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What's the general consensus about the current rest system?


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But if you rest time passes and your ship crew will cost you lots of food/drink and money. It's not the resources you use on the party that make resting expensive.

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What? People didn't get the Health/Endurance-Thing? Don't get me wrong, I think I'm fine with the change (I haven't played the beta), but debility shouldn't ever be a reason to change something in that kind of game. I don't want to sound like my own grandfather, but in our days we had to wrap our heads around much more complicated things. We were the generation that had to find out what works and what does not and although I felt a little bit challenged sometimes, I think it was totally OK to figure some things out for myself. And now you tell me todays kids have problems with two bars instead of one?

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Just to be clear: I think the new resting system is a lot better (various foods + bonuses instead of supplies -  in combination with maintenance costs over time) - but the health/injury system (which is connected to resting) is not.

 

I also think if you can't understand how endurance/health worked in PoE you might have other problems that are more pressing...

From what I read this was the major complaint about the system: that it wasn't easy to understand. Maybe Taylor's Theorem is not easy to understand, but endurance/health? 
A distich is sufficient to explain this.

Edited by Boeroer
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Cant figure out why rest spam hurt anyone in a single player game. Cant figure out really why they spent so much time and effort on nerfing things in a single player game. Oh my god instead of fixing the load times or the crashes lets make sure this class is just as mediocre as all the rest of the classes. Smashing Idea! Dilly Dilly.

It’s indeed really odd for the devs in this day and age to try to improve their game’s design. Isn’t selling the same thing over and over again good enough? Why do they need to try to make their games better? It’s as if they care about their games and audience, or something. Really really odd.

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I like balancing even in a single player game. Doesn't mean that it makes the game less interesting. Actually having one or two (or three or four) obvious OP build options makes the game boring.

 

Now I remember my times as a Diablo Hammerdin... man was he boring. ;)

Edited by Boeroer
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Cant figure out why rest spam hurt anyone in a single player game. Cant figure out really why they spent so much time and effort on nerfing things in a single player game. Oh my god instead of fixing the load times or the crashes lets make sure this class is just as mediocre as all the rest of the classes. Smashing Idea! Dilly Dilly.

It’s indeed really odd for the devs in this day and age to try to improve their game’s design. Isn’t selling the same thing over and over again good enough? Why do they need to try to make their games better? It’s as if they care about their games and audience, or something. Really really odd.

 

Better: of a more excellent or effective type or quality.

 

Pillars would have been better without crashes

Pillars would have been better without every increasing loading times

 

How does nerfing things make a game more excellent? I guess better is subjective.  But I would think performance is way higher on the list than making some characters who some people spend a long time to build worse, not better.

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Better: of a more excellent or effective type or quality.

 

Pillars would have been better without crashes

Pillars would have been better without every increasing loading times

 

How does nerfing things make a game more excellent? I guess better is subjective.  But I would think performance is way higher on the list than making some characters who some people spend a long time to build worse, not better.

And keeping an old ruleset would somehow make the game run better and load faster?

 

How did you spend a long time building a character, if Deadfire isn’t out yet? I assume what you mean is that certain character builds which worked in PoE1 wont work in Deadfire. Why is it a problem? It’s a new game, with new campaign, levelling all the way from lvl. 1 and while some old builds might not work anymore, probably a new ones will pop up. That’s the exciting part, no? Discovering the game, and experimenting with classes and abilities.

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I also think if you can't understand how endurance/health worked in PoE you might have other problems that are more pressing...

From what I read this was the major complaint about the system: that it wasn't easy to understand. Maybe Taylor's Theorem is not easy to understand, but endurance/health? 

A distich is sufficient to explain this.

 

It is sometimes tempting to look at statements like that and go say something "but its so simple, why don't you get it" or to react to changes being made with "you can't dumb things down for the idiots". But its important to look at reality. If you have representative and accurate feedback and that feedback tells you part of a game was experienced as too complicated or unfun then you have only one choice.

 

You will need to make changes. Perhaps you need to teach it better, or make the interface clearer, etc. But you cannot sit there and go "well they're all idiots for not getting it" it doesn't matter if that is true or not, it doesn't matter if you over or underestimated average intelligence. Whats matters is what reality is telling you. And if reality is telling you that it was indeed to complicated then you have to deal with it.

 

Well perhaps not. You can steadfastly hold on to your notions. To this day there are people who insist that THAC0 was in fact perfectly reasonable, intuitive and did not need to be changed. That bonuses that needed to be subtracted from a number and bonuses that needed to be added can both be expressed with a plus are fine. That having time units in a real time game be expressed in Rounds, Turns and Hours was not an issue.

 

Those people are generally considered to be wrong, and outside of Siege of Dragonspear as last hurrah nobody makes games with those rules anymore. And while DnD 5e was in many ways a rejection of the "modern" design of 4e nobody was clamoring to bring THAC0 back.

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Fourth, you could elect to not feed your crew to save food for your party.  I just hope you like mutiny.

 

If I can deal with mutiny by fighting my crew, then I'll definitely try it on my second playthrough. :p

 

But if you rest time passes and your ship crew will cost you lots of food/drink and money. It's not the resources you use on the party that make resting expensive.

 

This seems like a very good way to prevent an abuse of the rest system.

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Well, for transparency’s sake, I’d say I appreciate much more the new system vis-à-vis the old one, though I liked very much the old one conceptually speaking. But it had flaws and it did not successfully deter what it what was supposed to do, especially in a videogame format, that is to trump rest spamming. It also needlessly cut the flow of the game for more or less pointless reasons, I believe.

 

I’d try to clarify and be substantial.

 

For starters, the whole concept of rest is problematic in a videogame, especially in a single player game, where the only sentient being is you and you alone. Indeed, if the concept of resting is an interesting one in tabletop role-playing game, it is because of their very nature, which creates a sense of urgency. By virtue of having multiple players together, working toward a common goal, you end up unable to just consistently cheese the system because eventually one person will complain about the fact the game is slowing to a crawl because of the constant rest spamming, particularly the case if you have a good mix of martial and magic classes. Also, because of the structure of the adventures the characters partake in, often in dangerous territories, it would be easy for a game master to just abruptly attack the resting characters if they were to do so recklessly or to just replenish the garrison or to have the threat alert of the place be risen, or worst of all, having the objective fails on them because they took too much time to get where they were supposed to be because of the consistent rest spamming. Moreover, time flows quite differently in a TRPG format in contrast to a videogame ; for instance, the same amount of content will take much longer for a group of people to complete with pen and paper than for one person playing the game in a computer environment. It is so because you do not have to calculate everything, sure, but mostly because when you are surrounded by friends, cracking jokes and all that, debating the course of every actions, the same amount of content gives you much more hours of fun in that context, all things considered. And since time seems to flow slower in TRPGs, even if you have the exact same amount of resources to spend, both in the TRPG and in the CRPG format, you feel the resources depleting much faster in one than for the other. So, if you played perhaps four or five hours in a TRPG, in the middle of a dungeon, you might rest perhaps one or two times. But in a CRPG, you might have already rested multiple times, without being necessarily excessive in your use of resources or being cheesing the game to always have your maximum of resources available to you for every encounter. It is just the nature of both format that are different.

 

Though a side note, I would like also the point out the fact that the period of resting for the characters often coincide with the period of resting for the players in TRPGs, being intentional or not in design is of no importance. The game might adjourn for the day or at the very least a break is taken of some kind, perhaps to chat a bit, eat a snack or something of that nature. Thus, resting is just another great time to be had around the table most of the time – at least in the games I played around a  table. But in CRPGs, it is just downtime. Always. Resting is essentially a waiting game, for the computer to calculate a few scores here and there, to adjust to the new state of affairs. It is nothing special or exciting or new ; it gets you nowhere essentially. In CRPGs, you want the action to flow seamlessly ; I do not mean that it should thrive to be fast paced however, but it should try not to emulate too much the tabletop environment if it wants to be a great CRPG.

 

That is why I believe the new system of Deadfire, though surely imperfect, works better for me than the old one on at least one level and that is it : the flow of the game. With the new implemented system, you do not have to rest consistently if you play meticulously and take great care to avoid both traps and knockouts to replenish resources, the most crucial of them all in Pillars I, health and spells. You can theoretically go through a whole dungeon without needing to rest multiple times and still do most or all of the encounters in each map. Indeed, resting becomes akin to a strategic decision ; it is partly special, to some extent at least, in regard to what kind of bonus you want for the challenges you think are ahead. To that regard, I really hope there will be a lot of variety when it comes to bonus given by food. The more varied the better, I’d wager, because it will extend the strategic considerations to be had each time you click that button.

 

I would also like to point out the fact that since the Endurance/Health system does not exist anymore, really, it will also help a great deal with bringing suboptimal characters into play and avoid some problem when it comes to the management of resources. I remember having some interesting characters but quite frankly suboptimal around in some of my games in Pillars I ; they would often get in harm’s way and thus suffer a great deal of damage. Though I might have successfully kept them alive through Endurance, their Health more or less force me into resting for just one or two character(s) without my resources being depleted in the first place under the form of spells, abilities, etc., because if my Health reaches zero, the character dies. So I had to either rest or risk them one more time or leave them far behind, out of harm’s way, essentially playing with one or two less characters in my team for some encounters because if I did not feel like going back to town to rest or using my last camping supply just yet. With that in mind, I do believe the new system will avoid most or all of the above if you play carefully and avoid most or all injuries.
 

And for those thinking it might be too easy, I would like them to consider the fact that the encounters would be now designed with this approach in mind, that is you have a set amount of resources at your disposal, easily quantifiable, for every encounter, rather than having essentially thrash mobs at which you have to spend the less you can to defeat so you can keep most of your resources for the really hard encounters ahead in any given area or dungeon. In the best case scenario. Because if not, you just spam the rest action, have all your resources, spend them all out in one big swing against one pack of mobs and rest again to live another day.

 

In Pillars II, it looks like the experience will be much more even throughout. Which I find quite respectable.

 

Side note for some comments : I do not think the Endurance/Health is realistic or some kind of simulation, really. A sword in the guts is a sword in the guts. It does not heal back rapidly and you are most likely dead anyway or bleeding to death, in and out, with all your fluids pouring out everywhere in and out of your body and organs in some nasty action of disgusting proportion. You would most likely, best case scenario, be in bed for a long time. So, yeah, if I do understand the point some are trying to make, I do believe it is only a mechanic which tried to accomplish a specific goal, that is to give one more justification for resting at some point down the line. If they really wanted to show the wearing down effect of prolong fighting, I would go the route of Fatigue instead, under the guise of something much more debilitating than simply what we got in Pillars I. But that is just me haha

 

Anyway, that was my two cents ! Peace everybody :p

Edited by Occursus
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Because the health/endurance system was replaced by a health system I think I will not rest very often ... only if  I couldn't avoid an injury or I want a specific bonus (food or resting bonus).

 

In POE2, there is no need to rest for the spells ?...

Edited by Kerozevok
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Because the health/endurance system was replaced by a health system I think I will not rest very often ... only if  I couldn't avoid an injury or I want a specific bonus (food or resting bonus).

 

In POE2, there is no need to rest for the spells ?...

 

 

Spells and abilities alike are currently per encounter. You have a pool of resources which last until you rest, though, boosting the power level of one ability or replenishing half your capacity to cast spells and utilize abilities.

Edited by Occursus
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Just to be clear: I think the new resting system is a lot better (various foods + bonuses instead of supplies -  in combination with maintenance costs over time) - but the health/injury system (which is connected to resting) is not.

 

I also think if you can't understand how endurance/health worked in PoE you might have other problems that are more pressing...

From what I read this was the major complaint about the system: that it wasn't easy to understand. Maybe Taylor's Theorem is not easy to understand, but endurance/health? 

A distich is sufficient to explain this.

 

I admit that, whilst I get the general gist of health/endurance, I am confused about some of the specifics regarding the system. I recall half-way through the latest Pillars playthrough to note how, upon being struck with a dragon breath or landing on a particularly powerful trap, my character not only got knocked out but also saw their health depleted all the way down to a 20% of their maximum in a single strike, and this is something I assumed could not happen since I'd assumed endurance would act as the damage you could actually receive, and health merely as a pool for endurance points - if you got knocked out, you wouldn't take more damage beyond your actual endurance. But that's not the case, and that's not explained too well. I think it's details like these that probably caused the confusion more so than the general gist of it.

 

Likewise another trap I fell into often was assuming "health" spoke about "endurance". I recall using Barring Death's Door the first time assuming it spoke of endurance, i.e. you couldn't be knocked out for the duration of the spell, but on closer examination it merely meant you couldn't *die*. I guess this is because the usual game terminology has made it so that a character's hit-points are usually known as or associated with "health" and so when one reads "health" one usually thinks of what Pillars calls "endurance" instead of what it calls health. I also reckon it's things like these that made the system seem "complicated" or, rather, "confusing" or "unintuitive" to others, assuming it's a common occurence with others (I fully admit that this example is on me, being that I misread the spell and so on).

Edited by algroth

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I like it more than the one in the first game. The thing about games like Baldur's Gate was that unless you were in an area that you very much couldn't rest in all you really needed to do is survive a battle and rest up and there wasn't any real consequence (Barring a trash mob attacked you in a dungeon.). Obsidian has added some challenge here alongside the potential for buffs if need be. Food as I recall wasn't used by many people in the first game and now there's incentive. Barring you're a disaster at management I think this will mesh well with the ship mechanic as well. Resting is no longer a fix all and I think that's just great.

Yes! We have no bananas.

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But if you rest time passes and your ship crew will cost you lots of food/drink and money. It's not the resources you use on the party that make resting expensive.

Would you mind elaborating on this point? Are you saying that while your party is on land and out adventuring, that Resting the party will also trigger some resting cost from the ships crew sitting back in port?

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But if you rest time passes and your ship crew will cost you lots of food/drink and money. It's not the resources you use on the party that make resting expensive.

Would you mind elaborating on this point? Are you saying that while your party is on land and out adventuring, that Resting the party will also trigger some resting cost from the ships crew sitting back in port?
Food is a resource shared by the party and the crew. Every day that passes, the crew eats a certain amiunt of food and they are paid their daily wage. Wasting too much time resting will not only deplete your gold as you pay your crew, but your food (since they gotta eat too). I believe it is one unit of food (any type of food, but some foods have morale bonuses) per crew member per day.
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Food is a resource shared by the party and the crew. Every day that passes, the crew eats a certain amiunt of food and they are paid their daily wage. Wasting too much time resting will not only deplete your gold as you pay your crew, but your food (since they gotta eat too). I believe it is one unit of food (any type of food, but some foods have morale bonuses) per crew member per day.

To confirm, this gold/food daily ration cost occurs even when your party is not even using the boat sailing around?

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Spells and abilities alike are currently per encounter. (...)

 

"Auto-restore HP & MP" just like in J-RPG ...  :blink:

 

For my part, I think the adventure will end with POE1.

 

 

It is a question of taste, I guess. I still strongly advice to at least look into it. The changes might be off-putting for you, especially at first, but I do believe they stroke a really nice balance, here, in the context of a videogame.

 

After all, there is a difference between TRPGs and CRPGs.

 

Edited by Occursus
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Food is a resource shared by the party and the crew. Every day that passes, the crew eats a certain amiunt of food and they are paid their daily wage. Wasting too much time resting will not only deplete your gold as you pay your crew, but your food (since they gotta eat too). I believe it is one unit of food (any type of food, but some foods have morale bonuses) per crew member per day.

To confirm, this gold/food daily ration cost occurs even when your party is not even using the boat sailing around?

Your companions and crew are different beasts. Your companions can come with you, but your crew stays with the ship. The crew is like your hirelings at Caed Nua in PoE1. They just man the ship. Food is time based for them. So, over resting triggers their meal time and daily wages. So, resting a lot will deplete your food resources that you use when you rest and some for your crew at some point during the day. While you also lose some gold to pay your crew the daily wage. Your crew is always on your ship as far as I can tell (in the beta).

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Do we know if food consumption is decreased when at port or landing? Wages should stay the same, but if you're at a viable port or even just a random landing on a remote island the crew should be acquiring food from outside the ship while you're away and not simply eating through the ship supplies, at least if the aim is to be more realistic. But if the intention is to add further constraints and risks to traveling over land or resting a lot when away from the ship that I guess makes sense to just have them consume the same amount regardless of location/status.

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Do we know if food consumption is decreased when at port or landing? Wages should stay the same, but if you're at a viable port or even just a random landing on a remote island the crew should be acquiring food from outside the ship while you're away and not simply eating through the ship supplies, at least if the aim is to be more realistic. But if the intention is to add further constraints and risks to traveling over land or resting a lot when away from the ship that I guess makes sense to just have them consume the same amount regardless of location/status.

Pretty sure (99.9% that is) the crew still consumes food from your inventory regardless of whether they are docked at port or on the high sea.

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Heya all! So far I think the resting system in Deadfire is far superior than the one in Pillars. Let me explain, The resting system in the first one caused so much unnecessary downtime, and boredom. It's one thing to leave a dungeon every once in a while, but it is another thing to buy camping supplies just to refresh spell costs.  

 

This wouldn't have bothered me as much, if the system was like Baldur's Gate 1. In Baldur's Gate 1 you didn't need to leave a dungeon just to buy supplies; just so you can refresh spell costs. You had infinite rests, and could rest wherever; granted you were afar from combat.

 

Finally, I applaud them for reworking the whole health and endurance system. I felt that the original system was not as engaging as it should've been. the original system felt more like micromanaging two inconsequential bars, that didn't lead anywhere. I feel the injury system with the permadeath is far more engaging and interesting than the original one.

 

Anyways that's just my opinion so far, though do take this with a grain of salt. I myself haven't actually played the beta; only watched videos of it.

Edited by DragonWiz
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Weird that the ships crew would eat and get paid more than once a day just because the "away team" is, but whatever. :shrugz:

Erm... what?

 

They consume food and money on a daily basis. When you rest for 8 hours that's 8 hours without looting, adventuring and so on --> 8 hours with zero income.

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