What do you think about Deflection?

[MaxQuest]

I have a feeling that not only resolve became less useful in Deadfire compared to PoE1, but also deflection itself.

 

In PoE1 rising defenses in general and deflection in particular was an important part of downgrading the quality of incoming damage (crit->hit->graze->miss). With DR being additive it allowed for a larger amount of damage being prevented by armor. And viceversa, if you had low defenses - your armor was less effective:

 

 

Having to endure an average crit compared to average hit was a big deal. While at the moment it isn't.

If you character is a melee phys-dps'er and your AR > PEN + 2, from defensive point of view you can easily offset 15 deflection from resolve, by just 5 extra CON, and put the now free points elsewhere, specifically in MIG or DEX in order to end fights faster / offset the actions slow-down.

 

Thoughts?

Edited January 3, 2018 by MaxQuest

[hilfazer]

I thought extra PEN from crits is pretty bad for units relying on armor.

 

But i'm not surprised to see absolute damage reduction is better than %. Too bad OBS didn't improve their poor implementation from POE1 but decided to go with system where DPH does not matter (not counting special attacks).

[MaxQuest]

I thought extra PEN from crits is pretty bad for units relying on armor.

The thing is you have to double their AR in order to over-penetrate.

 

There is a lagufaeth with 9 PEN. On crit it would be 13.5, and it's not that hard to achieve 16 AR, or lower their PEN.

 

P.S. Btw what is the hardest encounter in current beta?

Edited January 3, 2018 by MaxQuest

[dunehunter]

Yeah I agree that deflection become less useful in PoE 2, that’s because AR is more effective than it is in PoE 1, your sheet proves it clearly

 

You just need to make sure your AR is high enough and make sure deflection not too low, then your survival ability will be great. In PoE 1 u need high deflection to encounter high damage mobs like dragon, but now it is a no brainer to stack AR because it cost less resources, specially in PoTD.

 

Not sure how many of you have played Dota 2, but IMO it has a better AR reduction curve than PoE 2.

Edited January 3, 2018 by dunehunter

[JFutral]

The two hardest encounters my first play-through were the lagufaeth mother. I eventually took the passive way out that first play-through. That was with stock party and a simple rogue MC.

 

The second hardest was the spirits on the way to the forgotten temple. Also stock party and rogue MC.

 

Since then I've only used custom parties to play around with different multi-classes and sub-classes. Nothing has been all that difficult, but I haven't tried PotD level yet. that's next.

 

Joe

[hilfazer]

 

I thought extra PEN from crits is pretty bad for units relying on armor.

The thing is you have to double their AR in order to over-penetrate.

 

There is a lagufaeth with 9 PEN. On crit it would be 13.5, and it's not that hard to achieve 16 AR, or lower their PEN.

 

 

I was talking about regular penetration on crit.

Let's say i have 2 points of armor above my enemy's PEN. I resist 50% of his damage when he hits me. But if he crits he penetrates my armor and deals full damage. Since it's a crit full damage is 125% of his base damage (if we ignore other modifiers).

This is quite a difference.

 

If my armor can reduce damage of enemy's crit to 25% i'm probably overleveling him.

[AndreaColombo]

IME overpenetration happens every time your PEN is higher than your enemy’s AR by 5 or more; it doesn’t have to be twice as much (although IIRC the tooltip does say so; it’s perhaps worth bringing up in the bug forum as the tooltip is probably a leftover from a previous iteration of the system.)

[hilfazer]

IME overpenetration happens every time your PEN is higher than your enemy’s AR by 5 or more; it doesn’t have to be twice as much (although IIRC the tooltip does say so; it’s perhaps worth bringing up in the bug forum as the tooltip is probably a leftover from a previous iteration of the system.)

 

Couldn't tooltip be correct? Did Obsidian say they are changing overpenetration?

[AndreaColombo]

IIRC it was 5 even in the previous build. Regardless, if we bring it up, they’ll change whichever is wrong according to their vision.

[dunehunter]

Now you just need to make sure your deflection is high enough to prevent enemy from make a critical score, aka same as their accuracy, then in most case you are safe because the high AR can provide enough protection against all kind of mobs, dragon or kobold, doesn’t matter. Increase further deflection is not that worthy than put the extra attributes point into other stats.

[Breckmoney]

No real thought on the numbers themselves because who knows how those will change, but I personally really like super high armor being consistently powerful. Too many times in PoE1 it felt like the actual protectiveness of your armor didn't mean much and it was all about debuffing accuracy and buffing defenses. There may need to be a higher price paid for maintaining such high armor or more ways for enemies to take away that advantage, but I like that it's now an option. The only kinda weird thing is that it currently is less effective against a lot of small attacks.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I think the issue with deflection in both PoEs is that only one stat influences it and fhat stat influences it to a lesser degree than the other defenses are influenced by attributes. This creates a situation where Resolve can be dumped for a relatively small -7 penalty to Deflection and still have a decent non-damage/healing caster. This issue is just more prominent in PoE2 where armor is independent of damage dealt and as such less synchronization between deflection and armor.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

IME overpenetration happens every time your PEN is higher than your enemy’s AR by 5 or more; it doesn’t have to be twice as much (although IIRC the tooltip does say so; it’s perhaps worth bringing up in the bug forum as the tooltip is probably a leftover from a previous iteration of the system.)

Ok yeah that changes the math dramatically to the point that we need to know what is intended before we make any other suggestions. If it's just five over for overpenetration then the Estoc becomes much stronger for example.

[dunehunter]

Here is the Armor rate versus Damage multiplier in Dota/Dota 2, and I think this is agreed/tested to be reasonable for a good armor system.

 

 

In Dota 2, when target's armor rating is 0, damage multiplier is 1 means any damage will have 100% potential and do full damage. Any positive armor rating will gives damage reduction but in a diminishing way.

 

In PoE 2, enemy's Armor rate - your Penetration is their net armor advantage/disadvantage against you, so AR - Pen in PoE2 is similar to Armor rating in Dota.

 

If we make the (AR - Pen) vs damage multiplier in PoE 2 has a similar function as it is in Dota 2 (a steeper curve of course because u cannot have 20,30 AR higher than Pen in PoE 2 so a steeper curve to make small AR advantage worthy), then it can solve a lot issue we have now. 

 

And if it follows certain formula, it is easier to adjust or modded by players than it is now. Currently it is a Yes or No to me, if enemy AR is higher than my Pen, sorry it is a NO and I cannot do damage, if my Pen is higher I do full damage, this is a overworked system. If they can make the system works like the curve above, I believe AR can still be useful but not outshine other defense stats like it is now.

Edited January 4, 2018 by dunehunter

[KDubya]

Pumping up Resolve for better deflection is a waste, but taking a Paladin mix into your multiclass is a quick and easy +20 deflection with one pick for Deep Faith. My best melee performers are Paladin/Berserkers with Goldpacts being very good due to their all powerful +4 armor buff. They perform much better than a Berserker/Soul Blade who does more damage but takes a lot more damage in return. Their reduction in durability is noticeable.

 

The Lagefeth Broodmother is tough on PotD when you just walk up and start the fight.

[Breckmoney]

 

IME overpenetration happens every time your PEN is higher than your enemy’s AR by 5 or more; it doesn’t have to be twice as much (although IIRC the tooltip does say so; it’s perhaps worth bringing up in the bug forum as the tooltip is probably a leftover from a previous iteration of the system.)

Ok yeah that changes the math dramatically to the point that we need to know what is intended before we make any other suggestions. If it's just five over for overpenetration then the Estoc becomes much stronger for example.

The first patch notes reiterated it being double pen for extra damage so I think it's safe to assume that anything different would be a bug if it in fact even happens. It also seems like something Josh would've called out while outlining all the other changes as he went though them several times.

[hilfazer]

Here is the Armor rate versus Damage multiplier in Dota/Dota 2, and I think this is agreed/tested to be reasonable for a good armor system.

 

 

In Dota 2, when target's armor rating is 0, damage multiplier is 1 means any damage will have 100% potential and do full damage. Any positive armor rating will gives damage reduction but in a diminishing way.

 

In PoE 2, enemy's Armor rate - your Penetration is their net armor advantage/disadvantage against you, so AR - Pen in PoE2 is similar to Armor rating in Dota.

 

If we make the (AR - Pen) vs damage multiplier in PoE 2 has a similar function as it is in Dota 2 (a steeper curve of course because u cannot have 20,30 AR higher than Pen in PoE 2 so a steeper curve to make small AR advantage worthy), then it can solve a lot issue we have now. 

 

And if it follows certain formula, it is easier to adjust or modded by players than it is now. Currently it is a Yes or No to me, if enemy AR is higher than my Pen, sorry it is a NO and I cannot do damage, if my Pen is higher I do full damage, this is a overworked system. If they can make the system works like the curve above, I believe AR can still be useful but not outshine other defense stats like it is now.

 

This is a Warcraft 3's armor system DotA stole. Give credit where it's due, please.

 

The problem with % armor reduction (one of them) is that low values do too little and high values do too much.

How much reduction do i have with 1 armor? 2%? This is nothing.

With 80 armor i have over 80% reduction. Even strongest attacks will become meh. And in case they are so strong they still threaten me they will completely obliterate anyone with 50% damage reduction.

[dunehunter]

 

Here is the Armor rate versus Damage multiplier in Dota/Dota 2, and I think this is agreed/tested to be reasonable for a good armor system.

 

 

In Dota 2, when target's armor rating is 0, damage multiplier is 1 means any damage will have 100% potential and do full damage. Any positive armor rating will gives damage reduction but in a diminishing way.

 

In PoE 2, enemy's Armor rate - your Penetration is their net armor advantage/disadvantage against you, so AR - Pen in PoE2 is similar to Armor rating in Dota.

 

If we make the (AR - Pen) vs damage multiplier in PoE 2 has a similar function as it is in Dota 2 (a steeper curve of course because u cannot have 20,30 AR higher than Pen in PoE 2 so a steeper curve to make small AR advantage worthy), then it can solve a lot issue we have now. 

 

And if it follows certain formula, it is easier to adjust or modded by players than it is now. Currently it is a Yes or No to me, if enemy AR is higher than my Pen, sorry it is a NO and I cannot do damage, if my Pen is higher I do full damage, this is a overworked system. If they can make the system works like the curve above, I believe AR can still be useful but not outshine other defense stats like it is now.

 

This is a Warcraft 3's armor system DotA stole. Give credit where it's due, please.

 

The problem with % armor reduction (one of them) is that low values do too little and high values do too much.

How much reduction do i have with 1 armor? 2%? This is nothing.

With 80 armor i have over 80% reduction. Even strongest attacks will become meh. And in case they are so strong they still threaten me they will completely obliterate anyone with 50% damage reduction.

 

 

As I said, we shall give the PoE 2 modal a steeper curve than War 3 modal, so 1 armor advantage still can have some significant damage reduction. The Dota/War 3 system is an example to smooth the armor vs damage reduction.

[MaxQuest]

I was talking about regular penetration on crit.

Let's say i have 2 points of armor above my enemy's PEN. I resist 50% of his damage when he hits me. But if he crits he penetrates my armor and deals full damage. Since it's a crit full damage is 125% of his base damage (if we ignore other modifiers).

This is quite a difference.

Valid point.

 

If my armor can reduce damage of enemy's crit to 25% i'm probably overleveling him.

What's the level of broodmother suggested by Joe? It's around 9? 

 

Not sure how many of you have played Dota 2, but IMO it has a better AR reduction curve than PoE 2.

Had played it, yes. Generally each point of Armor was providing an extra 6% to EHP vs physical damage (which was changed to 5% when 7.07 kicked-in).

 

The thing is, it won't work that well in Deadfire, because:

- it would render penetration weapons as completely subpar.

- we would be taking quite a lot of damage even if our AR is much higher than enemy PEN. For example at AR-PEN = 9: damage going through = 1 - (0.05 * 9)/(1 + 0.05 * 9) = 68.9%

[Olauron Mor-Galad]

If my armor can reduce damage of enemy's crit to 25% i'm probably overleveling him.

What's the level of broodmother suggested by Joe? It's around 9? 

 

According to bestiary, it's level 10.

[Nail]

I guess it's still to early to say.

From the table it's clearly that DR is better in Deadfire, but from what I recall you could boost deflection up to 300 in PoE I...

Probably it will be a case in deadfire too.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

It's hard for me to feel like this matters all that much. It's a difference of degree not of kind and deflection got kindof overpowered in the first game anyway -- after about midway through the game Eder became nigh-invulnerable just due to stacked deflection.  As long as it's still possible to make an effective high-deflection character, I'm not sure another stat making it redundant is that big a deal. Like, you can still make a high-deflection low-armor character, and it'll still work, you'll just be vulnerable to rare lucky hits overpenetrating.

 

Plus, we don't know what monsters and stuff will be out there. Just a few bosses or monster types with high Pen but low Acc could make deflection really strong. If there are lots of ways to buff AR that could help too. 

 

This feels like a fine-detail issue to be tweaked later after the big fixes are all in place, possibly even a post-release kind of issue.

[dunehunter]

 

I was talking about regular penetration on crit.

Let's say i have 2 points of armor above my enemy's PEN. I resist 50% of his damage when he hits me. But if he crits he penetrates my armor and deals full damage. Since it's a crit full damage is 125% of his base damage (if we ignore other modifiers).

This is quite a difference.

Valid point.

 

If my armor can reduce damage of enemy's crit to 25% i'm probably overleveling him.

What's the level of broodmother suggested by Joe? It's around 9?

 

Not sure how many of you have played Dota 2, but IMO it has a better AR reduction curve than PoE 2.

Had played it, yes. Generally each point of Armor was providing an extra 6% to EHP vs physical damage (which was changed to 5% when 7.07 kicked-in).

 

The thing is, it won't work that well in Deadfire, because:

- it would render penetration weapons as completely subpar.

- we would be taking quite a lot of damage even if our AR is much higher than enemy PEN. For example at AR-PEN = 9: damage going through = 1 - (0.05 * 9)/(1 + 0.05 * 9) = 68.9%

We can simply change the coefficient 0.05 to the original formula, the old one is DR = (0.05 * armor)/(1 + 0.05 * armor), if we change the 0.05 to maybe 0.5 or 1 for example, even 1 armor advantage will be obvious. And this coefficient is easier to adjust.

 

And I think they should make the number bigger, now every point of armor or penetration has a huge impact on battle, if number is bigger, there is more space to adjust things. For example now shield mastery from unbroken only provide 1AR, while Paladin aura provide 1 AR too, but for the whole team, there are surely some balance issue here. And it is awkward for them to do further adjustment because each point of bonus has huge advantage now.

Edited January 4, 2018 by dunehunter

[MaxQuest]

As long as it's still possible to make an effective high-deflection character, I'm not sure another stat making it redundant is that big a deal. Like, you can still make a high-deflection low-armor character, and it'll still work, you'll just be vulnerable to rare lucky hits overpenetrating.

It may not be as easy.

 

Let's imagine the following situation: your character is steadily attacked by an enemy. His accuracy equals your deflection, and his PEN equals your AR. He hits you for 10 damage on hit, and you have 100 hp.

 

On average he has 35% to graze and 50% to hit, so ~6.75 damage per swing.

Now imagine you can take 3 extra AR (and reduce all incoming damage furthermore by 75%) OR extra deflection.

 

Question: how much deflection do you need to achieve the same reduction on average, as those extra 3AR gave you?

Answer: in this situation you would need ~52 extra deflection.

 

(0.35*0.5 + 0.5 * 1) * 0.25 ~= 0.168 ~= (0.35-0.02) * 0.5

 

left part: grazes and hits softened by AR reduction

right part: hits eliminated completely and grazes lowered by 2, via high deflection

 

 

 

Plus, we don't know what monsters and stuff will be out there. Just a few bosses or monster types with high Pen but low Acc could make deflection really strong. If there are lots of ways to buff AR that could help too.

Yeap, this would solve this problem. Edited January 4, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

How much deflection do you get from a large shield? 

 

From memory, a small shield gives around 25 or so deflection, which is fairly big; three AR is also pretty big though -- that's, what, padded to scale? I can't check exact figs right now.

 

Overall I feel like the increased power of healing due to the health changes is probably going to be a bigger factor than anything. Right now I can see three ways to make a functionally invulnerable character in Deadfire: stack healing effects and just facetank things, stack AR (against all damage types), stack deflection (and other defenses). I suspect the real issue will be characters who manage to stack all three of those on top of each other, not the relative value of one of them vs the other.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy