The Political Quinceañera Thread

[Pidesco]

After a 30 minute perusal of the nations top newspapers and media outlets it seems gun control is the only solution everyone is talking about. Ironically had he rammed a car into 17 kids at a bus stop not one would be talking about banning cars... but whatever. In light of the turn in the conversation here is what everyone who wants that needs to do to make their "dream" a reality:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnoFKskvSq4

 

Is a gun a privilege or a right?

[smjjames]

 

After a 30 minute perusal of the nations top newspapers and media outlets it seems gun control is the only solution everyone is talking about. Ironically had he rammed a car into 17 kids at a bus stop not one would be talking about banning cars... but whatever. In light of the turn in the conversation here is what everyone who wants that needs to do to make their "dream" a reality:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnoFKskvSq4

 

Is a gun a privilege or a right?

 

 

According to the Constitution, it's a right.

[Pidesco]

Obviously, but I'm asking Guard Dog, who is not the living personification of the second amendment, despite appearances.

[Hurlshort]

We have plain clothes Air Marshals on airplanes. Perhaps this idea could be used in schools.

 

It's no joke though, I went to a high school in rural North Florida. On any given day there were plenty rifles and shotguns on gun racks in vehicles in the parking lot. 90% of the boys had pocket knives while in class. No oe was ever shot or stabbed. It was unthinkable, This situation where lone nutjob decides to shoot up a school is a new thing. The guns have ALWAYS been here and used to be much easier to get and much less expensive. We went wrong somewhere. Blaming the hardware is not going to fix the root cause.

 

To be fair, the overwhelmingly vast majority of schools still do not have anyone shot or stabbed. But yes, I agree we are going wrong somewhere. When we had a serial killer epidemic in this country, you saw changes in the way law enforcement worked, and extensive research done into the mental state of the killers. Now that we have a mass shooting epidemic, it would be best if we responded similarly, with targeted research and resources devoted to mental health. But people keep talking about guns instead.

[Pidesco]

 

We have plain clothes Air Marshals on airplanes. Perhaps this idea could be used in schools.

 

It's no joke though, I went to a high school in rural North Florida. On any given day there were plenty rifles and shotguns on gun racks in vehicles in the parking lot. 90% of the boys had pocket knives while in class. No oe was ever shot or stabbed. It was unthinkable, This situation where lone nutjob decides to shoot up a school is a new thing. The guns have ALWAYS been here and used to be much easier to get and much less expensive. We went wrong somewhere. Blaming the hardware is not going to fix the root cause.

 

To be fair, the overwhelmingly vast majority of schools still do not have anyone shot or stabbed. But yes, I agree we are going wrong somewhere. When we had a serial killer epidemic in this country, you saw changes in the way law enforcement worked, and extensive research done into the mental state of the killers. Now that we have a mass shooting epidemic, it would be best if we responded similarly, with targeted research and resources devoted to mental health. But people keep talking about guns instead.

 

 

Is there an unusually high number of people in the US with mental health issues? Or is there instead an unusually high number of people with mental health issues that have access to guns?

[Raithe]

 

 

Is there an unusually high number of people in the US with mental health issues? Or is there instead an unusually high number of people with mental health issues that have access to guns?

 

 

Not meaning to take any cheap shots... But it is America. So probably both.

[Hurlshort]

Obviously, but I'm asking Guard Dog, who is not the living personification of the second amendment, despite appearances.

 

Gun ownership is more than just a right, it is written into the constitution sounding like an obligation of the citizenry in order to keep the government in check.

 

 

Is there an unusually high number of people in the US with mental health issues? Or is there instead an unusually high number of people with mental health issues that have access to guns?

 

 

 

 

Both? The US has had massive cuts in mental health facilities and funding over the last few decades. To be fair, some of it was under the guise of good intentions, since we pretty much just locked people with mental health issues away from the general population. But we didn't divert the money spent on sanitariums to better mental health care and research, that is for sure.

[Guard Dog]

Pidesco is is a right with a "but". Prohibition is not allowed (and won't be tolerated by many, many citizens myself among them) but there is room to move on WHAT is available and to who. I'm all for raising the minimum age on rifles and shot guns from 18 to 21. It has been 21 for hand guns for as long as I can remember. Where you lose me is when they start talking about things like "assault weapon" bans and silencer bans and other crap that is specious, wrong headed, or based on purely cosmetic factors. For example and AR-15 and a Marlin .223 semi auto:

 

 

The both fire the exact same ammunition at the exact same rate. The former is an "assault weapon" the latter isn't. The distinguishing factors are purely cosmetic. They have nothing to do with the operation. The people who want to ban the former are not stupid. They know that. Their goal isn't to ban the former, it's to ban both. And all the rest too. So they scare people who don't know better to agree to ban the former. Then something bad happens again and they say "well we have to ban ALL semi-auto actions". Then something else happens and it's "we have to ban ALL lever actions" and on it goes. 

 

The reason why I KNOW this is how it will go is there is a fundamental disagreement between the people who want guns banned and those who don't that the Constitution didn't really mean everyone when it refers to "the People" in the 2nd Amendment but it did in the First, Fourth, Fifth, and Ninth.

 

Until I hear "yes we agree firearm ownership is an individual right and we promise to never attempt prohibition" I will not budge on bans of any stripe.

[Guard Dog]

For what it's worth I don't own an AR. I have only two semi-auto weapons. Both are pistols. On is a .22LR which is only for target shooting. The other is a Browning 10mm which I never shoot because the ammo is too expensive.

[Guard Dog]

Another thing going on I'm 100% opposed to is Concealed Carry reciprocity being mandated by the Federal government. I'm all for concealed carry. I have a permit in three states and I do carry (where appropriate). And I'm 100% for states working together to recognize each others permits. But I'm 100% opposed to the federal government forcing them to. This is a state government issue and it is up to the government and voters of each state to work out on their own. Washington needs to butt out. 

[Pidesco]

What's a well regulated militia?

[smjjames]

I've always assumed that 'assault rifles' or 'assault weapons' referred to guns with large magazines or namely, those that were purely designed for war (or those based off of those purely designed for war).

 

Also, while you say that the two fire the same ammo at the same rate (and obviously you know your guns, so, I take you at your word), there IS a major distinction, namely the number of bullets at a time. Hunting rifles and such aren't what's being used in these mass murders, it's the high capacity assault rifles.

 

I know you said that the term 'assault rifles' is what causes you to tune out of the discussion, but what other term would you use? weapons of war? I know of no other term to describe that class of weapons. Which I suppose might be part of the issue with the gun debate, the terms being used.

[smjjames]

What's a well regulated militia?

 

That's one of those things that aren't always clear, or at least people weasel word their way around. I can't tell you the legal definition and calling them paramilitaries might be the wrong answer.

[Malcador]

I always thought the rifle needed select fire, detachable mag and uses intermediate cartridges. In Canada there are restrictions on magazine sizes, if I recall. I guess that may help as it'll force the shooter to reload, but is a case of less bodies so is an imperfect one.

[Guard Dog]

What's a well regulated militia?

The first clause which mentions the "well regulated militia" is the Prefatory Clause. In a number on instances in the US Constitution and in many laws written in those days the Operative Clause "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is preceded by a Prefatory clause that explains the thinking or reasoning. The Prefatory clause does not amend the meaning of the operative clause. The militia was all military aged males owning firearms to act as a partisan or organized militia in the event of an invasion. It was a hell of a deterrent to the Japanese in WW2 and today is the final resort against our own government should the need ever arise.

[Guard Dog]

I've always assumed that 'assault rifles' or 'assault weapons' referred to guns with large magazines or namely, those that were purely designed for war (or those based off of those purely designed for war).

 

Also, while you say that the two fire the same ammo at the same rate (and obviously you know your guns, so, I take you at your word), there IS a major distinction, namely the number of bullets at a time. Hunting rifles and such aren't what's being used in these mass murders, it's the high capacity assault rifles.

 

I know you said that the term 'assault rifles' is what causes you to tune out of the discussion, but what other term would you use? weapons of war? I know of no other term to describe that class of weapons. Which I suppose might be part of the issue with the gun debate, the terms being used.

The Marlin comes with a 6 round detachable magazine but they sell 10 round versions for $37. I don't know what the AR comes with but 30 round is the biggest I've ever seen. Banning large cap magazines might be one way to go but there are a hell of a lot of them out there already and there would be a massive demand for them the moment that idea is floated.

[smjjames]

Well, there is a reason (just wnat it is, I don't specifically know, other than the kill factor) that the AR-15 type is so popular with mass murderers. With the lack of comprehensive and data rich studies going into every single small detail, like CDC would for diseases, it's hard to know what to target if we don't know what to target other than what we do know.

[Guard Dog]

Well, there is a reason (just wnat it is, I don't specifically know, other than the kill factor) that the AR-15 type is so popular with mass murderers. With the lack of comprehensive and data rich studies going into every single small detail, like CDC would for diseases, it's hard to know what to target if we don't know what to target other than what we do know.

I believe the most common weapon in homicides as of 2016 was the .380 with the .40 coming in a close second. Both are handgun rounds and are used by small and relatively cheap models. Did they ever confirm what the Vegas shooter way using?

[Gfted1]

It was a hell of a deterrent to the Japanese in WW2...

Id be interested to read about this if you have any links.

[smjjames]

 

Well, there is a reason (just wnat it is, I don't specifically know, other than the kill factor) that the AR-15 type is so popular with mass murderers. With the lack of comprehensive and data rich studies going into every single small detail, like CDC would for diseases, it's hard to know what to target if we don't know what to target other than what we do know.

I believe the most common weapon in homicides as of 2016 was the .380 with the .40 coming in a close second. Both are handgun rounds and are used by small and relatively cheap models. Did they ever confirm what the Vegas shooter way using?

 

 

 

I don't remember the specific types, but the Vegas shooter had like 18 weapons (how many types though, I don't know) in his hotel room and caches of more elsewhere.

 

 

 

 

It was a hell of a deterrent to the Japanese in WW2...

Id be interested to read about this if you have any links.

 

 

I'd imagine that the gun culture in general and prevalence of guns could have given them pause.

Edited February 16, 2018 by smjjames

[Malcador]

 

Well, there is a reason (just wnat it is, I don't specifically know, other than the kill factor) that the AR-15 type is so popular with mass murderers. With the lack of comprehensive and data rich studies going into every single small detail, like CDC would for diseases, it's hard to know what to target if we don't know what to target other than what we do know.

I believe the most common weapon in homicides as of 2016 was the .380 with the .40 coming in a close second. Both are handgun rounds and are used by small and relatively cheap models. Did they ever confirm what the Vegas shooter way using?

Not sure about used, but they found AR10,AR15, FN15, and some AKs (they say 47, but who knows). Hard to find an exact list

[Ethics Gradient]

Well, there is a reason (just wnat it is, I don't specifically know, other than the kill factor) that the AR-15 type is so popular with mass murderers..

The AR-15 platform is simply the Honda Civic of firearms.  Reliable, easy to learn, cheap, accurate, and infinitely customizable.

 

You have to consider that when a military evaluates a weapon for use, it's not specifically about "killin' powah!".  Ergonomics, adaptability, reliability, and ease of training guide the majority of those decisions.  That the AR-15 design is easy to use translates directly to why it is popular with civilians.

 

The actual technical specs to the firearm are also in the public domain.  There are legitimately hundreds of manufacturers and boutique shops producing AR-15 clones these days.  It's also been America's service weapon for nearly 50 years.  Before the rise of the AR-15, both the M14 and M1 Garand were popular in shooting sports for similar reasons.

[Chilloutman]

Its like being surprised that everyone in middle east have AK..

[smjjames]

Its like being surprised that everyone in middle east have AK..

 

The AK platform (of which the 47 is the most common/popular) is one of the (if not THE) most common weapons in the world, that I do know.

Edited February 16, 2018 by smjjames

[Hurlshort]

I think getting caught up in the specs of these weapons is simply a red herring. While I'm sure the firing rate and everything is a factor in the choice of these mass shooters, I'd say a big reason they are choosing this:

 

 

Over some hunting rifle is because it looks like something you would go shoot people with.