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Attack/Action Speed Thread

action speed attack speed recovery time reloading duration beta

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#1
MaxQuest

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I've taken a look at how Attack/Action Speed works in Deadfire, and will list the aggregated info in this thread.

First of all here are the main differences between Beta2 and PoE1:
- weapons' recovery duration (on average) was doubled
- but they now have almost halved attacking duration
- reloading weapons no longer have recovery phase at all
- weapons deal damage right at the end of attacking phase (instead of doing that somewhat in the middle of it)
- in PoE1 we could "abuse" Quick Switch and skip recovery of firearms along with reloading. This is not possible in Deadfire even if firearms would still have said recovery.
- many PoE1 "+x% Attack Speed" effects were changed to "+x% Action Speed"
- in PoE1 attack phase duration was influenced only by DEX. In Deadfire everything that states "+x% Action Speed" affects it. This is minor for weapons (since they have really fast attack), but big for spells.
- speed system / formulas / stacking was heavily rewritten
- dexterity bonus is no longer multiplicative with other coefficients. All multipliers are now aggregated in additive manner.
- and maluses go through double inversion (like in current damage calculation) In practice that results in: if you have many bonuses and let's say 1 malus - that malus will have a much greater effect on the final value.
- stacking speed bonuses subject to increasing returns in PoE1; and is subject to diminishing returns in Deadfire.

Notes:
- it looks like reload duration was decided to be left unafected by the armor type.
- Swift Strikes and Frenzy seemed to not affect attack duration in Beta1 (they do in Beta2, and it's now consistent with other "+x% Action Speed" effects, like: potions, bloodlust and dex).


 
Now regarding the formula: 
phase_duration = base_phase_duration / speed_coefficient
where: 
speed_coefficient = steps_sum >= 0 ? steps_sum + 1 : 1 / (1 - steps_sum)
where:
steps_sum = step_1 + step_2 + ... + step_n
where:
step_n = coef_n >= 1 ? coef_n - 1 : 1 - 1 / coef_n
 
And a concrete example. Warbow has:
- 1.1s base attack duration
- 3.0s base recovery duration

Q: What attack/recovery it will have at 20 DEX with overdraw?

> Let's compute attack duration:
- steps_sum = (1.3 - 1) = 0.3
- speed_coef = 1.3 + 1 = 1.3
- attack_duration = 1.1s / 1.3 = 0.846s

> Let's compute recovery duration:
- steps_sum = (1.3 - 1) + (1 - 1 / 2) = 0.3 + -1 = -0.7
- speed_coef = 1 / (1 - -0.7) = 1/1.7 = 0.588
- recovery_duration = 3.0s / 0.588 = 5.1s

Result: at 20 DEX and overdraw, warbow will have:
~ 0.8s attack duration
~ 5.1s recovery duration

 
Btw, ever wondered why:
- plate armor displays: +55% recovery time
- scale armor displays: +35% recovery time
- plate armor with armored grace: +18% recovery time
- scale armor with armored grace: +6% recovery time
? :)

Edited by MaxQuest, 30 January 2018 - 08:14 AM.

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#2
IndiraLightfoot

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This is how I feel after having played PoE1 quite a bit and then reading the insightful MaxQuest's posts:

quote-you-can-never-learn-less-you-can-o


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#3
KaineParker

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I'm a complete brainlet with regards to this math but

- many PoE1 "+x% Attack Speed" effects were changed to "+x% Action Speed"

Is this in regards to Action Speed being different in PoE2 or am I reading this wrong. EDIT: I was reading it wrong. Hangover browsing is not good for reading.

Btw, ever wondered why:
- plate armor displays: +55% recovery time
- scale armor displays: +35% recovery time
- plate armor with armored grace: +18% recovery time
- scale armor with armored grace: +6% recovery time

I do now.

My only other comment is the disproportionate effects Malus has, it seems like an unfair trade and as such abilities with Attack Speed/Recovery Malus will be avoided for being too costly.

Edited by KaineParker, 30 January 2018 - 08:30 AM.


#4
IndiraLightfoot

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And a concrete example. Warbow has:
- 1.1s base attack duration
- 3.0s base recovery duration

Q: What attack/recovery it will have at 20 DEX with overdraw?

> Let's compute attack duration:
- steps_sum = (1.3 - 1) = 0.3
- speed_coef = 1.3 + 1 = 1.3
- attack_duration = 1.1s / 1.3 = 0.846s

> Let's compute recovery duration:
- steps_sum = (1.3 - 1) + (1 - 1 / 2) = 0.3 + -1 = -0.7
- speed_coef = 1 / (1 - -0.7) = 1/1.7 = 0.588
- recovery_duration = 3.0s / 0.588 = 5.1s

Result: at 20 DEX and overdraw, warbow will have:
~ 0.8s attack duration
~ 5.1s recovery duration

 

I love that you give us these calculation examples.

And in the example above, am I right in reading it like this:

Even with DEX 20, overdraw will always give the player less DPS (assuming everything else is the same), so if you want to do more damage per second, skip overdraw?


Edited by IndiraLightfoot, 30 January 2018 - 08:51 AM.


#5
Enduin

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So am I correct to take away from this that in the main game we might expect Spell times to be diminished greatly based on gear and other buffs we have applied and then the opposite based on whatever Debuffs we or our enemies get hit with? So I should be looking to get Aloth and Xoti hooked on Coral Snuff?



#6
MaxQuest

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Btw, ever wondered why:
- plate armor displays: +55% recovery time
- scale armor displays: +35% recovery time
- plate armor with armored grace: +18% recovery time
- scale armor with armored grace: +6% recovery time

I do now.

Armor tooltips state the recovery penalty, like "+55% Recovery Time".
But the game operates with "speed" coefficients for it's (at least intermediate) calculations. Thus:
- in case of heavy armor: we have x0.645 recovery speed instead of x1.55 recovery time
- in case of medium armor: we have x0.740 recovery speed instead of x1.35 recovery time
- in case of light armor: we have x0.833 recovery speed instead of x1.20 recovery time
We get these values by dividing 1 on them, e.g: 1/1.55 = 0.645. Interestingly if you inspect gamebundles, the game actually stores straight up 0.645, and not 1.55.

Now, what does Armored Grace? It adds +0.2. So:
- in case of heavy armor: x0.645 -> x0.845 recovery speed -> x1.18 recovery time
- in case of heavy armor: x0.740 -> x0.940 recovery speed -> x1.06 recovery time
- in case of light armor: x0.833 -> x1 recovery speed -> x1 recovery time
Note: armor recovery speed coef is capped at 1, i.e. armor type can't make you faster than you are.

But that's for tooltip. And here a concrete example for warbow recovery in different armors (@10 DEX, no overdraw):
Spoiler

My only other comment is the disproportionate effects Malus has, it seems like an unfair trade and as such abilities with Attack Speed/Recovery Malus will be avoided for being too costly.

True that. This double inversion seems to over-smooth the edge cases. Any malus will heavily counter any bonus you have. But if you have many (and only) maluses, the final slowdown won't be that big.
 

And a concrete example. Warbow has:
- 1.1s base attack duration
- 3.0s base recovery duration

Q: What attack/recovery it will have at 20 DEX with overdraw?

> Let's compute attack duration:
- steps_sum = (1.3 - 1) = 0.3
- speed_coef = 1.3 + 1 = 1.3
- attack_duration = 1.1s / 1.3 = 0.846s

> Let's compute recovery duration:
- steps_sum = (1.3 - 1) + (1 - 1 / 2) = 0.3 + -1 = -0.7
- speed_coef = 1 / (1 - -0.7) = 1/1.7 = 0.588
- recovery_duration = 3.0s / 0.588 = 5.1s

Result: at 20 DEX and overdraw, warbow will have:
~ 0.8s attack duration
~ 5.1s recovery duration

I love that you give us these calculation examples.
And in the example above, am I right in reading it like this:
Even with DEX 20, overdraw will always give the player less DPS (assuming everything else is the same), so if you want to do more damage per second, skip overdraw?

Hmm, yes and no.
Enabling overdraw brings you from [0.846s attack time + 2.3s recovery time] to [0.846s + 5.1s]; i.e. reduces your dps action rate by x1.88

In theory it may be useful to enable overdraw when you are attacking a high AR target, in cases when it will bring you from dealing 25% damage (due to underpenetration) to 50% and especially if to 75%. But in practice we as players will likely just find other ways to rise our PEN high; specifically ways that won't require us to attack that slower.
 

So am I correct to take away from this that in the main game we might expect Spell times to be diminished greatly based on gear and other buffs we have applied and then the opposite based on whatever Debuffs we or our enemies get hit with? So I should be looking to get Aloth and Xoti hooked on Coral Snuff?

Hehe, I guess so :)
And especially keep an eye on Deftness Potion, as it scales marvelously with alchemy.

Edited by MaxQuest, 30 January 2018 - 09:41 AM.


#7
Boeroer

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And Potions of Deftness. All casters need to be addicted to Potions of Deftness. With a ton of Alchemy...

Edit: argh dat ninja! :)

Edited by Boeroer, 30 January 2018 - 09:42 AM.


#8
AndreaColombo

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As always, you’re doing the Lord’s work, MaxQuest.

Not a fan of the changes, frankly, but I don’t have it in me to fight this fight.

#9
Dr <3

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As always, you’re doing the Lord’s work, MaxQuest.

Not a fan of the changes, frankly, but I don’t have it in me to fight this fight.


I always thougt that you were a warrior inside , you runned out of costant recovery? :(
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#10
Boeroer

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His inner Lady of Pain had too much Ibuprofen with lots of Alchemy I guess. ;)


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#11
SkySlam

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I understand very little of this, but I'm compelled to agree nonetheless :p

My only naive consideration: casting times are so heavy that it's impossible they didn't notice. I'm positive that something in the game will greatly influence those, being it alchemy, buffs or other things we cannot grasp yet in the beta.

That said, I'm not a fan of these changes either. Combat in PoE1 was great in my opinion, I've had hundreds of hours of fun with it, I don't know why they would go to such lenghts to change it.



#12
Enduin

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Silver lining for me at least, the current state of things might force me to actually learn to fully incorporate and utilize consumables and niche buffs in my play style, as I currently ignore 80% of it and my general course of action when finding myself in a tough fight is to brute force it with changing my tactics, ability use and enemy priority rather than using any kind of consumable or the like to make up for party deficiencies. I also hope changes to bombs and traps also give me cause to do use those more and to an actual meaningful effect.

 

Purposefully building a Nalpazca type character around the use of potions and drugs and then also needing to use those and other things to help buff up my magic users and in turn use those magic users to further buff my party will be a good learning exercise and kick in the pants to broaden my skill set. I am too reliant on Debuff and straight forward enemy management and dmg dealing than buffing my side.


Edited by Enduin, 30 January 2018 - 01:29 PM.


#13
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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SO what does that mean for guns vs bows? This is the only thing I care about. 

 

Basically if you use guns, wear armor?


Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, 30 January 2018 - 04:56 PM.


#14
SaruNi

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Notes:
- it looks like reload duration was decided to be left unafected by the armor type.

 

Before iirc you linked to a quote from Josh which suggested that armor will eventually affect reload duration. Did they change their minds, or have they just not implemented it yet?....

 

Wonder how available potions or crafting materials will be in the game, at various stages. Will probably be able to farm consistently by some point in the game. 

 

It's a bit of a let down that potion use renders most class +action speed abilities irrelevant, since potions are better and the effects almost never stack. Would like it more if base potion +action speed (at least without significant points in alchemy) was lower but stacked with class abilities.


Edited by SaruNi, 30 January 2018 - 06:46 PM.


#15
Madscientist

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You are fantastic MaxQuest.

 

so what do we have now:

- Like the new damage formula, nobody can calculate the new attack speed without a calculator ( double inversion). OK, while the old damage formula was very simple, I am not a power gamer and I did not calculate attack speed in PoE1, I just used things that make me faster when I found them. No Idea if I reached zero recovery.

- On the pro side, you can see attack duration and recovery/reload duration in the game. No big need to calculate stuff yourself. Though things get harder when you look at non permanent effects (permanent effects = stats, equipment, modals. Just change things as you like and look at the screen; non permanent = active abilities, potions. You have to use them to see the effects so without lots of reloading it will be hard to find out what a combination of these things does.)

- Like the new damage formula, penalties seem to have a larger effect than bonusses.

This is bad in a system where everyone wants to use heavy armor because of the armor/penetration system. A few points of AR make a huge difference in how many damage you receive.

- The modals that increase recovery by 100% seem even more terrible now.

 

some questions:

- What of these things stack and did this change from PoE1?

- Since everyone wants a heavy armor because of the AR/pen system and not everyone is a fighter, how many bonusses do you need to compensate the heavy armor?

- Some people said a blast rod + rangers driving flight + monks ability that crits cause another attack (name forgotten, sorry) is OP. Is this still true in heavy armor compared to just dual wielding something without modal in heavy armor? (OK, we already discussed that dual wielding seems to be too powerful now.)

- So you calculate recovery time and dual wielding halves this number. What does the +20% from the fighter talent do? Does it reduce recovery by 70% (50% dual wielding + 20% talent)?

 

OK, at least now I understand why dual wielding is so OP.

When everyone wants to have heavy armor and speed penalties have a bigger effect than bonusses, most characters recovery will be longer than the base value and something that cuts this time in half seems more powerful, the longer the recovery time is.

At the moment I see only 2 situations where it is not useful to wear heavy armor:

- You know exactly the pen of all enemies you fight during the next battle and you are sure that a lighter armor will give you enough protection. (except some power gamers nobody will remember the exact stats of each enemies and all ways to influence these)

- You fight a dragon with 100pen, so he will overpenetrate anyway and all armor protection is useless.


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#16
IndiraLightfoot

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MaxQuest also wrote that even one malus hampers this badly, but how bad does it get if there are more of them?

 

And speaking of which: Which maluses are the worst offenders in this case?



#17
Madscientist

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MaxQuest also wrote that even one malus hampers this badly, but how bad does it get if there are more of them?

 

And speaking of which: Which maluses are the worst offenders in this case?

worst things I found:

+ 100% recovery from modals, disoriented and blind

+ 55% from heavy armor

But I do not know all modals or talents at the moment.

 

Are there any penalties to attack speed?

I found only things that increase attack speed or increase recovery time.

If bonusses apply to attack speed (attack+recovery) while penalties apply only to recovery, maybe the malus is a bit lower than it seems by looking at the numbers above.

But since recovery time is usually much longer than attack/casting time, I do not think that makes such a huge difference.

OK, Dual wielding is a bonus of recovery time only, no bonus to attack time. Armored grace too.


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#18
clouseau64

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Thanks maxquest for summarising masterfully the various thread.

For once, i welcome the new mechanics eve. With some of the side effects.

#19
Madscientist

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@MaxQuest: I have a little problem with your formula:

 

How big is coef_n?

- If the effect does +X% attack speed, its 1.X (e.g. +20% attack speed = coef_n 1.2)

- If the effect does -X% attack speed, its 1/1.X (e.g. -55% recovery = coef_n 1/1.55)

 

I guess this means -100% means coef_n = 1/2.

 

Wait a sec: when I look at the formula for the steps_sum it must be minus for things that make you slower. ( like -1/1.55 for heavy armor or -1/2 for the modal)

Else, if you add enough small numbers, the result will be above 1 again.

But if the sum is negative, the speed coefficient would be negative which makes no sense.

 

Maybe I read the formulas the wrong way, so for coefficients that cause a malus it is: https://imgur.com/a/Z0iiW

 

PS: It is really hard to write a text down here and scroll up and down all the time to look at the formulas and examples.

 

Edit: entered the link to the image.

Would be better to see the image in the text, but it does not work if I click on image and enter the link there.


Edited by Madscientist, 31 January 2018 - 05:34 AM.


#20
MaxQuest

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SO what does that mean for guns vs bows? This is the only thing I care about. 
 
Basically if you use guns, wear armor?

Seems so. Armor only hinders recovery, so if you mainly use guns (and let's say rarely toss a few spells with fast recovery), you can basically wear the heaviest armor without repercussions.

I would especially keep an eye on crossbows. Now that they have 0.7 attack duration, 0 recovery and 3.0s reloading, they are really good at 17-22 base damage, 7 pen and 12 range.

List of all weapons for reference: link
 

Notes:
- it looks like reload duration was decided to be left unafected by the armor type.

Before iirc you linked to a quote from Josh which suggested that armor will eventually affect reload duration. Did they change their minds, or have they just not implemented it yet?....

Yeah. Here's the excerpt:
Spoiler

Probably they have changed their minds regarding armor.
But stuff like Frenzy, Swift Strikes, and +/-% Action Speed stuff does affect reloading now.


Wonder how available potions or crafting materials will be in the game, at various stages. Will probably be able to farm consistently by some point in the game.

Good point. Availability of crafting materials coupled with alchemy vendors will have a big influence on how will alchemy integrate into the game.
 

so what do we have now:
- Like the new damage formula, nobody can calculate the new attack speed without a calculator ( double inversion). OK, while the old damage formula was very simple, I am not a power gamer and I did not calculate attack speed in PoE1, I just used things that make me faster when I found them. No Idea if I reached zero recovery.

- The current formula is easy to write down and explain, but yeap, once there is a single malus, you can't calculate nothing without a calculator.
- The PoE1 was harder to explain and lay down on paper, not to mention that you had to know which coefficients are going to be aggregated in multiplicative and which in additive manner. But it was easier to compute stuff in mind.
- There was kinda another possible approach, that could combine the best of two worlds: divide [the sum of bonuses] by [sum of maluses]. E.g. you are affected by two bonuses that increase your speed by 20% and 30%; and one malus that decreases your speed by 50%: coef = (1 + 0.2 + 0.3) / (1 + 0.5) = 1. Voila. No negative numbers; easy to calculate and implement.
But perhaps they indeed wanted such behaviour.
 

some questions:
- What of these things stack and did this change from PoE1?
- Since everyone wants a heavy armor because of the AR/pen system and not everyone is a fighter, how many bonusses do you need to compensate the heavy armor?
- Some people said a blast rod + rangers driving flight + monks ability that crits cause another attack (name forgotten, sorry) is OP. Is this still true in heavy armor compared to just dual wielding something without modal in heavy armor? (OK, we already discussed that dual wielding seems to be too powerful now.)
- So you calculate recovery time and dual wielding halves this number. What does the +20% from the fighter talent do? Does it reduce recovery by 70% (50% dual wielding + 20% talent)?

1. +x% Action Speed effects do not stack. Only the highest apply. This includes: Frenzy, Swift Strike, Potion of Deftness, Potion of Relentless Strikes (if I remember right how it's called). It's pretty similar to PoE1 in terms of stacking.
2. because of double inversion, I would say: a variable amount of bonuses, as it changes depending on all related effects that affect you.
3. it should be true for being in heavy armor as well. It's just a chain of procs. If you crit, you get an extra instant free attack. If it crits, you get an extra one again, and so on. The primary factor here is the chance to crit.
4. No no. It's not that you calculate recovery and AFTER that dual-wielding halves it. DW bonus is taken into account DURING recovery calculation.
As for stacking Two-Weapon Style with DW, it goes like this:
- Dual Wielding gives you +100% recovery speed
- Two-Weapon Style gives you +20% recovery speed
So:
- step_sum = (2 - 1) + (1.2 -1) = 1.2
- speed_coef = 1.2 + 1 = 2.2
- recovery = base_recovery / 2.2
 

OK, at least now I understand why dual wielding is so OP.

Imagine two characters:
- A: wields a single sabre. @10DEX: 0.7s attack + 3.0s recovery = 3.7s
- B: dual-wields them. @10DEX: 0.7s attack + 1.5s recovery = 2.2s (or x1.68 faster)

Q: How much DEX would A need, in order to deliver a blow every 2.2s?
A: 66 DEX

- From auto-attacking perspective, it's like A is getting +12 PER bonus for attacking with a single weapon; while B is getting +56 DEX for dual-wielding) (ofc these numbers change a bit if you are affected by additional bonuses and maluses; but without them that is)
- And now there are also FullAttack abilities. Basically you hit not every 2.2s, but every: 0.7s, 2.2s, 0.7s, 2.2s, and so on, because mainhand recovery is skipped. That's 1.45s on average. So if we had A and B both being paladins, B would effectively deliver his attacks x2.55 (3.7/1.45) faster than A color=#888888](up from x1.68, while he has FoD charges)[/color]
 

MaxQuest also wrote that even one malus hampers this badly, but how bad does it get if there are more of them?

One malus has a greater effect than one would expect. But many maluses is suddenly not that. It's like the system heavily smooths the edge cases, when we have many bonuses, or many maluses.
Let's take that warbow again:
Spoiler

Which maluses are the worst offenders in this case?

As MadScientist already mentioned:
+100% recovery from modals, disoriented and blind
+55% from heavy armor

plus
-50% action speed from some other modals, which also answers his question: if there are any attack phase related maluses.
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