Our Real Perception of Naval Battles

[theBalthazar]

Hello Guys,

 

Today, I would like to know the real propensity of differents opinions of naval battles. (Textual phase before docking).

 

Eventually, we can discuss here what could be improved or not.

 

Josh recently said that it excited a lot of people, but I would like to validate this assertion. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I have the impression that this is not totally the case by many post that I saw on this forum.

 

I admit that I also do this topic because I have the impression that Obsidian will not change the current system, so our impressions are now even more important.

 

Actually I am in the mood of : Wait and see the full game. But honestly, if there is no change, I think totally ignore this part of the game.

 

This topic works in addition to this one :

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95874-ship-to-ship-combat/

Edited February 25, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Wormerine]

I am on the stage: “I don’t have enough info, to know how I feel about it”. I don’t feel it needs more to fulfill its intended role. As it turns out different positioning gives you various advantages, disadvantages, different cannons have different strenght and weaknesses. I made a playthrough with the knowledge from the last stream and I found ship combat satisfying, however, it was based on a assumption that my decisions mean something, without much feedback from a game. I can imagine, how a more varied mix of cannons and ships could lead to a more interesting gameplay, but for now, we haven’t seen it in game.

 

What I would like the most to see is better feedback during combat:

 

1) how is damage calculated (not chance to hit, but chance to hit crew, hull, sails - is it %33 for each? Depends on cannon?).

 

2) How do special events happen? What is a chance of them occurring?

 

3) most importantly: what are your ship stats and how they get affected by your positioning/movement - your defence difference between bow/stern and port/starboard side, how much defence you gain by doing a move.

 

4) explain dice roll, which decided who starts the round ingame. Have it visible (with chances to win) will be more satisfying and clear than starting round 1st or 2nd without any explanation. Hell, I don’t know how it’s calculated, but you could even make it an actual dice roll to fit the PnP feel (who rolls more, bonus captain level gives you extra points).

 

Most important of all, two major feature don’t really work right now - jibe is simply a win manouver allowing you to bombard your enemy without a break, and not having to risk “raking hit” by facing enemy with bow/stern. And full sail doesn’t work - it doesn’t give you movement nor defence, which seem like a primary source of dodging enemy fire. This is a real obstacle in testing the system.

[Kirschkern]

I think we should wait for the next backer beta to get a feel for the system. What we can play right now is not finished or representative of the final ship combat.

[Wormerine]

I think we should wait for the next backer beta to get a feel for the system. What we can play right now is not finished or representative of the final ship combat.

It's beta. Nothing we play is finished or representative of the final product.

[swamp_slug]

I like the system, it seems like it could be fun but there are too many bugs/problems with the current version of the system for me to vote anything more than "middle" at the moment, many of which were apparent and or mentioned in Zotbot's stream with Josh.

 

Hopefully the next beta update will address at least some of these issues and we can get a better idea of the system's potential.

[theBalthazar]

Interresting ! Finally, there is a big 50 / 50. I am very surprised.

 

6 for, 6 against, and a big part of indecision (9) or intermediate posture.

 

Furthermore, among those who do not like, they do not like it at all.

[MaxQuest]

I was very excited about naval combat feature.

Didn't expect that it gonna be text-based, so that came as surprise; but generally am ok with that and so far rating my perception/experience as "middle".

 

As this feature will get more worked on, will for sure rate it higher, but at the moment there are a few (probably subjective) rough moments:

• Manoeuvre options are a bit confusing. I still don't quite understand why would I use Full Speed instead of Half Sail.
• I also don't understand how does distance calculation work, see: image. I would expect end-result to be 0 or 25.
• Manoeuvre options have no tooltips. I understand that it's my own problem of having to google what port and starboard mean, because I knew the terms in Russian and Dutch but not in English But it would be nice to see their definitions on mouseover. For example I thought that "turn to port" means turn in the direction of the port I started sailing from ^^
• Load Game doesn't work during boarding combat
• If I understood right, jibe in the game is used as a simple "turn 180 degrees" move; as there is no wind power/direction indicator; plus you can't zig-zag at more acute angles than 90.
• At the moment scripted combat comes mostly to: (half-sail)x(as many times as required) -> start combat
• I don't quite see what fine tactics there are to employ. There were two similar games... I loved a big lot, called Corsairs: The Return of the Legend and Sea Dogs:City of Abandoned Ships, and one of the most used 1x1 tactics I used (vs a mightier opponent) was: manoeuvre at max distance against an enemy ship, such that he's rear is looking at you, while you are zig-zaging and shooting from both sides of the ships with chain-shot. Once he's manoeuvrability is severely decreased (and the ship is in "sitting duck" position) switch to canister-shot, and deal up with his on-deck crew. Once this is done, rapidly full sail from his back to abordage (boarding).
• Another interesting tactic was when going vs several ships at once, for example: 1 mighty and several light ones. Firing one chain-shot vs the strongest ship, and then full-sailing in winds direction. Reloading regular cannonballs (good vs hulls) and via jibbing in zig-zag motion annihilating the persecutors from cannons from both sides. All while counting the time between their reloads and showing them my ship's rear with a temporary brought down sails right at the moment when they fire. (in order to minimize their hit chance); and immediately full-sailing again. And once they hit the bottom of the sea, use the previous tactic vs that 1 might ship left. And the thing is: it was fun!)

And now there could also be additional motivation and consequences.

Motivation - as "why do I want to attack them in the first place?":

- because they have good cargo and I could sell that for profit; or there are rare ingredients for alchemy/enchanting/explosives.

- because they have nice ship and I would like to take it for myself, or add it to my armada (if possible)

- because I heard a rumor that a captain X on a ship Y has a nice A (unique sabre, hat, etc). Especially if the difficulty is high but you could get something ahead of the curve (e.g. exceptional unique before lvl 8

- because the barmen at the inn told me (thanks to bluff/streetwise/coin/reputation/etc) that merchant X is going on isle Y and is going to deliver cargo of Z to a local store there. So you board, find and seize his ship, and either sell his cargo at some black market for half the price, or sail to that store and try to impersonate that merchant. Use bluff, rename the ship, whatever.

 

And consequences, simply put:

- if you sail under flag A and attack ships of faction B; B gets a bit angry on A in general, and very angry at you in particular.

- also if we find a Pirate flag we could use that, in which case there is no faction reputation penalty, at least until your personal fame is not big enough.

- very angry faction could hire head-hunters/warships to hunt you down. Stuff like that.

 

TL.DR. Find current naval battles as "middle" (mildly satisfying), probably because had overly-high expectations, but see a nice potential if this feature will get polished and expanded.

Edited February 25, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Wormerine]

 

• Manoeuvre options are a bit confusing. I still don't quite understand why would I use Full Speed instead of Half Sail.

Full sail is currently broken. Right now full sail and half sail are the same - they give you same evasion and half of main speed. Full sail should give you a full move and more evasion, and its your primary "evasion" move before your enemy attacks.

• I also don't understand how does distance calculation work, see: image. I would expect end-result to be 0 or 25.

Tooltips are broken as well Both seem to give you half sail move (50% of full speed). Your ship's full speed is 100m + 20m if you start with an advantage: a dice roll at the start of each round. 50-50 if captains are on the same captain level. Captain with an advantage starts first and receives bonuses.

• Manoeuvre options have no tooltips. I understand that it's my own problem of having to google what port and starboard mean, because I knew the terms in Russian and Dutch but not in English But it would be nice to see their definitions on mouseover. For example I thought that "turn to port" means turn in the direction of the port I started sailing from ^^

Hover over icon, not text.

• Load Game doesn't work during boarding combat

Yes! Super annoying. Had to ALT-f4 after taking above screenshot:-).

• If I understood right, jibe in the game is used as a simple "turn 180 degrees" move; as there is no wind power/direction indicator; plus you can't zig-zag at more acute angles than 90.

Josh stated somewhere, that they experimented with wind mechanic but didn't work, so they got rid if it all together. Jibe is too useful right now, and there will be some downside to using it. </p>

Edited February 25, 2018 by Wormerine

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I wanted to fight a kraken so my opinion will be negative until I know that can happen.

[Nanawatzin]

I wanted to fight a kraken so my opinion will be negative until I know that can happen.

 

I guess it won't be possible for now... as far as I remember, the goal with sea monsters wasn't reach during the campaign - *insert very sad face* - which is really sad, especially 'cause in PoE you were able to find a book about sea creatures living in Archipelago and when they announced the game to take place in that region I was like "Yassss qween! My sweet sea monsters are going to be real!". But yeah... I have to be satisfied with Tekehu. :D (which is not bad at all)

Edited February 25, 2018 by Nanawatzin

[blotter]

I guess it won't be possible for now... as far as I remember, the goal with sea monsters wasn't reach during the campaign

The ambiguity surrounding that stretch goal and its promotion is one of the things that annoyed me most about the campaign; some sources definitely make it sound like the presence of sea monsters in the game depended entirely on the goal being met, but there are others that contradict this. For example:

1. The update itself listed, with the exception of the polpovir, monsters that weren't included in the "Monsters of the Deadfire" book and it ends with the following statement: "With this stretch goal we will add fishing and new sea monsters that you may encounter while sailing on the seas around Deadfire!" Note that they said new sea monsters, which could imply that there is a range of sea monsters already in the game to expand upon (given that they already have models and animations for kraken courtesy of the White March expansions, for example, I don't see why they wouldn't throw in one or two).
2. In Q&A 4, Sawyer confirmed that we'd be encountering sea monsters in the game, stating that they are "sort of like the thing for the Deadfire". His response didn't mention their presence being contingent on reaching a stretch goal. To be fair, though, the Sea Monsters stretch goal itself wasn't announced until the next day (edit: two days later, actually).

Edited February 25, 2018 by blotter

[anfoglia]

I don't know how to evaluate the ship encounters until I know how they fit into the broader sailing system. The updates Josh has discussed (removing the full sail/half sail distinction, tweaking jibe, adding options to flee or "close to board") all seem like positive steps. But supposing you actually want to try trading volleys, it doesn't seem like the framework supports fun, tactical battles. It needs another dimension or two. Maybe that comes in when you can actually select cannons and crew members. Idk. I can see a bit of the FTL influence in how you order crew members to report to different stations, but I can't say it feels all that fun yet. FTL had a fair amount more going on in a given battle (targeting different areas, boarding as a part of the general combat flow rather than the end of the encounter, repairing, managing airlocks, et al.).*

 

*I understand FTL's influence was on the report function, but I think it's worth looking at the fact that FTL had a simpler supply system than Deadfire. It's not clear from the Beta what Deadfire is getting out of water, food, medicine, and repair rather than a consolidated "supplies" category and then separate, more tailored mechanics for healing crew members and repairing the ship.

[wahmann1]

I was very excited about naval combat feature.

Didn't expect that it gonna be text-based, so that came as surprise; but generally am ok with that and so far rating my perception/experience as "middle".

 

As this feature will get more worked on, will for sure rate it higher, but at the moment there are a few (probably subjective) rough moments:

• Manoeuvre options are a bit confusing. I still don't quite understand why would I use Full Speed instead of Half Sail.
• I also don't understand how does distance calculation work, see: image. I would expect end-result to be 0 or 25.
• Manoeuvre options have no tooltips. I understand that it's my own problem of having to google what port and starboard mean, because I knew the terms in Russian and Dutch but not in English But it would be nice to see their definitions on mouseover. For example I thought that "turn to port" means turn in the direction of the port I started sailing from ^^
• Load Game doesn't work during boarding combat
• If I understood right, jibe in the game is used as a simple "turn 180 degrees" move; as there is no wind power/direction indicator; plus you can't zig-zag at more acute angles than 90.
• At the moment scripted combat comes mostly to: (half-sail)x(as many times as required) -> start combat
• I don't quite see what fine tactics there are to employ. There were two similar games... I loved a big lot, called Corsairs: The Return of the Legend and Sea Dogs:City of Abandoned Ships, and one of the most used 1x1 tactics I used (vs a mightier opponent) was: manoeuvre at max distance against an enemy ship, such that he's rear is looking at you, while you are zig-zaging and shooting from both sides of the ships with chain-shot. Once he's manoeuvrability is severely decreased (and the ship is in "sitting duck" position) switch to canister-shot, and deal up with his on-deck crew. Once this is done, rapidly full sail from his back to abordage (boarding).
• Another interesting tactic was when going vs several ships at once, for example: 1 mighty and several light ones. Firing one chain-shot vs the strongest ship, and then full-sailing in winds direction. Reloading regular cannonballs (good vs hulls) and via jibbing in zig-zag motion annihilating the persecutors from cannons from both sides. All while counting the time between their reloads and showing them my ship's rear with a temporary brought down sails right at the moment when they fire. (in order to minimize their hit chance); and immediately full-sailing again. And once they hit the bottom of the sea, use the previous tactic vs that 1 might ship left. And the thing is: it was fun!)

And now there could also be additional motivation and consequences.

Motivation - as "why do I want to attack them in the first place?":

- because they have good cargo and I could sell that for profit; or there are rare ingredients for alchemy/enchanting/explosives.

- because they have nice ship and I would like to take it for myself, or add it to my armada (if possible)

- because I heard a rumor that a captain X on a ship Y has a nice A (unique sabre, hat, etc). Especially if the difficulty is high but you could get something ahead of the curve (e.g. exceptional unique before lvl 8

- because the barmen at the inn told me (thanks to bluff/streetwise/coin/reputation/etc) that merchant X is going on isle Y and is going to deliver cargo of Z to a local store there. So you board, find and seize his ship, and either sell his cargo at some black market for half the price, or sail to that store and try to impersonate that merchant. Use bluff, rename the ship, whatever.

 

And consequences, simply put:

- if you sail under flag A and attack ships of faction B; B gets a bit angry on A in general, and very angry at you in particular.

- also if we find a Pirate flag we could use that, in which case there is no faction reputation penalty, at least until your personal fame is not big enough.

- very angry faction could hire head-hunters/warships to hunt you down. Stuff like that.

 

TL.DR. Find current naval battles as "middle" (mildly satisfying), probably because had overly-high expectations, but see a nice potential if this feature will get polished and expanded.

 

I love the suggestions. With respect to the confusion regarding commands, I think adding a parenthetical string that varies depending upon the situation might be nice. Like this:

 

Half Sail! (Kite with Loaded (or Unloaded) Port (or Starboard) Cannon Broadside/Move Toward/Move Away)

Hold Position! (Prepare to Fire Port (or Starboard) Cannon/Skip Turn)

Turn to Port! (Expose Broadside with Loaded (or Unloaded) Port (or Starboard) Cannon/Prepare to Close/Prepare to Flee)

Turn to Starboard! (Expose Broadside with Loaded (or Unloaded) Starboard (or Port) Cannon/Prepare to Close/Prepare to Flee)

Prepare to Jibe! (Expose Broadside with Loaded (or Unloaded) Cannon/Prepare to Close/Prepare to Flee)

Report to... (Reassign Crew/Repair Sails/Repair Hull/Get Wounded to Surgeon/Crew Unmanned Station/...))--you can say what needs to be done, if anything

[Boeroer]

I have zero interest. At least in the form it's implemented at the moment. I don't mind that it's in the game and maybe I'll come around once there's something to gain (loot, new crew members, ship's and so on), but at the moment it's unappealing to me.

 

It would have been different if they really took inspiration from FTL and implemented real time combat with pause (like FTL and PoE/Deadfire are). The ship interface is fine though. Needs a tutorial!

 

While I generally like the scripted interactions during adventuring they don't appeal to me in this crude mixture with turn based combat. It's too much Pen & Paper style and not enough video game for me.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Boeroer

[DozingDragon]

In the current beta, literally every combat plays the same way.  So it is hard to gauge just how fun of a system this will be, where we cannot modify our crew, our ship's equipment, or even choose which ship to use.  Similarly, the tactical depth just appears to be around distance and positioning, which, kind of just seems a little dull.  I mean, I get it, pirates, ships, but why not throw in some more elements that bring out the flavor of the setting.  Right now, you can go up against a Vithrack captain in the beta, but he(?) functions exactly like every other captain.  

 

Bounties in PoE were fun because they were hand-designed and each one was unique.  Same thing with nearly every scripted sequence.  Here, naval combat seems to function a lot like a generic scripted sequence, except without the benefit of being able to use special abilities where appropriate. If anything, the current system reminds me a lot of the incredibly basic "adventures" you could send your companions on from Caed Nua prior to 3.0.  While the system here is definitely more developed, as it stands the pre-3.0 adventures and naval combat are equally interesting from a thematic perspective, as neither presents any clever hooks or meaningful stakes beyond loot and experience.