Madscientist Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) @IndiraLightfood: You said: "Primary attack means only the weapon in the right hand, full attack means both weapons at the same time if you're dualwielding." You do not attack with both weapons at the same time when using a full attack. Usually its: Main Hand Attack -> recovery -> Off Hand Attack -> recovery full attack = first you attack with one weapon, then you attack with the other weapon and only then comes the recovery. So the advantage of a full attack is that there is no recovery between those two attacks and both attacks can cause the secondary effect ( like fire lash for FoD or status effect for a rogue attack) Bonus questions: - When using a full attack, do you use the main hand or off hand weapon first and which recovery is used afterwards? I think I have read that things changed from PoE1. - When using a primary attack, is always the main hand used or does it "upgrade" the next normal attack. - So you are dual wielding and while you attack with the main hand you select a special attack ( full attack or primary attack), will you use the off hand attack for your next attack because normally you would attack with your off hand next or does it not matter what you do now if you select to use a full or primary attack next? Edited January 11, 2018 by Madscientist
theBalthazar Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) Obsidian have already correct the problem of 2 handed style VS 2 sabres (2 weapons style) : 1) With the nerf of the bonus included in the base damage. In POE1 (sabre) 2) With the BIG nerf of carnage in POE2. The only case witch was problematic with the full attack system. There is an advantage to stay with two handed style : you only do one executive action like said above. I hope a boost 15 to 20 % for the fighter. Speed is not necessarily correlative to damage usually ? Like +20 % damage ? = +20 % Action speed. Etc. (And two handed style = 15 % with the Fighter, and two weapons style = 20 %) So there is a better DPS overall for 2 handed style when there is a full attack. Time of action + Recovery VS Time of action x 2 + Recovery If you have barbarian, barbaric blow can cancel the recovery = 2 hands widely better under certain circumstances. Edited January 11, 2018 by theBalthazar
MaxQuest Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 - When using a full attack, do you use the main hand or off hand weapon first and which recovery is used afterwards? I think I have read that things changed from PoE1.I've mentioned this in the above post) PoE1 (checked in v2.03 and 3.0+): offhand attack -> mainhand attack -> mainhand recovery Deadfire (checked in Beta1): mainhand attack -> offhand attack -> offhand recovery When using a primary attack, is always the main hand used or does it "upgrade" the next normal attack.Afaik it's always the mainhand. So you are dual wielding and while you attack with the main hand you select a special attack ( full attack or primary attack), will you use the off hand attack for your next attack because normally you would attack with your off hand next or does it not matter what you do now if you select to use a full or primary attack next?Afaik in PoE1 it would be as following: - if you issue a special attack before your current normal swing deal the damage: current animation is discarded/interrupted and your start your special attack - if you issue a special attack after your current normal swing dealt damage: you go into recovery, and only after that your special attack will start And no, it doesn't matter what you did before. The hand-sequence will be as described in the answer on question 1. 2 PoE1 useful stuff: attack speed calculator, unofficial patch mod, attack speed mechanics, dot mechanics, modals exclusivity rules PoE2 useful stuff: community patch, attack speed mechanics, enemy AR and defenses
IndiraLightfoot Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 - When using a full attack, do you use the main hand or off hand weapon first and which recovery is used afterwards? I think I have read that things changed from PoE1.I've mentioned this in the above post)PoE1 (checked in v2.03 and 3.0+): offhand attack -> mainhand attack -> mainhand recovery Deadfire (checked in Beta1): mainhand attack -> offhand attack -> offhand recovery When using a primary attack, is always the main hand used or does it "upgrade" the next normal attack.Afaik it's always the mainhand. So you are dual wielding and while you attack with the main hand you select a special attack ( full attack or primary attack), will you use the off hand attack for your next attack because normally you would attack with your off hand next or does it not matter what you do now if you select to use a full or primary attack next?Afaik in PoE1 it would be as following:- if you issue a special attack before your current normal swing deal the damage: current animation is discarded/interrupted and your start your special attack - if you issue a special attack after your current normal swing dealt damage: you go into recovery, and only after that your special attack will start And no, it doesn't matter what you did before. The hand-sequence will be as described in the answer on question 1. This kind of stuff really needs to be described in a clear-cut way within the game, like Boeroer has been campaigning for. 2 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***
dunehunter Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) There are more than just primary attack/full attack abilities in the game, I listed a few more below: Disengagement attack: attack once with primary weapon. Riposte: attack with main and off weapon once. Cleave: attack with main and off weapon once. Backstab: only work with primary weapon. So currently both two handed and two weapon style has its advantage now, but that doesn't mean two handed weapon doesn't need any tune. It's still inferior to two weapon style when doing auto attacks. Edited January 11, 2018 by dunehunter
theBalthazar Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) CHANTER (Part 1) - The list is pretty big, I cut this into two parts. First, the active abilities. - Are applied here the same rules for casters than Priest. > ACTIVE ABILITIES (SPELLS) Hel Hyraf Good spell. Proposal : Perfect like this +The Shield Cracks Problem here. The concept is interresting. But I think in 12 seconds + Int (base version) I have the time to kill any monster of the game. It is not a bad improve, but... Proposal : +10 accuracy of the spell. This could encourage me, to take it. Bones still Slept 8 seconds of cast+recovery for 12 seconds of invocation. Racket ? : p Proposal : 20 seconds of invocation. +Ancient brittle Bones 2 lessers versions if a skeleton fall in battle. Proposal : Perfect like this. Justly Avenged (Thunder : p) Ok for me Proposal : Perfect like this. +Her revenge Swept WTF, penetration and recovery time decreased !?... Bug ? Proposal : Same penetration than the base version (7) and recovery (3s). Reny Daret' Ghost No comment... This is one little Ghost, not a Jedi : p All of this for 10 seconds of cast time + recovery. No release date of the game now !...^^ Proposal : Down the speed category Slow to intermediate. Increase the duration of invocation, 12 to 20. +Hunt for revenge "Duration is -greatly- increase" = 12s LOL. If we stay with my proposition : That's 32 seconds. (20+12) Proposal : +10 seconds (Total 30s) +1 additionnal Ghost. Felled by the axe (Armor Rating) Ok for this concept. +4 AR is a good number. Proposal : Perfect like this +Nor Flame Good addition. Two others bonus to Armor Rating. Balanced. Proposal : Perfect like this Gernisc slew the beast (Wurms) For me, Slow is really for a AOE spell that do very high damage after the strict end of cast time, and applies in a same time 1 affliction or 2 afflictions. It is not the case. After the end of cast time, you start to do few damages, no more... Proposal : Slow -> Intermediate. So this is not only a general balancing (Otherwise I will not say anything.). Categories are used for that. No here, there is a -real- and absurd shift. +Their screams reach It is effective but for 2 abilities we could expect better. I want to see the "powerful" side : p Proposal : Perhaps slighty more powerful. When they arrive they do not ruin opponents, unlike if I had not been a Chanter and I had to choose the path of Fighter : p. Yet I waited 10s, and with a cost 4 phrases. whose interruption would have unfortunate consequences. (happens more often than we think : Good bye 4 phrases + Huge loss of time) Risk = not really rewarded. Something is wrong here. Shatter their Shackles Quick and Crazy. Unique in the game for now ? Proposal : Perfect like this. +The prisonners turned The basic version is excellent. This one is less attractive. There is a lot of level 1 or 2 of strength inspiration in others classes (Monk / Barbarian etc.)... So for me it could be sufficient except for one detail. Proposal : Include "self" on the buff. White Worms Always so special. I never liked. Generally used at the end of the battle. I recommend... : Proposal : ...Less Cast time and more Recovery. No change of category, just a 2s of CT. 4s of R. +Their Putrid Stench Good improvement. Logical. Proposal : Perfect like this. At the sound of his voice Best invocation of the chanter. Paralyzes a group for 8s with 0.5 cast time = crazy. Proposal : Perfect like this. +And Their Fear Frightened is good but Many players (like me : p) could stop at the first version without problems... So this spell is awsome but his upgrade is not attracrive. And if targets die after during or slighty after the first effect ?^^.... Nobody will take the upgrade... Proposal : Frightened for 8s at the START of the spell. Accuracy +5. Stay with 3 phrases. (+1 phrase for this is absurd.) Reny Daret's Ghost Frightened for 12 seconds. Hum. 4 phrases is big cost... Only for this. For me the contract is not respected. Proposal : Add a malus of -5 on all defenses. The upgrade become partially the base effect. +Ben Fidel's Neck And here, we increase the effect. Don't forget there is 4 phrases now. So it is a lot of time indirectly... Proposal : -15 on all defenses. (Always create the best effect on upgrade. It is a good stimulant.) My son Always the same problem with invocations : p Proposal : Category of speed, Slow -> intermediate. +The Light Danced Ok for me. Distracting attack + More powerful. Proposal : Perfect like this. Rejoice my comrades Seems to be ok. It is not crazy but good for me. Proposal : Perfect like this. +And evil turned away Add a Correct amount of damage. Proposal : Perfect like this. Urdel and Gurdel 2 ogres. Good deal, but... Proposal : Category of Speed, Slow -> Intermediate. Rise again Revive all alies. Why not. (Not fan. If the fight fails = I played badly) Proposal : Perfect like this. The Lover Cried Charmed for 8s. Proposal : Perfect like this. +Together They Slew Good idea to increase damage. Proposal : Also increase the range of the spell : Cone of 5m. The brideman slew For me, 4 phrases deserve level 2 inspirations. + The prisonners turned already include level 1 of strength inspiration !... Proposal : Tenacious + Level 2 of resolve inspiration Gernisc's Beast Perhaps. Proposal : Category of speed : Slow -> Intermediate. The bride Caught Same than the brideman. Nimble and aware. 24s have just passed... (The kind of team that I'm going to have, will have finished the battle for a long time. But if it goes so far, the group deserves its hard-earned bonus.) Proposal : Nimble and aware (level 2 of these inspirations) Seven Nights Ok this is 5 phrases. This spell must be perfect. He is not. Proposal : Our category of speed : intermediate to fast. Increase the penetration (7 to 9). 50-70 points of damage (6x5 = 30s to wait for this !). Somtimes there is only one projectile/7 that goes touch a target. So... It is not enough. Side note : The main problem seems to come with physical invocations. All the 9s + 1s... Not only with the global problem of casting time of casters. But here its even worse. Ideally, the cast time must be reduced... Or, Obsidian must boost the power of theses invocations. But personnally, stay in an "area of risk of interruption" for 9 seconds, not for me... Edited January 12, 2018 by theBalthazar
dunehunter Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) Obsidian have already correct the problem of 2 handed style VS 2 sabres (2 weapons style) : 1) With the nerf of the bonus included in the base damage. In POE1 (sabre) 2) With the BIG nerf of carnage in POE2. The only case witch was problematic with the full attack system. There is an advantage to stay with two handed style : you only do one executive action like said above. I hope a boost 15 to 20 % for the fighter. Speed is not necessarily correlative to damage usually ? Like +20 % damage ? = +20 % Action speed. Etc. (And two handed style = 15 % with the Fighter, and two weapons style = 20 %) So there is a better DPS overall for 2 handed style when there is a full attack. Time of action + Recovery VS Time of action x 2 + Recovery If you have barbarian, barbaric blow can cancel the recovery = 2 hands widely better under certain circumstances. I think you forget that dual wielding will reduce recovery time by half. Not to mention that you can use a fast weapon in offhand when doing full attacks, because your recovery time of full attack abilities is same as your offhand weapon. Then it is Time of action + Slow Recovery = 0.7 + 3 = 3.7 second VS Time of action x2 + Fast Recovery / 2 = 0.7 + 0.5 + 1 = 2.2 second And talking about Barbaric blow that cancel recovery, I don't see why two handed is widely better here. A wider case that two weapon is way better for a full attack ability is it triggers special effect twice. Rogue will interrupt enemy twice with Strike the Bell, Kind Wayfarers will heal twice with FoD. Fighter hits twice in an aoe with cleave stance. There are just too many more case that two weapon is more superior to two handed for a full attack ability. Edited January 12, 2018 by dunehunter
KDubya Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 Don't forget that dual wielding does near 50% more DPS than two handed when auto-attacking. There just is no good reason to not dual wield in the game as it currently is balanced. If you really wanted to have a great primary attack you'd be better served with single wielding a sabre than using a Great Sword, better DPS and a +12 accuracy for more hits, crits and penetration.
AndreaColombo Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 I’ll probably dedicate a separate thread to this over the weekend, but ... removing the possibility to reach 0 recovery with all weapon kinds gave DW a huge advantage the style wasn’t really in need of. "Time is not your enemy. Forever is." — Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment "It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers." — Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus
theBalthazar Posted January 12, 2018 Author Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) So two time of actions x2 = 0.7s, also with two weapons ? WTF And why not a +40 % damage on full attack ? (for two handed ?) That would settle the gap ? removing the possibility to reach 0 recovery with all weapon Don't forget you are a master of this game. Novice and normal players will don't reach easily the 0 recovery. The only question for Obsidian : gap between viable and optimal : p For me actually : Optimal > Viable Dual wielding > Two handed > One handed+shield > One handed > Buff (At the limit...) Non viable Invocations > Offensives Spells = Two handed is not on a bad place... But potential solutions to reduce the problem if Obsidian want it : 1) Fighter two handed style = 15 % to 20 %. 2) Effects of unique / soulbound items crazy for two handed. (one slot against two potential effects with two weapons) 3) Nerf of 10 % of the natural bonus of the dual wielding. (for start). 50 % -> 40 %. Edited January 12, 2018 by theBalthazar
MaxQuest Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 I’ll probably dedicate a separate thread to this over the weekend, but ... removing the possibility to reach 0 recovery with all weapon kinds gave DW a huge advantage the style wasn’t really in need of.It would be cool to gather the list of all action/attack/recovery speed effects (along with their console ids). Maybe I'll have the time to make a calculator for current Beta as well. Although first need to check if duration tooltips (at least the end results) are indeed correct. 4 PoE1 useful stuff: attack speed calculator, unofficial patch mod, attack speed mechanics, dot mechanics, modals exclusivity rules PoE2 useful stuff: community patch, attack speed mechanics, enemy AR and defenses
theBalthazar Posted January 12, 2018 Author Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) CHANTER (Part 2) > PASSIVE ABILITIES (CHANTS) Blessed was Wengridh I'm a supporter of +15. +10 is not enough to create the start of a difference for only one attribut. Proposal : +15 reflex. At the sight +10 will and +10 fortitude. Deal. Here there are two importants values so it is ok. Proposal : Perfect like this. Dull the edge -10 % slash and pierce damage. Not sufficient. Overall if I must choose on all chants, this is not even a solution against these damages ! (Amount too low. I prefer Her courage Thick). Proposal : - 30 % ! damage slash and pierce. (Foes continue to deal 70 % of their damage for only two sources of damage... It is nothing...) NOBODY will take that if not !^^ Come soft winds 2 raws damage at 20 resolve. There is a huge problem : p Proposal : 10 raw damages. (=15 with resolve) On dozen stood 2 resistances vs afflictions Good tool. Proposal : Perfect like this. Thick grew Remove concentration. Yes... But nobody will take that. Concentration is not a great problem generally in POE2. And only that is not enough. Proposal : Will interrupt all the foes in the area of effect, every 3s. Ancient memory ~4 HP restored for all the team every 3s. Good deal. Proposal : Perfect like this. The fox from the farmer Holy crap. Reduce Accuracy of disengagement of ennemies [Edit, thanks tu dunehunter]. Worst chant ever. I trying to save this damned soul... Proposal : -50 % damage on disengaging attacks. [Opposite concept now] Sure handed Ila No problem, a good deal since POE1. Proposal : Perfect like this. Mith Fyr A classic of the Chanter. Actually the best chant. A little nerf of 5 % since POE1, but it is always ok at the moment. Proposal : Perfect like this. The long night Borderline but ok. Proposal : Perfect like this. The Silver Knights +10 is not enough. Proposal : +15 deflection. The Dragon Thrashed, The Dragon Died https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVj0ZTS4WF4 Proposal : Obsidian = this russian chanter : p Seven Men Very good tool. Proposal : Perfect like this. Her Courage Thick Awsome with the troubadour. Proposal : Perfect like this. Edited January 12, 2018 by theBalthazar 2
dunehunter Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 The fox from the farmer actually reduce enemy’s disengagement attack ACC.
theBalthazar Posted January 13, 2018 Author Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) CIPHER > ACTIVE ABILITIES (SPELLS) Mind wave Raw damage is not longer as strong as he was. So 8-12 is a little bit too low for one target... Proposal : 15-20 pts of damage. Whisper of treason Seems to be good in this "category" of speed. (See preamble of Priest : I want less Cast time and recovery globally, but/and when I am in this case : green (because balanced with the whole). And when I want specifically an additionnal effort : red and not green.) Here, if there is a general boost of all spells = it will be good. Proposal : Perfect like this. Valorous echoes 2 inspirations. Good. (Hence the need to boost the spells Litany/prayer of the priest in "fast" (our categories) Because they have only ONE inspiration....) Proposal : Perfect like this. Antipathic field Good damage and good category of speed. Proposal : Perfect like this. Soul shock Honnest damage and good category of speed. Proposal : Perfect like this. Tenuous grasp 2 afflictions during 15s... Perfect. Good category of speed. Proposal : Perfect like this. Eyestrike If we exclude general boost of speed of all spells, I think this spell is design to stay at intermediate speed. (7-8s actually). So, there is a little problem of spell radius. Proposal : 2,5m of radius. Fanthom foes -10 of deflection (flanked) for 5m radius. Good category of speed. Proposal : Perfect like this. Mind blades Powerful. Jump at penetration 9. Fast speed. Generous. (no nerf, but it is generous = ok for me atm) Proposal : Perfect like this. Recall agony ~25 % of actual damage applied again. Not bad. For the category of speed I hesitate... It is one target, the effect is over time. Proposal : Category Intermediate > fast. (But it is an intermediate at 7s, so that validates me). Psychovampiric shield Problem, when you saw Phantom foes : flanked on 5 meters. Here only a basic inspiration and -10 resolve. This is not crazy... Proposal : At least level 2 of resolve of inspiration. Amplified thrust 16-24 for one target is not crazy. Soulshock do more damage with less focus !!^^ Proposal : 30-40 Mental bending Down category of speed intermediate to fast. Indeed there is "Paralysed". But it is only one target and for 6s. Others are only immobilized. Not the same thing... Proposal : 4s of cast time, and 2 seconds of recovery. Secret horrors 2 afflictions, good category of speed. Proposal : Perfect like this. Soul ignition Too slow for a damage overtime. (total 55 damage, that is not crazy on 15 seconds for this focus spend) Proposal : Category of speed, intermediate to fast. Pain link Ok for this concept. Good category of speed. Proposal : Perfect like this. Ectopsychic echo Good damage overtime (70), and fast. (Soul ignition is beaten in all case...) Proposal : Perfect like this. Fractured volition Suffer of the comparison with secret horrors. Not bad, but the radius create a difference. Here, there is no radius. So, this is so much less good... Proposal : At least, need to be a level 2 of dexterity affliction... Puppet master dominated. Need to be at the intermediate category speed. Good. Proposal : Perfect like this Wild leech Seems to be great. Proposal : Perfect like this Mind lance To me, category of speed is good. But damage not really. Ok, 22-27 if you touch 3 ennemies in line = 66 damages. But this is not enough for the cost of Focus. Proposal : 30-40. Line is not easy to realize with the movements on the battlefield + Sometimes engagement + 40 focus for this.... Silent scream For 40 focus, this is not crazy. Everything is half done. Damage / C.C. / duration. Proposal : 25-30 main target. Stun for 8s. Foe AoE : 15-25 Because here, Soul shock + Mental binding (40 focus) = better result on damage and C.C... Raw damage is now overrated because there is no more DR. Pain block Inspiration level 3, long duration. Short cast time. Ok for me, even if... it is a little bit expensive. (40 focus...) Proposal : 1 allied Target (like now) + Cipher (Self) gain the effect. Echoing shield Not worth it for me. It is just concentration... Proposal : Downgrade on line 2 or 3. (20 or 30 focus, no more) Body attunement During this time, in Fighter tree... -10 armor rating for 0.5 cast time, without need of focus... Even if we don't consider that, this spell is anyway not enough powerful. One target only for 40 focus. Proposal : Add all defenses -10. We weakened the body's defenses... The body shell... Borrowed instinct Seems to be worth it. Good category of speed and +20 accuracy. Good debuff of the ennemy. Proposal : Perfect like this. Detonate For 50 focus and intermediate category of speed (actually 8s...) I do 24-39 ? Ok there 9 penetration, but this is not enough. Proposal : 50-70 (easy...). Tactical meld Expensive but this is 20 accuracy, and very fast category of speed. Perhaps...: Proposal : 1 allied target + Cipher (Tactic of : not a group, but two of us) Ringleader Dominated + Charmed. Seems to be sufficient. Proposal : Perfect like this. > PASSIVE ABILITIES Iron will If I generally propose 15 for one statistic. Here cipher must have a little more by shift. Proposal : +20 will Penetrating visions +1 penetration for the spells Proposal : Perfect like this. Lingering echoes +duration of afflictions Proposal : Perfect like this Bitting whip / Draining whip MaxQuest must tell us if the two are equal statistically : p Proposal : Perfect like this Psychic backlash Stunned, good effect for 10s Proposal : Perfect like this Brutal backlash 12 is not crazy. it's not going to happen all the time. Proposal : 16 raw damage. Hammering Thoughts +1 penetration with weapons. Good value. Proposal : Perfect like this Greater focus +10 max focus. Why not ? On the other hand, difficult to say if its worth it. Proposal : Perfect like this Keen mind For +5 focusn it is not enough. 5 is nothing. Proposal : +10 at the start of the battle. Edited January 13, 2018 by theBalthazar 1
hilfazer Posted January 13, 2018 Posted January 13, 2018 Raw damage is now overrated because there is no more DR But there's armor and people say armor is a big deal. Vancian =/= per rest.
theBalthazar Posted January 13, 2018 Author Posted January 13, 2018 Even in the first game I wasn't a fan of raw damage. I found it less powerful. But here, it is enough now to pass the defensive front (not impossible, will not exaggerate anything ^^) So ... The gap is not so big anymore.
AndreaColombo Posted January 13, 2018 Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) So, to elaborate further on my previous post about 0 recovery and its impact on weapon-style balancing (I figured I wouldn't open another thread just for this in the end.) In PoE, as we know, it was possible to reach 0 recovery with all weapon styles while using any armor—indeed, the 0-recovery variant of the LoP wore plate mail and wielded a two-hander with Vulnerable Attack active at all times. Obviously, once 0 recovery was reached, the most damaging weapons (2-handers) had an edge—but there was a catch. The whole setup came at a trade-off cost, where reaching 0 recovery with a 2H was harder and required you to sacrifice other equipment choices, rely more heavily on consumables, and of course give up on the extra Accuracy from single-weapon style. The choice of weapon style was therefore meaningful: All styles could reach the holy grail of DPS, but DW made it easier, 1H had extra Accuracy, and 2H had extra damage. I've read of more than one player who went for the LoP build and chose to DW despite the build's ability to reach 0 recovery with a 2-hander, for example; this let them rely a lot less on potions of DAOM and lightened other equipment requirements. In Deadfire, reaching 0 recovery is no longer possible, which means packing speed bonuses—while exhibiting diminishing returns—never stops paying dividends. You're always better off adding more speed regardless of how much you've already stacked, which also means the one style that grants extra speed (DW) trumps all others, since the others have no way to close the gap. In light of the above, I see two options: Keep things this way, but nerf the speed bonus from DW to rebalance styles. This makes things generally slower. Leave DW unchanged, but make it possible to reach 0 recovery again. This makes things generally faster. My personal preference lies with the second option, as I notoriously enjoy fast-paced aggro. In the current beta, I try to get all my attackers below 1.5s recovery and that's an acceptable level for me, but getting closer to 2s would start to eat away at my enjoyment. That said, I understand there have been more people asking for slower speed than there have been asking for faster combat; ultimately, we need balance and I trust the devs to make the right choice. I'll always find ways to speed my crew up Edited January 13, 2018 by AndreaColombo 1 "Time is not your enemy. Forever is." — Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment "It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers." — Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus
theBalthazar Posted January 13, 2018 Author Posted January 13, 2018 DRUID (MY FAVORITE CLASS IN POE1 : p) > ACTIVE ABILITIES (SPELLS) Touch of rot Good corrosive spell globally. I would have thought of more penetration, it is still acid... : p Proposal : 7 penetration (its 5) Tanglefoot Friendly fire + Dexterity inspiration level 1. Proposal : Category of speed intermediate to fast (Lol 8s in a battle for this : p surrealist) Vile thorn Damages are not crazy BUT Good penetration + AoE + Affliction + good category of speed. For a spell level 1 it is enough. Proposal : Perfect like this Nature's mark AoE -10 deflection for a good category of speed. Good for me. Proposal : Perfect like this Winter wind Penetration is not crazy... (to see in the full game...) Frankly. But overall... Hum... AoE + good damage. Borderline, but ok. Proposal : Perfect like this Nature's vigor AoE, level 1 of constitution inspiration. Good enough Proposal : Perfect like this Charm beast AoE charmed of beast. Crazy. Proposal : Perfect like this Dancing bolts Damages are too low. It is only damage dealing nothing else. Proposal : 16-26. Talon's Reach Obsidian seems to want make this spell a higher value (intermediate category of speed + More damage + 9 Penetration) Problem... Damages. Proposal : 25-35 and stay with intermediate category speed. (actually 8s). Sunbeam AoE low damage + Affliction level 3 Proposal : perfect like this Insect swarm There is a problem here. Damages overtime is ~50 but on 30s (Not crazy...). The AoE is very small. Proposal : Stay with these damages... but increase AoE where mosquitoes can spread (logical ...) Like 4.0m radius. Hold beast I always love this spell. Not useful often, but he is very strong. To reward this speciality (only beast)...: Proposal : Reduce the category of speed (Intermediate (8s) > Fast (6s)). Yes, it is extremely powerful. But it is only on beasts. Taste of the hunt When you want, you put high value with raw damages, it's not so complicated: p Proposal : Perfect like this Woodskin Crazy, fast. Proposal : Perfect like this The moon's light Good healing for good category of speed Proposal : Perfect like this Blizzard Penetration 5 is now not enough. 8s for these too few damages... Propposal : 6 penetration and category of speed intermediate to fast. Autumn's Decay It's me or Touch of rot level 1 > Autumn's Decay level 2 ?^^ But I admit, it is difficult to balance between them. One is a cone (5m is correct), the other is a little area of effect. BUT 8-14 VS 14-20 is not possible. Proposal : 11-18. At level 2 you can't do 8 pts of damage, even with damage overtime, when melee characters hit at 30 (easy, with a bad character and auto-attack...). Burst of summer flame Small damages but very fast category of speed. For me... it is ok. Not crazy but ok. Proposal : Perfect like this Firebrand (and like all summon weapons...) Not possible to spend 6 seconds for that, even with a general boost of all cast time and recovery time. So... Proposal : Quasi-Instant (0.5s) category of speed. At worst, very fast. But not 6s. Conjure lesser blight / Conjure Blight Weah !... Again... Invocations... : p Proposa: Category of speed slow (10s !!) to intermediate (8s) Spreading plague 2 afflictions+jumpx5. Ok for me. Proposal : Perfect like this Returning storm Except general cast time of all spells (not our problem) the category of speed seems to be good. Proposal : Perfect like this Twin stones Good spell but not crazy spell. So intermediate speed (8s) for this is a little bit too high Proposal : Intermediate speed to fast (6s). Stag's horn Honorable damages + Big debuff of -15. Good penetration and good category of speed. Proposal : Perfect like this Infestation of maggots When I tested it, I felt like I had a bug. Waiting for now. Proposal : ? Beettle shell Problem with this spell : generally there is an emergency. So, 3s of cast time is too much. Proposal : Stay with a "fast" category of speed, but shift at 2s cast time 4s recovery Purge of toxins Here there is a problem. Because there is two choices. 1) you stay at this category of speed. In this case, the effect must be applied to all the team. 2) Downgrade to very fast speed and stay on "one target only". Proposal : Druid is the master of poison effect and AoE spells... For me, stay with fast speed and add an AoE effect of 2 m. Nature's balm Personnally, I think this spell is a little bit too powerful. AoE / 18s for tiers 3 inspiration... with a cast time at 0.5 (quasi-instant...) Proposal : A little Nerf ! Up the category of speed, almost-instant (0.5) to very fast/fast. Repartition : 2s cast time 3s recovery Moonwell Seems to be well balanced. Proposal : Perfect like this Hail storm This is no longer possible to have 5 penetration at this level. Category of speed is weird because, this spell only do damages. Nothing else. Proposal : Category of spell Internmediate (8s) -> fast (6s). Penetration 7. Wicked briars If we stay on this category of spell "intermediate" (seems to be the will of Obsidian with a damage overtime+affliction) we must boost the affliction. Proposal : Dexterity affliction tiers 2. Overwhelming wave AoE + Correct damage + Stun. Intermediate speed seems to be in adequacy. Proposal : Perfect like this Calling the world's' maw AKA the spell the most nerf of history. 10s of cast (=slow category for us). Prone has been also nerf. And damage 24-41 (nerf). So... Proposal : If you create a Long/violent spell i'm Ok. BUT... Category of spell : slow -> intermediate. The spell does not offer an affliction strong enough to put it so high. Damage 35-52. And I think I'm Shy because, for 8s, I could go highter. Boiling spray Here more damage in 6s than the previous spell... : p Good category of speed. I got up a little the penetration. 5 is not possible at spell level 4. Proposal : Penetration 7 Form of the delemgan Powerful. Perhaps too much. Need a little nerf. Proposal : Stay with this category of speed, but nerf at 6 all armor rating. (8 is pretty insane : p) Plague of insects Good radius + Good Affliction + Good category of speed (intermediate) Good damage. Side note here : We do not get the full list of spells anymore. So, If I must choose, I prefer this spell than insect swarm. Yes, it is an another level, but we can choose now... Comparisons are more "lethal" now... 1 ability point is 1 ability point. I can take passives, and wait until this spell : witch does everything better. So be careful. Proposal : Perfect like this Relentness storm AKA the POE1 breaker : p Here, good category of speed. Good range, few damage (but not the main interrest). Well balanced. I could have nerf and send it to "slow" category honestly : but damages are too small for that. Proposal : Perfect like this Wall of thorns Potentially 150 pts of damage overtime on 30s (if I calculated well) + 1 affliction But it is very slow and it is only a simple wall (not practical) Proposal : Add +25 % of corrosive damage (only pierce damage now) this is credible and salutary. If not, Plague of insects is far better actually... Nature's terror Two choice here. 1) Stay with this category of speed, and boost the damages. 2) Down to fast the category of speed. For me, If I feel the will of Obsidian, they want a High level spell here. So damages must be boosted. Proposal : Aura of 12-16 (8-12 actually !?...) electrical damages. I remained reasonable... Cleansing wind With 9 seconds of Moon's light, I get 36 health. A spell of level 1. Just halfway. Here 28 health directly, but not practical at all, a big line. Proposal : Up to 40 health restored. This is the minimum for this level. Embrace of the earth talon If we stay with this category of speed. We must increase penetration. This spell lends itself to it. "stone claws errupt from the ground". And we must increase the radius of AoE, it is not enough. Proposal : Penetration 9 + 2m Radius Firebug Seems to be ok for damages with all the jumps. But penetration 5... At level V of spells ? Proposal : Penetration 7 > PASSIVE ABILITIES Bull's Bear's Snake's Same debate than others classes. Proposal : A bonus of +15 Wildstrike + improvement (all declinations of elemental damages) 20 % + 20 % seems to be the good numbers. Nothing to add. Proposal : Perfect like this
theBalthazar Posted January 13, 2018 Author Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) 1) Keep things this way, but nerf the speed bonus from DW to rebalance styles. This makes things generally slower. 2) Leave DW unchanged, but make it possible to reach 0 recovery again. This makes things generally faster. 1) Nerf DW is possible. It is a easy solution. But you can also boost others styles. Like one handed without shield witch is the worst with Fighter ability actually. 2) Maybe with more favorable stacking rules. More is always better than less. The goal of the player is to find the associations that suit him best. Clamp, lock the system is not the solution. I want to see Boeroer's crazy builds : p Edited January 13, 2018 by theBalthazar
JFutral Posted January 13, 2018 Posted January 13, 2018 I loved Autumn's Decay when I did a solo druid run in PoE I. It is extremely difficult to use many of the offensive spells when they affect friendly characters and have limited range, though. Form of the delemgan: What is it with you guys an wanting nerfs of the few advantages we get? Gaahh! If it is too powerful for you, just don't use it! Joe 1
theBalthazar Posted January 13, 2018 Author Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) Ah ah ah ! He remains extremely powerful AoE 2.5 m He Still have immunity against dexterity afflictions +6AR for pierce, shock, burn damage (it is 8 AR actually) +1 stride All of this for a fast spell. (actuallty the slice of 6 seconds 3+3) Not bad : p Edited January 13, 2018 by theBalthazar 1
hilfazer Posted January 13, 2018 Posted January 13, 2018 Assuming druid spells are like in POE Category of speed is weird because, this spell only do damages. Nothing else. This is exactly a spell that should be slow. Big AoE with great template, instant damage. I could have nerf and send it to "slow" category honestly And this is a spell that should not be slow. Why? because it's a duration spell. It takes time to do its job. It should probably not be fast, because of good AoE. Does any druid spell have armor reduction? If not then i'd add it to Autumn's Decay which is much crappier than in PoE1. Increased duration of Decay would actually be advantageous (in addition to being a penalty since long duration is bad for DOTs). Vancian =/= per rest.
theBalthazar Posted January 13, 2018 Author Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) If it is a big and instant damage AoE with high number : yes. But here, no spell matches this atm (perhaps highter spell levels?). The promise of obsidian is not respected. None of them do enough damage to be put in, compared to physical characters. For Relentness storm. Yes and no. This storm is immediately problematic because you stun all the ennemies for 15 seconds. No attack from them and a malus of -10 deflection. The question can be asked.... For me, if there is no sufficient damage compared to the spell level (the case here) this is not slow. (finally Relentness storm is only "intermediate") But it all depends on the general distribution, which is behind each "category of speed". That's why I talked about category mainly, otherwise everything would have been in red for casters. 6s is really long for "small spell with small effect" The categories used to compare the spells between them, without ever giving a precise number. Edited January 13, 2018 by theBalthazar
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy Posted January 13, 2018 Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) CIPHER > ACTIVE ABILITIES (SPELLS) Whisper of treason Seems to be good in this "category" of speed. (See preamble of Priest : I want less Cast time and recovery globally, but/and when I am in this case : green (because balanced with the whole). And when I want specifically an additionnal effort : red and not green.) Here, if there is a general boost of all spells = it will be good. Proposal : Perfect like this. Mental bending Down category of speed intermediate to fast. Indeed there is "Paralysed". But it is only one target and for 6s. Others are only immobilized. Not the same thing... Proposal : 4s of cast time, and 2 seconds of recovery. Puppet master dominated. Need to be at the intermediate category speed. Good. Proposal : Perfect like this I really disagree on puppet master and whisper of treason (and to a slightly lesser extent re: Mental Binding, since it's AoE): they need to be fairly quick casts, because 10 seconds is a relatively short duration, and there's a miss rate. I've shown the math elsewhere on the forum, but once you factor in miss rates, whisper and domination need a fast cast time to be worthwhile -- otherwise you're just trading your time for the enemy's at an even rate, and since PC time is more valuable than the time of a random monster, you need a really strongly beneficial time trade to make casting the power worthwhile. There's an additional factor too, which is harder to quantify; I mention it because I'm not sure how you did your testing and it might not be obvious without extended play of the class. The "ex-vancian" casters have to wait a lot less time before casting, while Ciphers have to build focus over the course of the fight, which takes time; they can't open the fight with their strongest powers in the way that a Wizard or Priest or Druid can. Because of that, I'd argue that cipher powers should be *very* fast-casting, to make up for the time lost autoattacking and waiting to build focus. (The same argument applies to an extent to Chanter invocations). That argument applies generally to all Cipher powers though, not just the specific crowd-control powers. Net effect, I'd actually argue that ciphers (and possibly Chanters) should have cast times similar to or better than their casting times in the previous game, even given the generally longer casting times in Deadfire. Everyone else moved to non-vancian, per-encounter casting, and Ciphers need something to balance that out or they'll be relatively much weaker. Fast casting seems thematic and appropriate and not unbalanced given the focus mechanic. Edited January 13, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
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