Fighters and active abilities

[Lamppost in Winter]

How do you feel about Fighters, both in PoE and Deadfire? I've seen that where a lot of people see an appropriately low-maintenance class, others feel like they're pigeonholed into being a "boring" class compared to Rogues or Wizards, who have a lot of stuff to do.

 

If you want Fighters to have more cool things to do in a given fight, what would these look like?

 

Personally I thought Fighters were in a good place, actives wise, by TWM2. Probably more actives that I used on a regular basis than my Rogue, which was mainly active in the sense that they needed to be managed so they didn't get squished, and could exploit Sneak Attack opportunities. I don't think it's a bad thing that the martial classes aren't "doing" as many things as a caster is; what are the weapons for if not for simply hitting people sometimes? Besides, I like having some classes (Fighters, Rogues) that feel more mundane than the casters.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to something like Dragon Age: Origins' weapon-style specific abilities, though perhaps not as many, to avoid some of the redundancy those trees had. And since we've seen there's at least a Pommel Strike in the game, perhaps something like this is already on the way. I'd be wary of going too far and bloating them with too many abilities so they just feel like a different flavour of caster. 

 

What are your thoughts?

[Climhazzard]

They certainly are a boring class...  still.  Though a good option for multi classing I wouldn't make a single class fighter atm for anything.  

 

I'm not really going to jump the gun on judging them until we see all skills that will be available up to level 20 though. 

[CENIC]

Currently, if you are playing any other class, use melee weapons, and aren't planning to multi-class to something else, there is literally NO REASON to not multi-class with Fighter for Devoted.

[dunehunter]

I remember in the recent update video they show a Pommel Strike ability for Fighters, I wonder why it's not show in the beta Would be strange if it's a high level power.

[Climhazzard]

I remember in the recent update video they show a Pommel Strike ability for Fighters, I wonder why it's not show in the beta Would be strange if it's a high level power.

 

 

Mid tier ability, pommel strike!  End game ability, pommel throw!

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Pommel Lance

 

Pommel Beam

 

Multipommel

 

Octopommel

Edited November 27, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

More seriously:

 

There was a good post here https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/94797-a-case-for-not-adding-general-abilities-to-proficiencies/?p=1957186 listing a number of potential fighter abilities.

 

I think it's important for a passive fighter to be viable, but more actives wouldn't hurt either. A few AoE abilities especially could really help -- as it is I almost feel compelled to give all fighters a barbarian multiclass just because Carnage is so useful for weapon procs and on-hit effects. Fine line to walk though because you want barbarians to retain their AoE dominance.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[ShakotanSolari]

Dunno if it's just me, but as it is right now, fighter seems as if it's only there for other classes to multi-class into.

[KDubya]

It is hard to judge until we see the full ability tree and see how many fighter resources we have.

 

Right now the disciplined strikes is the best by far ability and a multiclass can get that with just a one point investment. Add in a weapon style and a stance and your three ability investment makes any sort of melee guy better. Not more exciting like a barbarian or Monk would or add spells like a wizard or cipher but just makes for a better melee combatant due to better accuracy, grazes, and stances/styles.

 

If high level Fighters had some sort of whirlwind power like early versions of Diablo 2 there be less reason to multiclass them.

 

The beta starts at level six and you'll be seven for the rest. After all content you get to eight but all is over by then. In these early levels multiclassing is just much stronger than a single class.

 

Plus having a durable tough guy who takes little to no micro is not a bad thing when you have a party to manage.

[dunehunter]

I feel that both Knock Down and Into the Fray need a little uptune, they kinda weak compare to other classes' abilities. Now fighters just pick/spam Disciplined Strike as a no-brainer ability.

 

Prone is not CC now so that's why knock down feels much weaker. Range of Into the Fray is kinda awkward, 10m seems to be much better for fighters to grab enemy casters into their melee range.

Edited November 27, 2017 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

Knockdown and Into the Fray are meh while Disciplined Barrage and esp. its upgrade that gives you 50% hit to crit is OP. It stacks with all other conversions and only costs 1 Discipline - cheap and powerful. Grazing and 100% hit to crit (e.g. Barrage/Berserker Frenzy) is ridiculous.

[drchocapic]

Fighter really seems like a multi-classing class in the current beta, there isn't much of a point in single classing them.

 

It kind reminds me of Icewind Dale 2 where taking a couple of levels in Fighter was almost always a good idea but you rarely went for a pure Fighter.

[Tamerlane]

Pommel Lance

 

Pommel Beam

 

Multipommel

 

Octopommel

Pomnislash.

[theBalthazar]

Knockdown and Into the Fray are meh while Disciplined Barrage and esp. its upgrade that gives you 50% hit to crit is OP. It stacks with all other conversions and only costs 1 Discipline - cheap and powerful. Grazing and 100% hit to crit (e.g. Barrage/Berserker Frenzy) is ridiculous. 

 

 

And this is an abilitie level what ? 5-6 ? ^^...

 

There is a balancing problem with that.

 

25 % graze to hit + 25 % hit to crit = far enough.

[kanisatha]

Dunno if it's just me, but as it is right now, fighter seems as if it's only there for other classes to multi-class into.

You are right. But it goes further than that. From the many threads in which this topic has come up it is quite clear that for many in these forums there is an implicit anti-fighter bias. It's been said even in this thread that fighters being a boring class is not a bad thing. Well, going all the way back to the PoE1 Kickstarter, Josh was very clear that a goal of PoE would be to ensure all classes were roughly equally viable as PC classes, and for me at least, being "viable" means being interesting and fun to play.

 

The image that I have in my head of my watcher is a fighter with a few levels of ranger mixed in, and I expect my character conception to be just as interesting and fun to play as any other character conception in PoE2. I don't at all think I am being unreasonable having this expectation.

[Ashjyr]

What about a system where abilities have additional effects if the target has certain conditions on them?

 

eg.

 

"Shove" does damage and Staggers a target.

"Ram" does damage, but Staggered targets get knocked Prone.

"Impale" does damage, but if target is already Prone, then do more damage.

 

"Pommel Strike" Staggers a target, but if already Staggered then becomes Stunned.

"Head Smash" does damage, but if target is Stunned, then gets Confused.

 

This way there is some team dynamics where you configure your party to synergise with each other. Intelligence also becomes important for characters who need the extra duration to combo off themselves.

 

Can also be extended to other classes in the same manner.

[tinysalamander]

I think they should just steal graft some tome of battle things onto the fighter.

[dam]

Pommel Lance

 

Pommel Beam

 

Multipommel

 

Octopommel

 

My Little Pommel

[IndiraLightfoot]

Pommel Frite

[Climhazzard]

Btw, I know disciplined strikes is being highly rated right now.  But when I was trying to figure out how to make the best skald I noticed that intuitive does not give offensive invocations any chance to graze at all, let alone a 100% chance to graze.  However aware from disciplined barrage and dire blessing did give offensive invocations a chance to graze, the problem is that it's overwritten by intuitive which will cancel your chance to graze.

 

So for a PotD skald you might as well give up on your chance to crit with that stuff and focus on hitting period, and for that dire blessing is your best bet and there was really no reason to go fighter besides dual wield spec and devoted bonuses.  The accuracy bonus from fighter stance is suppressed by devotions for the faithful too.

 

I guess my point is that if intuitive doesn't work for invocations, what else doesn't it work for?

Edited November 27, 2017 by Climhazzard

[dunehunter]

Btw, I know disciplined strikes is being highly rated right now.  But when I was trying to figure out how to make the best skald I noticed that intuitive does not give offensive invocations any chance to graze at all, let alone a 100% chance to graze.  However aware from disciplined barrage and dire blessing did give offensive invocations a chance to graze, the problem is that it's overwritten by intuitive which will cancel your chance to graze.

 

So for a PotD skald you might as well give up on your chance to crit with that stuff and focus on hitting period, and for that dire blessing is your best bet and there was really no reason to go fighter besides dual wield spec and devoted bonuses.  The accuracy bonus from fighter stance is suppressed by devotions for the faithful too.

 

I guess my point is that if intuitive doesn't work for invocations, what else doesn't it work for?

 

Isn't Aware Tier 2 Perception Inspiration, Intuitive Tier 3 Inspiration. If something Aware work but Intuitive not, it must be a bug.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

"Look, two pommels."

 

"Oh. I see. And most weapons only have one?"

 

"Exactly."

 

"Does that mean it's better? Is it any better?"

 

"Well, it's double the pommels, isn't it? It's not one. You see, most blokes, you know, just one pommel. You're off the hilt over here, all the way up, all the way up, you're on the one pommel, just the one pommel on your weapon. Where can you go from there? Where?"

 

"I don't know."

 

"Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?"

 

"Flip it to the other pommel?"

 

"Exactly. Double pommel."

 

"Isn't that just a club?"

 

[Pause.]. "It's a double pommel." 

[Climhazzard]

 

Btw, I know disciplined strikes is being highly rated right now.  But when I was trying to figure out how to make the best skald I noticed that intuitive does not give offensive invocations any chance to graze at all, let alone a 100% chance to graze.  However aware from disciplined barrage and dire blessing did give offensive invocations a chance to graze, the problem is that it's overwritten by intuitive which will cancel your chance to graze.

 

So for a PotD skald you might as well give up on your chance to crit with that stuff and focus on hitting period, and for that dire blessing is your best bet and there was really no reason to go fighter besides dual wield spec and devoted bonuses.  The accuracy bonus from fighter stance is suppressed by devotions for the faithful too.

 

I guess my point is that if intuitive doesn't work for invocations, what else doesn't it work for?

 

Isn't Aware Tier 2 Perception Inspiration, Intuitive Tier 3 Inspiration. If something Aware work but Intuitive not, it must be a bug.

 

 

 

I think it's probably intended because a 100% miss to graze chance would be very powerful for many abilities.  Of course this would have the consequence of making a tier 2 inspiration better than a tier 3 inspiration, so I don't know...

Edited November 27, 2017 by Climhazzard

[dunehunter]

 

 

Btw, I know disciplined strikes is being highly rated right now.  But when I was trying to figure out how to make the best skald I noticed that intuitive does not give offensive invocations any chance to graze at all, let alone a 100% chance to graze.  However aware from disciplined barrage and dire blessing did give offensive invocations a chance to graze, the problem is that it's overwritten by intuitive which will cancel your chance to graze.

 

So for a PotD skald you might as well give up on your chance to crit with that stuff and focus on hitting period, and for that dire blessing is your best bet and there was really no reason to go fighter besides dual wield spec and devoted bonuses.  The accuracy bonus from fighter stance is suppressed by devotions for the faithful too.

 

I guess my point is that if intuitive doesn't work for invocations, what else doesn't it work for?

 

Isn't Aware Tier 2 Perception Inspiration, Intuitive Tier 3 Inspiration. If something Aware work but Intuitive not, it must be a bug.

 

 

 

I think it's probably intended because a 100% miss to graze chance would be very powerful for many abilities.  Of course this would have the consequence of making a tier 2 inspiration better than a tier 3 inspiration, so I don't know...

 

 

This is a bit confusing but the devs explained why Intuitive not working

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/94835-bug-spell-still-misses-when-intuitive-is-on/

Edited November 27, 2017 by dunehunter

[Climhazzard]

Wow so it wasn't working as intended, nice to know...  though now fighter will be by far the best multi class choice in the game for everyone who isn't a buffer or summoner.