee]

made some quick edits from 1.1 (empower is only 5, explosives may no longer get its weird, character-level based scaling), and also added a section on reverse pickpocketing.

[Kaylon]

 

 

Is it only me, or is Empower mostly useless on anything other than spellcasters? Especially if using spells for damage.

Yes, you can consider Empower being basically a caster ability.

 

 

This is not totally right. Empower does boost even weapon-based martial abilities, ~ 50% to the base damage (so it is multiplicative with other bonuses).

 

People just notice spells a lot more because there are degenerate cases where empowering a damage spell is basically super overpowered (Minoletta's Crushing Missiles is my go-to autowin button on POTD, but e.g. Josh Sawyer pointed out how broken high-PL spells can be when empowered [imho in part because in "normal" gameplay, they never really get much PL-based scaling because they are already high-level, such as meteor shower or cleansing flame, so empowering them puts them way over the top]).

 

But there are also martial abilities that can be really good when empowered. The special two-handed whispers of the endless paths great sword, when used on an empowered flames of devotion can be really good (boosted base damage, boosted flames damage, boosted penetration, boosted accuracy [increased chance for crit for even more damage], and then again for the whispers of the endless paths' aoe effect).

 

Similarly, while there are plenty of martial abilities that are underwhelming when empowered, there are plenty of spells where empowering them is really underwhelming. Try empowering Confusion or Repulsing Seal or Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff. 

 

Yes, in theory it can be used for melee too, however it's useless most of the time. Doing 50% more damage to a single target is maybe good for an assassin once in a while, otherwise it makes no difference in a fight. The only utility for melee is to replenish their resources from time to time and not for damage, but for buffs/heals.

 

Whispers of the endless paths is a joke now - even empowered with the laughable 20% lash is not even close to a simple fan of flames. 

 

No, ALL empowered martial abilities are underwhelming compared to what is available to casters. The fact that are also a few spells which don't benefit too much from empower is irrelevant - even if there's only a single spell which can make a big difference in a fight it's more than enough.

[fxluk]

Very nice overview of this mechanism. It really should be described better in game.

[thelee]

 

 

 

Is it only me, or is Empower mostly useless on anything other than spellcasters? Especially if using spells for damage.

Yes, you can consider Empower being basically a caster ability.

 

 

This is not totally right. Empower does boost even weapon-based martial abilities, ~ 50% to the base damage (so it is multiplicative with other bonuses).

 

People just notice spells a lot more because there are degenerate cases where empowering a damage spell is basically super overpowered (Minoletta's Crushing Missiles is my go-to autowin button on POTD, but e.g. Josh Sawyer pointed out how broken high-PL spells can be when empowered [imho in part because in "normal" gameplay, they never really get much PL-based scaling because they are already high-level, such as meteor shower or cleansing flame, so empowering them puts them way over the top]).

 

But there are also martial abilities that can be really good when empowered. The special two-handed whispers of the endless paths great sword, when used on an empowered flames of devotion can be really good (boosted base damage, boosted flames damage, boosted penetration, boosted accuracy [increased chance for crit for even more damage], and then again for the whispers of the endless paths' aoe effect).

 

Similarly, while there are plenty of martial abilities that are underwhelming when empowered, there are plenty of spells where empowering them is really underwhelming. Try empowering Confusion or Repulsing Seal or Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff. 

 

Yes, in theory it can be used for melee too, however it's useless most of the time. Doing 50% more damage to a single target is maybe good for an assassin once in a while, otherwise it makes no difference in a fight. The only utility for melee is to replenish their resources from time to time and not for damage, but for buffs/heals.

 

Whispers of the endless paths is a joke now - even empowered with the laughable 20% lash is not even close to a simple fan of flames. 

 

No, ALL empowered martial abilities are underwhelming compared to what is available to casters. The fact that are also a few spells which don't benefit too much from empower is irrelevant - even if there's only a single spell which can make a big difference in a fight it's more than enough.

 

 

It's possible that for single-class melee, empower is better used for replenishing. But at least for my experience, with multi-class melee (which has ~ 2x resources), thanks to the action economy (you can only do so much), I find myself regularly empowering specific martial abilities, and rarely ever buffs. Even with the nerf, I still empower whispers of the endless paths flames of devotion to good effect in end-game PotD.

 

Plus, 50% bonus base damage, with bonus accuracy, and bonus penetration on certain martial abilities can be the difference between a dead enemy character and one that is bloodied/near death. In some fights, a dead enemy NOW (or an interrupted enemy NOW if you're trying to land an interrupt) is much more important than being able to replenish your resources later.

 

And directly comparing whispers of the endless paths on a martial ability to a fan of flames--trying to be charitable here--kind of demonstrates how little you might understand about class balance, because it is much more holistic then that. E.G. a paladin could nuke as well as a wizard, it would be OP, because unlike a wizard, the paladin has a lot more built-in durability. Plus, unlike martial abilities and attacks, spells are counterbalanced by cast times.

Edited June 8, 2018 by thelee

[Kaylon]

 

It's possible that for single-class melee, empower is better used for replenishing. But at least for my experience, with multi-class melee (which has ~ 2x resources), thanks to the action economy (you can only do so much), I find myself regularly empowering specific martial abilities, and rarely ever buffs. Even with the nerf, I still empower whispers of the endless paths flames of devotion to good effect in end-game PotD.

 

Plus, 50% bonus base damage, with bonus accuracy, and bonus penetration on certain martial abilities can be the difference between a dead enemy character and one that is bloodied/near death. In some fights, a dead enemy NOW (or an interrupted enemy NOW if you're trying to land an interrupt) is much more important than being able to replenish your resources later.

 

And directly comparing whispers of the endless paths on a martial ability to a fan of flames kind of demonstrates how little you might understand about class balance, because it is much more holistic then that. E.G. a paladin could nuke as well as a wizard, it would be OP, because unlike a wizard, the paladin has a lot more built-in durability. Plus, unlike martial abilities and attacks, spells are counterbalanced by cast times.

 

You try to find obscure advantages for empowering melee attacks while carefully avoiding to compare them to what an empowered spell can do. Your argument that it can help sometimes is truly laughable when you look at what difference it makes for spells...

 

The fan of flames example was very obvious because a simple spell, available to any class, from the lowest lvl scroll, is more effective than your "strong" empowered attack - it has nothing to do with class balance. And by the way a wizard can become as tanky as a paladin if not more, melee and also nuke everything - I don't see the balance here.

 

I can understand you don't want casters nerfed, but at least stop talking about balance because it's obvious you don't want it.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Kaylon

[thelee]

 

 

It's possible that for single-class melee, empower is better used for replenishing. But at least for my experience, with multi-class melee (which has ~ 2x resources), thanks to the action economy (you can only do so much), I find myself regularly empowering specific martial abilities, and rarely ever buffs. Even with the nerf, I still empower whispers of the endless paths flames of devotion to good effect in end-game PotD.

 

Plus, 50% bonus base damage, with bonus accuracy, and bonus penetration on certain martial abilities can be the difference between a dead enemy character and one that is bloodied/near death. In some fights, a dead enemy NOW (or an interrupted enemy NOW if you're trying to land an interrupt) is much more important than being able to replenish your resources later.

 

And directly comparing whispers of the endless paths on a martial ability to a fan of flames kind of demonstrates how little you might understand about class balance, because it is much more holistic then that. E.G. a paladin could nuke as well as a wizard, it would be OP, because unlike a wizard, the paladin has a lot more built-in durability. Plus, unlike martial abilities and attacks, spells are counterbalanced by cast times.

 

You try to find obscure advantages for empowering melee attacks while carefully avoiding to compare them to what an empowered spell can do. Your argument that it can help sometimes is truly laughable when you look at what difference it makes for spells...

 

The fan of flames example was very obvious because a simple spell, available to any class, from the lowest lvl scroll, is more effective than your "strong" empowered attack - it has nothing to do with class balance. And by the way a wizard can become as tanky as a paladin if not more, melee and also nuke everything - I don't see the balance here.

 

I can understand you don't want casters nerfed, but at least stop talking about balance because it's obvious you don't want it.

 

 

I literally don't understand where you get the idea that I don't want casters nerfed. If you've followed the 1.1 patch thread at all, I'm all in there hyping up the nerfs, and I've been one of the people ringing the bell about Devotions for the Faithful being OP since like poe1 and deadfire backer beta 1, even though I main-class a priest 80% of the time and include a priest in my party another 10% of the time.

 

You're saying that empowering is only useful for casters. I find that categorically false, and frankly a falsehood to advise other newer players of this. You say that martial abilities ain't worth the empowerment. I also find that false (as I said earlier single-class melee can be more resource-constrained and may find more utility from replenishment rather than single-ability empowerment). In no part of this did I say that empowered spells could not be way better than empowered martial abilities, in fact I've repeatedly mentioned spells can frequently benefit from multiple aspects of power-level scaling and get disproportionate benefit, and indeed I've repeatedly mentioned how a mere PL4 spell (Minoletta's) is basically an auto-win when empowered (though possible less so now that empowerment is only +5 and potd encounters got buffed).

Edited June 8, 2018 by thelee

[thelee]

I did some research and updated the OP to reflect new findings about explosives scaling, and I also added specific effects on alchemy on drugs as well as minimum power levels for each bomb.

[thelee]

Small update: added info on how scrolls do PL scaling.

 

Not to toot my own horn, but if anyone thinks this is worth being a pinned post, I wouldn't mind.

[Maxzero]

So Sorceror (Druid/Wizard) would be far better off throwing Bombs in difficult fights then using their spells because there explosive skill would be sky high?

 

Druid +2

Wizard +2

Blessing +2

Scientist background +1

Multiclass -1

Nature Godlike bonus? +1

 

 

Starting explosive skill = 6+1 by level 3 you can have 8+1 explosives and +50% damage to Cinder Bombs/Grenades.

 

Cast Chillfog then throw a Grenade at them.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Maxzero

[thelee]

So Sorceror (Druid/Wizard) would be far better off throwing Bombs in difficult fights then using their spells because there explosive skill would be sky high?

 

Druid +2

Wizard +2

Blessing +2

Scientist background +1

Multiclass -1

Nature Godlike bonus? +1

 

 

Starting explosive skill = 6+1 by level 3 you can have 8+1 explosives and +50% damage to Cinder Bombs/Grenades.

 

Cast Chillfog then throw a Grenade at them.

 

 

Yes and no. Yes, in the sense that the way deadfire is balanced, consumables are potentially much more powerful than non-consumables (which tbh makes sense because consumables go away after one use and deadfire's economy is decently balanced enough that it's hard to keep up with aggressive usage). No, in the sense that power level scaling isn't too relevant compared to the base effect, because it's that base effect that gets amplified. A crappy base effect that gets +100% is still crappy compared to a decent effect that gets no power level scaling. Put another way, +50% damage/+25% duration on PL4 grenade or cinder bomb is good compared to no power scaling with Chill Fog, but grenade and cinder bomb had good base effects to begin with. You could get +80% damage/+40% duration with PL1 sparkcrackers or stun bomb, but you're starting from miniscule damage/duration numbers (for stun bomb) or weak effects (distraction from sparkcrackers), so even though the scaling would be huge Chill Fog would probably still be a better general purpose use of your time in such a situation.

Edited June 17, 2018 by thelee

[thelee]

I updated the original post for 1.2, which simplified and nerfed a lot of how consumables do power level scaling.

[thelee]

Updated the OP because while testing something else I discovered that PL scaling is actually a multiplicative bonus with everything else, which makes PL scaling (especially damage scaling) much stronger.

 

This just furthers my pet belief that spells/abilities that don't do damage/healing need stronger PL scaling, because the fact that damage/healing can get both a multiplicative damage/healing boost makes them that much better. I mean, does Obsidian truly think that a multiplicative +10% damage (or worse, a +10% damage and a +5% multiplicative duration for a damage-over-time effect) is equivalent in strength to a multiplicative +5% duration effect? It might be closer to balanced to switch those numbers.

Edited July 11, 2018 by thelee

[Boeroer]

Yes - PL duration and dmg bonus is added to base and this works multiplicative. That makes the +7 PL for Livegiver's spells (when shifted) much more powerful than one would expect as soon as you add other healing bonuses as well.

This also explains why empower was so ridiculous in beta and had to be tuned down.

 

And also here I guess: the designers didn't know how empower/PL actually work "under the hood".

Edited July 11, 2018 by Boeroer

[kilay]

Thnks for this in deep explanation, really useful , just a question about that
 

Scrolls: function exactly like spells with one critical difference: instead of using your power level, it substitutes half your Arcana skill for it. Regardless of the spell on the scroll, the spell is treated as PL0. If you have a bonus to your power level (from items, potions, or whatnot), those also boost scroll power 1:1. Might, intellect, and perception have no effect on scrolls. (Note: I suspect it uses half your Arcana skill because scroll strength is already tied to arcana based on the minimum required to use one, so Obsidian didn't want you to get further insane scaling from a scroll of maelstrom, for example.)

 

I did a mod where i've changed the requirements of the the scrolls (levels & skills), so following what you stated , have those scroll spells a greater PL based on the new requirements ?

[thelee]

Thnks for this in deep explanation, really useful , just a question about that

 

Scrolls: function exactly like spells with one critical difference: instead of using your power level, it substitutes half your Arcana skill for it. Regardless of the spell on the scroll, the spell is treated as PL0. If you have a bonus to your power level (from items, potions, or whatnot), those also boost scroll power 1:1. Might, intellect, and perception have no effect on scrolls. (Note: I suspect it uses half your Arcana skill because scroll strength is already tied to arcana based on the minimum required to use one, so Obsidian didn't want you to get further insane scaling from a scroll of maelstrom, for example.)

 

I did a mod where i've changed the requirements of the the scrolls (levels & skills), so following what you stated , have those scroll spells a greater PL based on the new requirements ?

 

I don't think the levels need to be higher. Scrolls in general got a huge nerf in 1.2, so unless you really want to gimp scrolls it might be worth seeing how the current in-game levels work out.

[kilay]

 

Thnks for this in deep explanation, really useful , just a question about that

 

Scrolls: function exactly like spells with one critical difference: instead of using your power level, it substitutes half your Arcana skill for it. Regardless of the spell on the scroll, the spell is treated as PL0. If you have a bonus to your power level (from items, potions, or whatnot), those also boost scroll power 1:1. Might, intellect, and perception have no effect on scrolls. (Note: I suspect it uses half your Arcana skill because scroll strength is already tied to arcana based on the minimum required to use one, so Obsidian didn't want you to get further insane scaling from a scroll of maelstrom, for example.)

 

I did a mod where i've changed the requirements of the the scrolls (levels & skills), so following what you stated , have those scroll spells a greater PL based on the new requirements ?

 

I don't think the levels need to be higher. Scrolls in general got a huge nerf in 1.2, so unless you really want to gimp scrolls it might be worth seeing how the current in-game levels work out.

 

 

I nerfed it anymore after this reply from Yodamaxx

"The idea is good, though i think the better way of making scrolls less availiable while staying reasonable is tieing them to wizard progression. Not to wizard as a class but simply to make new lvl scroll availiable when your usual wizard would gain new spells thus getting. say. 9th lvl scrolls on character lvl 19 so the arcana requirement for lvl 9th spells should be around 19 maybe more and so on. I think its quite reasonable because arcana is a magic science for wizard-wannabes who lack the talent to control the grimoire but still want to study and use magic, thus the levelling of an arcana character should be similar to that of the wizard, perhaps even slower. Right now even with your changes 9th lvl scrolls are availiable too early //9because of equipment/class/profession/pet/buff thingy bonuses i got em at char lvl 9-10) and because of hilarious amount of money in this game they are way too easy to make'

Edited July 11, 2018 by kilay

[thelee]

i was putting together a new build and noticed that a lot of PL scaling has been stealth-nerfed at some point, so I updated the OP.

 

TL;DR: at least the major culprits I checked no longer get more than 1/2 projectile per PL, they all get 1/2 projectile per PL. 

 

In addition, universally all damage/heal spells now only get +5% damage/healing per PL.

 

The net effect of this is that PL scaling is less disproportionately in favor of projectile damage spells (though they still get more benefit than e.g. debuffs or buffs).

[dunehunter]

i was putting together a new build and noticed that a lot of PL scaling has been stealth-nerfed at some point, so I updated the OP.

 

TL;DR: at least the major culprits I checked no longer get more than 1/2 projectile per PL, they all get 1/2 projectile per PL. 

 

In addition, universally all damage/heal spells now only get +5% damage/healing per PL.

 

The net effect of this is that PL scaling is less disproportionately in favor of projectile damage spells (though they still get more benefit than e.g. debuffs or buffs).

 

PL is still a multiplier for weapon abilities, like @Manveru123 explained, it makes low level abilities like Crippling Strike and FoD more powerful than high level abilities because like when u are lvl 20, your Crippling Strike will have an invisible x1.35 multiplier to the damage, and this is not lash not damage bonus, but an unique bonus. Also item like Magran's Favor, Sun&Moon makes FoD extremely powerful, paladin dual wielding these can do much more damage with FoD than a two hander FoD due to the additional PL, and I mean the first strike of FoD already surpass a 2 hander FoD due to higher PL/base damage.

Edited September 20, 2018 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

This is also true for some low lvl spells vs high level spells afaik. Insect Swarm nearly does the same dmg per tick (over a longer time) as Plague of Insects (much bigger AoE though). THis usually is balanced by higer base damage of the high level stuff. So it's quite easy to balance this because every spall has its own base damage which can be tweaked rel. savely without breaking stuff.

 

Problem with weapon based abilites is that you can't increase the base damage (of the weapon) to balance high level abilites with low level abilites that get more PL bonus. You often get an additive dmg bonus. Those usually show less impressive results - even if they go quite high. I somethimes think that some devs or designers still don't fully grasp how different those things behave once you pwergame a bit. Putting some kind of lower but multiplicative bonus like a lash would be a better solution in this case.

 

Another thing is "double" PL scaling with Transcended Suffering: your fists' PEN, ACC and add. dmg bonus scale with PL - as well as the dmg bonus of let's say Stunning Surge.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

Some quick math, battle axe base damage in average is 16, greatsword is 21. With +4 PL from magran and sun/moon, you raise the base damage of axe for FoD to 16*1.2=19.2, and with lash from magran, you pretty much do same damage as a 2her FoD with your main weapon FoD, and then plus u hit enemy with offhand weapon/FoD, not to mention the much lower recovery time from fast weapon... And if you are kind wayfarer, you heal twice with DW... The balance here is totally screwed imo.

[Boeroer]

I think the main problem is that FoD is keyworded with fire (which is good) and that +4 Fire PL then leads to a dmg increase of the physical base dmg of the ability (no increase of the burning lash which would make sense but instead the physical base dmg - which doesn't make too much sense). Only universal PL increase should lead to an increase of physical weapon base dmg with an ability. Elemental PLs should only increase the respective elemental dmg, not the underlying pierce/crush/slash/raw dmg. If an ability somehow deals elemental base dmaage then sure: go ahead and increase its base damage with elemental PLs. For example if you use FIrebrand then +fire PLs shoul increase the base damage, since it's base damage is burn. But not in case of a normal estoc or a glowing axe that still does basic slash damage (not burn). 

 

If you'd take Bleak Walker's FoD (which is keyworded with fire and acid) and take another item that also increases corrode PL you would see the base dmg (not the lash damage) rise even more.

 

The mechanics of what influences physical dmg and what influences the elemental (lash) dmg are a bit intermingled here.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

I think the main problem is that FoD is keyworded with fire (which is good) and that +4 Fire PL then leads to a dmg increase of the physical base dmg of the ability (no increase of the burning lash which would make sense but instead the physical base dmg - which doesn't make too much sense). Only universal PL increase should lead to an increase of physical weapon base dmg with an ability. Elemental PLs should only increase the respective elemental dmg, not the underlying pierce/crush/slash/raw dmg. If an ability somehow deals elemental base dmaage then sure: go ahead and increase its base damage with elemental PLs. For example if you use FIrebrand then +fire PLs shoul increase the base damage, since it's base damage is burn. But not in case of a normal estoc or a glowing axe that still does basic slash damage (not burn). 

 

If you'd take Bleak Walker's FoD (which is keyworded with fire and acid) and take another item that also increases corrode PL you would see the base dmg (not the lash damage) rise even more.

 

The mechanics of what influences physical dmg and what influences the elemental (lash) dmg are a bit intermingled here.

 

Yeah I totally agree. Like in PoE 1, if you have that scion of flame talent, it only affects your fire lash and fire damage, but in DF, it increase your physical base damage just because your ability has a fire keyword and u have bonus PL for fire keyword, how weird it is. Imo it should only increase your lash damage because it's fire based.