Assorted, consolidated feedback on the Deadfire beta

[AndreaColombo]

Hello.

 

This thread is meant to be a comprehensive collection of feedback on what appear to be the most prominent issues with Deadfire's mechanics as gathered from several other discussions.

 

The latest beta update has left me in a bitter mood with regards to the status of the game, as many of the concerns backers brought up since the first build do not appear to have been addressed at all; whereas other changes have been made that have honestly taken the fun away for me (appreciate YMMV.)

 

These are the areas I believe should improve for the game's mechanics to be good and combat to be fun.

 

 

UI should be more informative.

 

As discussed here and here, as well as here (among other places.)

 

Not only is the UI providing partial information about most things—what information it provides is too generic.

 

Where are the hard numbers? Where’s the actual gameplay impact of things so that players can plan ahead and/or calculate their DPS and spike damage?

 

It doesn’t help that one key piece of information Deadfire added, the damage calculation breakdown, has been broken since day one (link.)

 

 

Stacking rules are inconsistent and counter-intuitive.

 

As discussed here, here, and here.

 

Good stacking rules are intuitive and make synergies immediately evident—the opposite of what presently happens in Deadfire. It should be as simple as same source = suppresses; different source = stacks.

 

It doesn’t help that the UI doesn’t provide any information at all as to what stacks and what doesn’t, to add to the previous point.

 

 

Power Level is inconsistently applied and obscure.

 

As discussed here and here (among other places.)

 

Different abilities benefit from Power Levels very differently; the UI doesn’t communicate this in any way, so players can’t know in advance.

 

End result:

• Empower is bonkers for some abilities and useless for others, unbeknownst to players who may as well waste a use of Empower on something that doesn’t really benefit from it.
• Power Level, which is supposed to give an edge to single classes vs. multi classes by design, isn’t really doing its job in that department.
• Most people have a hard time understanding what Power Level even is or why it should be there at all (link.)

Power Level should be consistent in its effects on spells and abilities, and it should make a substantial difference between single- and multi-classed characters.

 

 

Weapon balance is inconsistent.

 

KDubya’s been doing comparisons since the first beta. The latest can be found here:

 

Melee

 

Ranged

 

As shown, there are a number of inconsistencies leading to some weapons being clearly inferior to all other choices in the same category.

 

 

Weapon modals are too extreme.

 

As discussed here.

 

Most weapon modals are so extreme in their effects that you’d never want to use them.

 

Take the Great Sword: The Accuracy penalty is so vast that it can only be used against foes who are lower level than you. But if my foes are lower level, I don’t need an extra 50% damage to deal with them—I can make quick work of them already. So what is this modal good for? Nothing.

 

As evidenced in this previously mentioned thread, modals also have a problem with stacking rules (and UI information.)

 

 

Casting times are too long (and inconsistent to boot.)

 

As discussed at length in this thread.

 

This post focuses on inconsistency.

 

This post offers solutions.

 

Summoned weapons should have 0.5s casting time and 0.0s recovery time. Anything longer than that and attacking with your regular, non-summoned weapon is the most efficient choice. It doesn’t help that summoned weapons are underwhelming compared to their PoE counterparts (Firebrand doesn’t even have a fire lash? Really?)

 

Other spells also take way too long. Latest beta removed 1s from casting and added it to recovery, which is a bad joke. It did nothing to solve the problem and just made self-buffs worse, as now you spend 1 extra second of their duration in recovery (+ any penalty to recovery you might have.)

 

 

Ciphers are bad (especially single-classed.)

 

As discussed here.

 

Their powers are underwhelming and have far too long cast and recovery times; the STR/RES split made them the neediest class of all in terms of stats. ANY other class is more efficient and more powerful than Ciphers right now, and for multiclass combinations only the Soul Blade is desirable as you’re going to dump all focus into Soul Annihilation anyway.

 

 

Miscellaneous.

 

I’ve always been very supportive of Obsidian and the Pillars development team, and I still am. I know there’s a lot of work and the team’s relatively small, and I loathe to come across as whiny or entitled (which I reckon I have in the past couple of days, and for that I apologize.)

 

However I’m sure you’ll see where it can be frustrating that none of this early UI feedback has made it in yet, or that a bug this serious hasn’t been addressed since the first beta build (this issue contributes to the cascading crits issue with Swift Flurry and Cleaving Stance.)

 

Even the inverted bar under the hair style selection at character creation has been there since day one. A minor thing, but also an annoying bug that you can’t not run into and 100% of players will experience. Or the missing elbow piece on female model plate armor, reported since the first beta and still an issue.

 

Instead, changes were made to the UI for the worse as discussed here (and in subsequent posts.) Why spend time on that and not on one of the QoL improvements that beta backers requested since the very beginning? (Honest question; not rhetorical.)

 

One last pain point for me, besides the fact that most beard styles look patchy like a porcupine with alopecia (I used to think they were temporary but this is the third beta build and they’re still unchanged), is how everything's been made slow.

 

Not only is recovery a lot longer than in PoE; the attack speed system has been changed so that 0 recovery builds are impossible and recovery penalties weigh more than stacked bonuses. Everybody’s now forced to sit through lengthy recovery times. People who like fast-paced aggro are out of luck unless they wanna use Fast Mode, which is unchanged from PoE and looks like Benny Hill Show; way too fast for combat. I liked Normal mode in PoE and currently there’s nothing in Deadfire that compares. I also don’t like sitting through recovery; it’s boring to stare at my men do nothing and it makes me feel like my characters are weak. Why should there be no option for me to speed it up in a significant manner without openly gimping myself (e.g. by wearing no armor to avoid the penalty)?

Edited February 4, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[IndiraLightfoot]

I'd love to see armour and penetration looked at a bit more as well. It's been improved, but high penetration is still king, and speaking of king, it seems a no-brainer to give almost any kind of character heavy armour now, given the slower recovery and the still slow spellcasting.

 

Oh, I almost forgot - related to UI feedback somewhat: The way for us players to relatively easy understand and estimate how much damage we're going to do is almost closed, unless we have at least a Maths Master Degree, and this goes for a few other game system calculations as well. MaxQuest has been really helpful shining a light on this, but light doesn't make them transparent. I reckon, some simplification and super-good in-game UI feedback is in order (even in-combat?).

The new and armour penetration system has one thing going for it - it's actually simple and easy to follow in itself, with simple, low integers, but otherwise, we're stuck with all these percentages. Are they additive, multiplicative, or just darn too darn confusing?

Sometimes, it is so complex that I get the feeling that not even (all) the devs know how it works. Example:

 

"Armor Recovery Penalty changed across all three armor types

• Heavy Armor changed  from 67% to -38%
• Medium Armor changed  from -82% to -45%
• Light Armor changed from -50% to -30%"

From the latest beta patch update. What the...?

 

Or the by the devs often mixed up %-duration and %-speed, see this thread:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95813-few-ranged-weapon-typesmodals-bugs/

Edited February 4, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[IndiraLightfoot]

In reality, calculating the armour and merely its changes in this latest beta compared to earlier looks like this:

 

 

 

Armor Recovery Penalty changed across all three armor types

• Heavy Armor changed  from 67% to -38%
• Medium Armor changed  from -82% to -45%
• Light Armor changed from -50% to -30%

Something wrong here?

 

Definitely, but Aarik also added the following under the spoiler:

• Armored Grace has had its effect halved, because of how Armor Speed factor functions, this equates roughly to the following:
  • With Heavy Armor: Was -67% of Armor Recovery Penalty, is now -38% reduced penalty
  • With Medium Armor: Was -82% of Armor Recovery Penalty, is now – 45% reduced penalty
  • With Light Armor: Was -100% of Armor Recovery Penalty, is now -65% reduced penalty

 

So what they meant is that Armored Grace value was nerfed from 0.20 to 0.10.
Or to be more exact, it goes like this:

Base values:
- Heavy Armor : x0.645 Recovery Speed (same as +55% Recovery Time)
- Medium Armor: x0.740 Recovery Speed (same as +35% Recovery Time)
- Light Armor : x0.833 Recovery Speed (same as +20% Recovery Time)

Beta 2: Armored Grace was adding +0.2 Recovery Speed back:
- Heavy Armor  (with AG): x0.845 Recovery Speed (or +18% Recovery Time) ((55-18) / 55 = 0.67 -> AG removed 67% of Armor Recovery Penalty)
- Medium Armor (with AG): x0.940 Recovery Speed (or  +6% Recovery Time) ((35- 6) / 35 = 0.82 -> AG removed 82% of Armor Recovery Penalty)
- Light Armor  (with AG): x1.000 Recovery Speed (or   0% Recovery Time) ((20- 0) / 20 = 1.00 -> AG removed 100% of Armor Recovery Penalty)

Beta 3: Armored Grace is adding +0.1 Recovery Speed back:
- Heavy Armor  (with AG): x0.745 Recovery Speed (or +34% Recovery Time) ((55-34) / 55 = 0.38 -> AG removed 38% of Armor Recovery Penalty)
- Medium Armor (with AG): x0.840 Recovery Speed (or +19% Recovery Time) ((35-19) / 35~= 0.45 -> AG removed 45% of Armor Recovery Penalty)
- Light Armor  (with AG): x0.933 Recovery Speed (or  +7% Recovery Time) ((20- 7) / 20 = 0.65 -> AG removed 65% of Armor Recovery Penalty)

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I came into this thread looking to nitpick and I can't really, that looks like an excellent summary.

 

 

Im not 100% sold on the attack speed calculator changes being a huge issue, but mostly because I feel like there are so many other moving parts we don't have yet that it's hard to judge.

 

Similarly, the penetration system might need looking at, but that's secondary to & part of things like getting the weapons and weapon modals sorted out.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[IndiraLightfoot]

I still remain optimistic, though, provided that they prioritize wisely up until launch (== stuff mentioned in this thread!   ).

 

In PoE1, I always used slow mode, and I still agree with AndreaColombo 100% about the need for fun and flow in combat. I'd much rather have the faster recovery time back (with less idling) than this current system, as long as we get a slow mode, pretty please.

 

I do believe that the combat systems can be simplified. Start off by removing the percentages, and simplify how damage gets calculated. Simplify stacking too.

Optional combat info/stat feedback in the game needs to be there, plus all the necessary stuff for weapons and attributes when making our characters and levelling them up.

I'd also rather have sucky ship combat (To me it's just some icing on the cake). Instead, give me the stuff suggested in this thread.

 

This can be done. I believe in you, Obsidian! If you do fix this things, you may very well have created a true CRPG masterpiece for eons to come. Why aim for less, now that you're so close to hit an out-of-the-ballpark home run?

Edited February 4, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[dunehunter]

It’s true that the recovery time is a bit too long now. As Boeroer said, it’s funny that crossbow reloading time can be faster than the recovery time of swing a sword, it’s just unrealistic...

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yup! For arbalests and similar weapons, the reloading should be the slowest, but that should be compensated with some pretty juicy damage, and even juicier crits:

Crossbow bolts can penetrate human skulls, as has been proven by plenty of finds. 

[Enduin]

Great write up and I agree with pretty much all your suggestions and sentiments. I feel like they're on the right track, but there are a few elements that need to be rethought and tweaked a good deal, while most others just need to find that proper balance, which isn't any small task either. I think one of the issues is that the interconnectedness of so much of the combat means that "fixing" or tweaking one area can have large ripple effects elsewhere. Reduce recovery on one area or stats of one weapon set and all of a sudden you've broken or nerfect something other there. So I hope they've already gotten their head around things, or at least are on that path towards that.

 

I will say as much as I agree with the general points of the Miscellaneous section we have to acknowledge that this Beta is most likely an isolated fork of the main build and a drain on Obsidian's time and resources to update and work on. Some bugs, features and the like just aren't worth their time and possible large effort to fix and implement. So for me it's more about the core gameplay mechanics than some UI/QoL features being added or some non-game breaking bugs being fixed. Even with regards to core gameplay Josh's tweet showing the expanded Passive Skills shows the Beta lags a good deal behind the main dev branch even on that front.

 

So I think it's important to continue to give feedback, suggestions and input on all areas, but also be a bit more tempered in our expectations of what we'll actually see get added or changed in the Beta build. Just because we haven't seen it change here in the Beta doesn't mean that hasn't been changed or added in the main build or a test build. I try and take a look at the overall trajectory instead worrying about exact details. Are we heading in the right direction rather than are we on this exact route.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

I will say as much as I agree with the general points of the Miscellaneous section we have to acknowledge that this Beta is most likely an isolated fork of the main build and a drain on Obsidian's time and resources to update and work on. Some bugs, features and the like just aren't worth their time and possible large effort to fix and implement. So for me it's more about the core gameplay mechanics than some UI/QoL features being added or some non-game breaking bugs being fixed. Even with regards to core gameplay Josh's tweet showing the expanded Passive Skills shows the Beta lags a good deal behind the main dev branch even on that front.

 

 

 

Yeah this is an important point. I hope the UI will get one more solid pass and revision before release, but I don't expect granular UI updates while everything is still in flux.

[MaxQuest]

As Boeroer said, it’s funny that crossbow reloading time can be faster than the recovery time of swing a sword, it’s just unrealistic...

Not any longer. Beta 3 has stealthy changed the reloading durations as well.

Check the 2nd part of this post, for more info.

 

Edit: as for starting post:

- agreed on UI (tooltips!)

- agreed on stacking rules

- agreed on power level

- agreed on weapon balance (as still trying to figure why would I take pike over quarterstaff, warhammer over stilleto, or flail over club)

- agreed on casting times

- agreed on (non-soulblade) ciphers (especially single-class)

Edited February 4, 2018 by MaxQuest

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I agree with most. I've been particularly thinking about MaxQuest's recommendations for casts lately, so thanks for pointing to the thread where this beauty was posted.

[dunehunter]

 

As Boeroer said, it’s funny that crossbow reloading time can be faster than the recovery time of swing a sword, it’s just unrealistic...

Not any longer. Beta 3 has stealthy changed the reloading durations as well.

Check the 2nd part of this post, for more info.

 

Edit: as for starting post:

- agreed on UI (tooltips!)

- agreed on stacking rules

- agreed on power level

- agreed on weapon balance (as still trying to figure why would I take pike over quarterstaff, warhammer over stilleto, or flail over club)

- agreed on casting times

- agreed on (non-soulblade) ciphers (especially single-class)

Still, if u are wearing heavy armor like plate armor, and swinging a two handed sword, your recovery time is very close to the reload time of crossbow, this is not changed. And is really weird setting.

[NerdCommando]

To add another small but annoying inconsistency with weapon specializations - for Great Sword and its Savage Attack, the +50% damage modifier is just basic damage bonus. For lvl 5 pure fighter with 2-handed style, 19 strength and fine greatsword, the damage goes from 36-45 to 50-62. That's +38%, actually.

 

Meaning that the more other passive bonuses you get, the worse it becomes and, since the malus here is a scaling one, eventually this skill will be bringing more harm than help (which is why savage attack was a horrible  choice in the first part of the game - the -5 accuracy was not big enough to put you into negative zones, but in most cases it didn't add enough to justify spending a feat on it).

 

On the other hand, the theoretically similar -50% maluses on Morningstar's Body Blows and Pike's Exposing Strikes work in the other way - they act as an actual 0.5 multiplier. Or even more than that as those  25-36 and  36-45 turn into 11-16 (56% loss) and 16-20 (56% loss as well). 

 

And, to be sure, I've even run the test on the lvl 5 fighter/cipher with 2-handed style, 19 strength, fine weapon quality and cipher's 40% extra dmg. 

 

Great Sword: 48-58 basic, 61-75 Savage Attack (29% of actual increase - given that -20 accuracy is, like, 40% malus, the resulting damage is 129%x0.6=77.4%)

Morningstar:  32-48 basic, 15-21 Body Blows (still 55% of loss - yeah, this totally blows)

Pike: 48-58 basic, 21-26 Exposing Strikes (guess what - same 55%)

 

Needless to say that the methods of penalizing and rewarding here should be similar, otherwise it just makes no sense.

[MaxQuest]

Still, if u are wearing heavy armor like plate armor, and swinging a two handed sword, your recovery time is very close to the reload time of crossbow, this is not changed. And is really weird setting.

Actually you are right.

Current crossbow reloading duration is 6.1s

Current sword (+ shield/nothing in offhand) recovery is 6.2s when in plate armor (=4*1.55)

Edited February 4, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Enduin]

Weapon Proficiencies/Modals are kind of bonkers in their current state. We will have a total of 8 of them by lvl 19, save for Devoted. That's beyond excessive given the current setup we have, not even taking into account the actual usefulness of the Modals themselves which is quite dubious and potential stacking conflicts. I feel like it would be way more beneficial if each Proficiency had Ranks to it rather than being a one off. Each rank could improve the effectiveness of the Modal it provides, the current Modals could stay as they are for Rank 1, but each subsequent Rank would decrease the Malus associated with it by X%. 

 

Windmill Slash at Rank 1 would be +100% Recovery Time with +2 Pen, but at Rank 3 it would only be like +50% Recovery Time. Or something like that. Few character builds will ever need to be proficient in 8 different weapons, more like 3 or 4. So why not make spending those later points mean something and not just have us picking random weapons we'll probably never use just because we have to. By level 7 in the Beta I was already just choosing a random weapon as 3 was really all any character in my party needed.

 

You wouldn't even need to alter the current progression of every 3 levels or allotment of points. 8 Points would allow characters to max out two weapons and 2/3 of a third, or hit Rank 2 on 4, or 8 at Rank 1 if they're really weird.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Enduin

[IndiraLightfoot]

I know. What is it with this excess of weapon proficiency? Personally, I'd like to see half of them, tops!

I'd rather that the other half would result in my skill points perhaps, or even better 3-4 or more passives, I mean the game's supposed to be fun no?

I don't have a need for a character that knows 8 different weapons proficently. Already by level 8 or so, I'm starting picking Medium Shield just for the heck of it.

It's like an unwanted dilution of the weapon proficiency concept.

Edited February 4, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[theBalthazar]

Why not Proficiency points replacing useless +1 proficiency ?

 

And One weapon = 3 levels of proficiency possible. So, three points for the max.

 

1/3) Actual situation (New proficiency)

 

2/3) Down the malus (Upgrade+1)

 

3/3) Up the bonus (Upgrade+2)

 

Concept of choice. This create ~2-3 real invested proficiency (3+3+2 = 8 pts of proficiency). Widely sufficient and more interresting.

Edited February 4, 2018 by theBalthazar

[vanyel54]

In PoE1, I always used slow mode, and I still agree with AndreaColombo 100% about the need for fun and flow in combat. I'd much rather have the faster recovery time back (with less idling) than this current system, as long as we get a slow mode, pretty please.

 

I totally agree on that. For me it is the priority. I can understand that it is not the one for everyone but in the state the game seems very difficult to play for me.

For the rest i agree with all your points.

 

The problem is that many long-standing issues are still not settled. Hence the frustration and anger of some.

It would be productive for the obsidian to have a better communication on this beta. They could for example communicate on the points raised by the community. 

Currently we do not know if these points were heard, if they are processed etc ...

[IndiraLightfoot]

Another feedback that perhaps is premature and thus not relevant, if our backer beta patches here are older and heavily trimmed than the current state of Deadfire, is passive abilities and the lack of them for certain classes. Far too often than not, I feel like I have two or three to choose from (due to power level restraints).

 

Levelling up should be a pretty important occasion. Rather than we get to pick our umpteenth weapon proficiency, I'd like to see a few more passives for most classes. And some of them feels so starved and unvaried. I mean, just take a look at the Mage class: n o t h i n g   b u t   s p e l l s   .  .  . 

 

Will there be more passives? I've some vague memory of more being on their way.

Edited February 4, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Oh, actually, two more things :

 

1) feedback on the AI system. Overall it's great but it could use some tweaks: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95275-lets-gather-feedback-for-ai-customization-here/page-2

 

2) feedback On A Boat : https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95874-ship-to-ship-combat/ mostly seems like the community is still working out its opinions here

[dunehunter]

Maybe the dev's plan is to first reach the balance between weapons and spells, and then cut all times by half! We will see!

[MaxQuest]

Btw, how do you guys feel about the new weapon recovery values?

 

Do you like it? Does it feel too slow? Or this slowliness is even welcome, because there is no Slow Mode?

[IndiraLightfoot]

Like I said in the great feedback thread: I reckon they are too slow, and I want recovery to be faster, but I also want slow mode back, if that makes sense.

[anfoglia]

The pace actually feels good to me now (I sense I'm a bit of an outlier here). Recovery times were closer to "okay, I see that you are in recovery, and I can turn my attention elsewhere for a moment" than "foot-tapping while I wait for you to please god swing your sword again."

 

EDIT: As you can probably guess, I'm a slow mode person. So I would be more than happy with a tradeoff that involved reduced recovery for the return of slow mode.

Edited February 5, 2018 by anfoglia

[Insidous]

I don't like it. While I don't mind the pace of the fights, high recovery means you are not able to react as fast. Can be frustrating so watch your character do nothing for 5 seconds while being rushed at.

 

I would like them to slow down movement speed even more, but revert the recovery changes

Edited February 5, 2018 by Insidous