Can we have more skill points on level up?

[jones092201@gmail.com]

Particularly for the second set— things like history, streetwise etc. generally, that stuff opens up better narrative strings in dialogue, allows players more options for conflict resolution, and grants a stronger understanding regarding lore and world building.

 

Maybe give higher intelligence scores a bonus? Or, on initial stat selection, give a bonus to relative skill/attribute combos— intelligence =history, constitution = athletics, resolve= diplomacy, et al.

 

Understanding the need to reward players who invest in this or that, why create these interesting dialogue options that increase interest/immersion and then gate them?

[Logos]

First, "et. al." is an abbreviation of "et alii", meaning "and others" in the sense of "other people"

 

Second, I agree with you that the active and passive skills need massive rebalancing. In the demo, stealth, mechanics, and survival are massively more important than metaphysics, religion, and arcana. I can role-play my character as hard as I want, metaphysics is never going to give me the in-game usability advantage of mechanics. 

[Breckmoney]

First, "et. al." is an abbreviation of "et alii", meaning "and others" in the sense of "other people"

 

Second, I agree with you that the active and passive skills need massive rebalancing. In the demo, stealth, mechanics, and survival are massively more important than metaphysics, religion, and arcana. I can role-play my character as hard as I want, metaphysics is never going to give me the in-game usability advantage of mechanics.

They aren't balanced against each other, though. Unless I'm just misunderstanding you.

[draego]

The other issue is im not sure it would matter if you get more points then they would just rebalance the game with more points in mind. Also for skills there is party assist so if you dont specialize in something maybe your team can. I know the assist is not a 1 to 1 and i wouldnt want it to be but its something. There is always a balancing act with this though so maybe the beta will help that if some change is needed

Edited November 17, 2017 by draego

[Climhazzard]

My issue with it currently is athletics, which I feel is necessary for every character and prevents me from having enough active points to spend on active skills across my party.  For example, the character that finds hidden stuff should also be able to disarm traps, but atheletics/sneak/mechanics is really spreading the points to thin.

 

Not sure how if at all I would change it though, maybe change athletics to give a small bonus to stride or something (say 2-3% per point) instead of second wind.  Then you'd just need it for your strikers.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Climhazzard

[Logos]

 

First, "et. al." is an abbreviation of "et alii", meaning "and others" in the sense of "other people"

 

Second, I agree with you that the active and passive skills need massive rebalancing. In the demo, stealth, mechanics, and survival are massively more important than metaphysics, religion, and arcana. I can role-play my character as hard as I want, metaphysics is never going to give me the in-game usability advantage of mechanics.

They aren't balanced against each other, though. Unless I'm just misunderstanding you.

 

 

 

You are misunderstanding me. Going back to the first PoE, one of the initial design goals was to make every stat equally important. They didn't succeed in this in PoE (and they will not succeed in this in PoE 2, because, given the kind of game it is, combat challenges will naturally be more numerous), but more importantly than that, given the whole of the game, they wanted to make it more balanced. 

 

But they didn't succeed. I can't imagine what the corrresponding benefit of a metaphysics 10 score would be compared to mechanics 10.  Given the nature of the game, given the amount of skill checks they put into it, there is a very clear path of optimal skillpoint investment, and it is not announced on the initial character creator screens. 

[Breckmoney]

 

 

First, "et. al." is an abbreviation of "et alii", meaning "and others" in the sense of "other people"

 

Second, I agree with you that the active and passive skills need massive rebalancing. In the demo, stealth, mechanics, and survival are massively more important than metaphysics, religion, and arcana. I can role-play my character as hard as I want, metaphysics is never going to give me the in-game usability advantage of mechanics.

They aren't balanced against each other, though. Unless I'm just misunderstanding you.

 

You are misunderstanding me. Going back to the first PoE, one of the initial design goals was to make every stat equally important. They didn't succeed in this in PoE (and they will not succeed in this in PoE 2, because, given the kind of game it is, combat challenges will naturally be more numerous), but more importantly than that, given the whole of the game, they wanted to make it more balanced.

 

But they didn't succeed. I can't imagine what the corrresponding benefit of a metaphysics 10 score would be compared to mechanics 10. Given the nature of the game, given the amount of skill checks they put into it, there is a very clear path of optimal skillpoint investment, and it is not announced on the initial character creator screens.

I guess I just don't understand why you're comparing mechanics and metaphysics. They don't compete for the same resource. Unless you just mean that passive knowledge skills have an overall lower impact on the game than active skills?

[draego]

metaphysics 10 score would be compared to mechanics 10.

 

Im a little confused by this example you can have each of these they are separate skill buckets. The lower skills are just for lore/roleplaying in dialogue and other such actions. You make is sound like they are competing like in POE1.

 

Breckmoney beat me to it.

Edited November 17, 2017 by draego

[jones092201@gmail.com]

 

metaphysics 10 score would be compared to mechanics 10.

 

Im a little confused by this example you can have each of these they are separate skill buckets. The lower skills are just for lore/roleplaying in dialogue and other such actions. You make is sound like they are competing like in POE1.

 

Breckmoney beat me to it.

 

 

 

The lower skills are just for lore/roleplaying in dialogue and other such actions. You make is sound like they are competing like in POE1.The lower skills are just for lore/roleplaying in dialogue and other such actions. ---

this being the case, why limit our ability to use them with MC? Maybe give more pips from background, culture? something like that-- it obviously won't make a difference on the high end skill checks, but for the smaller ones, which relate mostly to world building and lore, players who like to see that information would get a chance to.

 

point is-- I can't see a reason why my rogue would spend a point in religion or metaphysics, because functionally bluff or diplomacy would work better for me. At the same time, I as the player want to be able to follow those threads without playing the game three or four times through. As much as i'd love to, I just don't have the time anymore.

 

I feel like Tides of Numenera did this well-- adding the points you could use to raise skill check percentage a certain times per rest-- effort, I believe it was called-- since the overland map is tracking time, and we're moving longer distances, a resource that replenishes even once a week could be used to get some of these cheks.

[cheesevillain]

 

point is-- I can't see a reason why my rogue would spend a point in religion or metaphysics, because functionally bluff or diplomacy would work better for me. At the same time, I as the player want to be able to follow those threads without playing the game three or four times through. As much as i'd love to, I just don't have the time anymore.

 

 

 

And I've had no problem hitting each and every dialogue skill check in the beta for all 9 dialogue skills, so long as I balance my party's dialogue skills. If anything, I'd say the skill challenges are too low currently.

 

Also, the whole design philosophy of PoE1 and 2 is that the story has enough non-linearity that it takes several playthroughs to find every thread. You're not going to be punished for not focussing on metaphysics, you'll just have the game not treat you as if you have expertise on animancy and the nature of the universe. And I won't get to feel like a sneaky wise-guy if I don't focus on streetwise and bluff. And that's a cool thing I love about these games.

Edited November 18, 2017 by cheesevillain

[Silvaren]

How party assist is calculated? Sometimes compansions have skill at level 3 and 2 and the game give +2 party assist, while sometimes one companions has skill at level 3 but the assist is only +2, different situation when companions have skill level 3/2/2 and party assist grants +4 or they have 2/2 and give together +3.

[Aramintai]

It's clear that party assist doesn't work properly in the beta. In some instances, scripted interaction for example, it is not taken into account at all. Gotta wait for a patch to see how it develops.

However I do agree that skills points right now are given rather stingily and some active skills appear to be way too useful to not be taken by everybody. Worst offender is indeed athletics.

And some classes, like rogue for example, will have a hard time properly roleplaying his role because there are so many active abilities that are basically that class' staple - mechanics, stealth, sleight of hand. Rogue also gets extra item slots which kinda hints at explosives, but there are simply not enough points for that.

Perhaps POE2 should adopt some more stuff from AD&D and give different classes varying amounts of active skill points. Rogues in AD&D had the most skills in that regard and were true jacks of all trade.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Aramintai

[jones092201@gmail.com]

In the fallout games, you can find books that bump various skills. That could utilized here— especially with an overland map and more passage of time. (Book takes two weeks in game to read)

Some cap on it, of course— ex. not all books can raise a skill passes a certain threshold. Like how reading high school history text books don’t provide the same amount of knowledge as more focused works of scholarship...and also, some books couldn’t be read without already having a certain skill level already.

[tinysalamander]

In the fallout games, you can find books that bump various skills. That could utilized here— especially with an overland map and more passage of time. (Book takes two weeks in game to read)

Some cap on it, of course— ex. not all books can raise a skill passes a certain threshold. Like how reading high school history text books don’t provide the same amount of knowledge as more focused works of scholarship...and also, some books couldn’t be read without already having a certain skill level already.

 

Which leads to megaming, though. And you have to do something about respeccing.

[AndreaColombo]

I too wouldn't mind extra skill points, but it all comes down to what the game is balanced against.

 

I assume all skill checks are set based on the assumption that you get 1 point per skill type per level, and you are not supposed to be able to pass all checks in the game in the same play through.

 

I'd love to be able to max out Alchemy and still have a few points left for some Athletics and Stealth, but wouldn't that be too much?

[theBalthazar]

2 x 1 seems are not enough. (Now)

 

2 x 2 skills point seems to be great.

 

2 x 3 too much (there is 5 companions...)

 

Two points you have a freedom. One, if there is killer active skill (Athletic ? : p) players will always take the same.

Edited November 29, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Nail]

Now imagine going through the content solo...

[Wormerine]

It's clear that party assist doesn't work properly in the beta. In some instances, scripted interaction for example, it is not taken into account at all.

 

I don’t think party assist to be a thing in scripted interactions. In those you tend to pick people who do certain actions, therefore only their skills come into play.

 

Party assist is implimented to give your party’s social skills a role in regular dialogue choices, as otherwise they would be pointless.

[Gromnir]

I too wouldn't mind extra skill points, but it all comes down to what the game is balanced against.

 

I assume all skill checks are set based on the assumption that you get 1 point per skill type per level, and you are not supposed to be able to pass all checks in the game in the same play through.

 

I'd love to be able to max out Alchemy and still have a few points left for some Athletics and Stealth, but wouldn't that be too much?

 

would be funny if obsidian gave folks their tartar sauce, and then doubled-all skill check thresholds.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[theBalthazar]

Perhaps not a tartar sauce, but a good mayonnaise for a solo character for exemple...

 

2 (Active and passive) x 2 seems legit.

 

There are 7 actives skills. So with 5 party members you not cover all the possibilities with one point each level (If actual level = cap)...

 

So, it is more ketchup+mayo here.

Edited November 30, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Gromnir]

Perhaps not a tartar sauce, but a good mayonnaise for a solo character for exemple...

 

2 x 2 seems legit.

 

There are 7 actives skills. So with 5 party members you not cover all the possibilities with one point each level (If actual level = cap)...

 

So, it is more ketchup+mayo here.

the obsidians have made it clear the game is not balanced for solo play... and as already noted, the notion that a single party run should be able to successfully overcome any and all skill checks is suspect.  you are s'posed to fail some checks.  makes choosing skills much more important, no?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Aramintai]

I've an idea about lack of skill points. Just gonna leave it here:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/94933-an-idea-dealing-with-lack-of-skill-points/

[Answermancer]

I do think that more skill points could be interesting, but it's a difficult balancing act. Like others have pointed out, if you give too much then they'll have to increase existing checks so that it's not trivial to meet every requirement.

 

I think doubling the amount of points and increasing requirements by 50% could feel okay, personally (or 2 points every other level but I think that's more confusing). But it's more of a feeling based on my Beta experience, not based on actual math or analysis.

 

I'm not a fan of giving more points by class. The last thing I want is a return to "rogues are for skills, not combat!" and similar crap.

 

Since we are currently in the middle of discussing issues with the attribute system, adding skill points to Resolve or some other attribute and rebalancing them could be interesting, but I don't see how to make it work in the current "every point matters" system. Obviously it would be silly if 18 resolve gave you +8 skill points per level.

[Lamppost in Winter]

To nick an idea from Fallout, what if we could tag a Skill at character creation that we want to focus on, and growth of that skill is doubled (maybe not doubled, but increased somehow)? 

[Wormerine]

To nick an idea from Fallout, what if we could tag a Skill at character creation that we want to focus on, and growth of that skill is doubled (maybe not doubled, but increased somehow)?

 

That’s what backgrounds do, no? Giving you a head starts on certain skills based on your past.

 

As the system itself (taing certain skills with better results per invested point) I don’t think it’s necessarly. Fallouts were single character RPGs which meant even if you focused on 3 skills, at some point you might want to upgrade less defining skills. PoE is Barry based, which means you will probably pick 3 skills per character and focus on them, rather than spread around points with one character.