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An idea - dealing with lack of skill points

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#1
Aramintai

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So, I don't know whether devs will increase skill points given at level up, tweak party assist some more or reduce skill checks values later on, but right now I feel that there are too many "must have" good skills and too few skill points to spend. Some classes by their role (fighter) need less active skills, some classes need more (rogue), while passive skills are needed by all.

 

So I've this idea - how about starting from 10 points every extra 3 points spent on an attribute give according skills a free +1 point?

 

Active skills:

Arcana (Intelligence)

Athletics (Strength)

Stealth (Dexterity)

Sleight of Hand (Dexterity)

Mechanics (Perception)

Explosives (Dexterity)

Alchemy (Constitution)

 

Passive skills:

Bluff (Resolve)

Diplomacy (Resolve)

Intimidate (Strength)

History (Intelligence)

Insight (Perception)

Metaphysics (Intelligence)

Religion (Intelligence)

Streetwise (Resolve)

Survival (Constitution)

 

So each attributes governs that many skills:

Strength - 2 skills

Constitution - 2 skills

Dexterity - 3 skills

Perception - 2 skills

Intelligence - 4 skills

Resolve - 3 skills

 

It's not equal among the attributes, but it doesn't have to be, because otherwise it would not be very logical and some attributes are useful enough as it is (Strength, Perception), while some need more love so that players won't dump them (Intelligence, Resolve).

 

So, for example, if I have a rogue with attributes like these:

Strength - 16 (+2 Athletics; +2 Intimidate)

Constitution - 8 (no bonuses)

Dexterity - 19 (+3 Stealth; +3 Sleight of Hand; +3 Explosives)

Perception - 16 (+2 Mechanics; +2 Insight)

Intelligence - 10 (no bonuses)

Resolve - 9 (no bonuses)

 

Feel free to bash it :)


Edited by Aramintai, 30 November 2017 - 12:41 AM.

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#2
theBalthazar

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It is a good start.

 

But no replace a another point by level.

 

Of course everything depends on the level required by the game. If it is tight, having only a few points will be insufficient.
 
If the system is large, your system will be viable.


#3
Aramintai

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It is a good start.

 

But no replace a another point by level.

 

Of course everything depends on the level required by the game. If it is tight, having only a few points will be insufficient.
 
If the system is large, your system will be viable.

 

Yea, it's unknown what the skills ceiling gonna be, but this system can easily be tweaked by changing value in extra attribute points.



#4
Gromnir

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as somebody who has complained 'bout having skill bonuses attached to classes, this suggestion makes the current skill situation worse, not better.  your example o' rogue is particular enlightening as you reveal a typical rogue attribute spread.  add another 2 points for mechanics, stealth, bluff, insight and streetwise?  well gosh, what skills is a single class rogue with typical stat spread encouraged by the mechanics to select?  functional reducing options.  a paladin tank with predictable high intellect and resolve? same thing gonna happen as there will be clear advantageous skills to be choosing.

 

and the notion that some classes Need more active skills is complete antithetical to what were intended 'ccording to the developers during poe development. is another reason why the stoopid inherent class skill bonuses shoulda' been dropped... surely don't want to add another layer o' d&d anachronisms into the mix. 

 

should be finding ways to open up skill choices rather than narrowing.  best first step is removing the class skill bonuses and making the backgrounds more vital. 

 

HA! Good Fun!


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#5
draego

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i hate to agree with Gromnir but i dont like the idea of attaching skill points to attributes. This will help pigeon hole builds. The skills should be open to all. I already dont like perception being the stat that helps find hidden items because that pigeon holes your build if you want to be that person to unlock stuff but dont want to invest in perception. So now you will have to bring two people in your party to find and unlocks stuff. it shouldnt have to be that tedious.

 

I am also not sure what this comment means.

 

some classes need more (rogue),

 

I assume that you mean you want your rogue to be the stealth and trap guy and something else guy. Well to me that is to bad that isnt a requirement for the class at all. And i dont think they need more active skills, you just want more and that is the choice you will have to make. I like that you can make your priest this person for the party or whoever. More options. more variety is what is needed, not trying to 'force' users into tropes. It should certainly be doable i agree to do that trope if you like but I enjoy that pillars separated the attributes from skills and also didnt force certain classes to be 'good' at those skills. Although they do give a slight bump to classes which should probably go away too.

 

I also find it funny that Gromnir is making arguments for more open design in this area when Gromnir was so against opening up general talents which would help classes be more open to variety then just doing their obvious designed roles.


Edited by draego, 30 November 2017 - 11:49 AM.

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#6
Gromnir

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nothing odd at all 'bout our pov.  from the start o' poe development, we noted the superiority o' a open and classless system.  however, classless is not the way obsidian went.  since we is stuck with classes, make the best class-based system is all we can hope for.

 

however, as we has already noted elsewhere, the classes is already much distinct w/o any consideration o' skills.  'ccording to the lore, a rogue is not a d&d thief.  what makes a rogue rougeish is their brutal fighting style... not picking pockets or opening locks.  does an obsidian character benefit from adding inherent skill bonuses which limit development options?  nope.  

 

classes is not ideal.  josh's deadfire pnp is classless.  is many advantages to classless.  nevertheless, we is stuck with classes.  don't compound class shortcomings by tightening the limits beyond the obvious combat qualities which necessarily must continue to be unique, insular and discrete.  

 

am complete consistent.  classes suck, but we got 'em.  

 

 

https://forums.obsid...e-ii/?p=1933423

 

https://forums.obsid...nd-5/?p=1461578

 

https://forums.obsid...-get/?p=1882806

 

https://forums.obsid...s-pe/?p=1507160

 

years o' agonizingly consistent posts 'bout classes and skills.

 

HA! Good Fun!


Edited by Gromnir, 30 November 2017 - 12:46 PM.


#7
Clean&Clear

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So, I don't know whether devs will increase skill points given at level up, tweak party assist some more or reduce skill checks values later on, but right now I feel that there are too many "must have" good skills and too few skill points to spend. Some classes by their role (fighter) need less active skills, some classes need more (rogue), while passive skills are needed by all.

 

So I've this idea - how about starting from 10 points every extra 3 points spent on an attribute give according skills a free +1 point?

 

Active skills:

Arcana (Intelligence)

Athletics (Strength)

Stealth (Dexterity)

Sleight of Hand (Dexterity)

Mechanics (Perception)

Explosives (Dexterity)

Alchemy (Constitution)

 

Passive skills:

Bluff (Resolve)

Diplomacy (Resolve)

Intimidate (Strength)

History (Intelligence)

Insight (Perception)

Metaphysics (Intelligence)

Religion (Intelligence)

Streetwise (Resolve)

Survival (Constitution)

 

So each attributes governs that many skills:

Strength - 2 skills

Constitution - 2 skills

Dexterity - 3 skills

Perception - 2 skills

Intelligence - 4 skills

Resolve - 3 skills

 

It's not equal among the attributes, but it doesn't have to be, because otherwise it would not be very logical and some attributes are useful enough as it is (Strength, Perception), while some need more love so that players won't dump them (Intelligence, Resolve).

 

So, for example, if I have a rogue with attributes like these:

Strength - 16 (+2 Athletics; +2 Intimidate)

Constitution - 8 (no bonuses)

Dexterity - 19 (+3 Stealth; +3 Sleight of Hand; +3 Explosives)

Perception - 16 (+2 Mechanics; +2 Insight)

Intelligence - 10 (no bonuses)

Resolve - 9 (no bonuses)

 

Feel free to bash it :)

 

Having not enough skill points to be good at everything is kind of the point of having skills and skill points in the first place and part of roleplaying and RPGs. The argument that there is too many must have skills is not really an argument for getting more skill points, but it shows an achieved design goal, which is good.

There has to be balance between the number of skill points and difficulty of in game checks, sure, but that is impossible to judge from the beta, since the area and the level you're at is taken out of context. We don't know at what level you are going to arrive to Tikawara in the full game and we don't know the difficulty of the area as well, it may be different from the beta.


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#8
Answermancer

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As I mentioned in the other thread, I really don't want skill points tied to class.

 

I think your perspective that "rogues need more" is a bit short sighted, there's no reason that rogues need to be the ones who can sneak, lockpick, and pickpocket. I think it just pigeonholes classes. Hell in by first Pillars run, my main (rogue) did have Stealth but my lockpicker was Durance. It worked well for me.

 

I am also not really a fan of flat bonuses to specific skills from attributes, again, I think it pigeonholes the character too much. With your proposed spread:
"Oh well now my Fighter must be my Alchemist and have high Survival, after all he has high Con and it would be a waste..."

 

Lastly, I'm pretty sure that having each attribute point matter is a goal of the system. It was in Pillars wasn't it? Flat thresholds like a skill point for every 3 attribute points go against this, and feel bad IMO (and also limit your attribute spread because you'll be incentivized to go with a 10 + 3x value).

 

I think adding "general" skill points to one attribute so that you could build your rogue to be a skill specialist would be cool. And we are discussing how to make Resolve work currently. But I don't know how to make this work without breaking the "every point matter" philosophy and how to deal with retroactive points when your stats increase from gear (although I suppose you could just ignore that aspect and only count your base stats... but then you're incentivized to put more points into that stat on creation with all character and then make it up with gear later... yeah I dunno).


Edited by Answermancer, 30 November 2017 - 03:19 PM.


#9
Aramintai

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there's no reason that rogues need to be the ones who can sneak, lockpick, and pickpocket.

Well, someone has to do all of these things. You can't silently get close to a person to pickpocket him unless you have stealth. You can't get past a person to lockpick a chest he's guarding if you don't have stealth (this was shown in one of the video updates, btw). You can't disarm traps with mechanics unnoticed by enemies if you don't have stealth.

 

Of course, you could have one character have stealth+pickpocket, another stealth+mechanics, but with party of only 5 and so many skills with so few skill points I'm afraid duping something will make that party miss out much on other skill checks. But if you leave it all to one character that character won't be able to take none of the other active skills. So your supposedly nimble rogue will be clumsy as an oaf just because he won't have enough skill points for athletics.

 

P.S. It's ok to bash the idea, guys. I know it's far from perfect, I just get this gut feeling that skill points will remain scarce and skill checks high, and it bugs me to no end because I won't be able to properly roleplay my character.


Edited by Aramintai, 30 November 2017 - 03:46 PM.


#10
Answermancer

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I don't know if it's different this time around or if I'm misremembering, but I thought in Pillars only taking things out of a container was a noticed crime, not lockpicking.

So if there was a (non-hostile) guard, I could go lockpick with Durance, then have my rogue sneak in and steal stuff.

 

Still, I see your point.



#11
cheesevillain

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I think that they could easily adjust the difficulty of skill checks if people are unhappy with them. A lot of people are going to try to make one character who can sneak, lockpick and pickpocket like Aramintai; if they can't, thee's going to be a lot of complaints.

 

Aramintai, could I ask what exactly about the current system do you think will be NOT be fixed merely by adjusting some of the skill checks down?



#12
Aramintai

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Aramintai, could I ask what exactly about the current system do you think will be NOT be fixed merely by adjusting some of the skill checks down?

Will they? I mean, devs didn't mention any skills tweaks anywhere at all.



#13
KDubya

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At the moment I do the following:

 

  • If i have a Rogue he maxes Stealth with one point in Athletics
  • One guy gets 16 Perception and maxes Mechanics with one point in Athletics
  • Everyone else goes heavy on Athletics
  • As far as pick pocketing goes I find it easier to go through their pockets when they are dead

The heal from Athletics with a maxed out Might basically becomes a second life, its probably too good as is.

 

If people want more skill points what about having some sort of bonus skill points be available as a weapon proficiency pick to go along with the general talents that they are adding there?


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#14
Answermancer

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If people want more skill points what about having some sort of bonus skill points be available as a weapon proficiency pick to go along with the general talents that they are adding there?

 

Yes, I like this sort of idea. It's a little tricky since the two systems are totally separated, and it could be weird to use a "combat" resource like a proficiency point for a "non-combat" bonus like a skill.

 

But I do think it would be cool if there was some way to get a few bonus skill points, and I'm not seeing any other great options. Maybe even just another "skill focus" selection at character creation that gives +2 to a preferred skill or something? But that would require new UI and be kind of redundant with Backgrounds. On the other hand it would give you a way to boost a skill without having to give up your preferred roleplaying background.



#15
Gromnir

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At the moment I do the following:

 

  • If i have a Rogue he maxes Stealth with one point in Athletics
  • One guy gets 16 Perception and maxes Mechanics with one point in Athletics
  • Everyone else goes heavy on Athletics
  • As far as pick pocketing goes I find it easier to go through their pockets when they are dead

The heal from Athletics with a maxed out Resolve basically becomes a second life, its probably too good as is.

 

If people want more skill points what about having some sort of bonus skill points be available as a weapon proficiency pick to go along with the general talents that they are adding there?

 

fixed

 

well, anticipatory fix.  the strength and resolve change is gonna alter who benefits most from athletics. is kinda the reverse (but not really) o' the muscle wizard complaints.  the builds gaining most benefit from athletics will be casters... and tanks.  high resolve is gonna see most benefit.  'course, a caster with 1 athletics and high resolve will get far less use from second wind than a barbarian with high strength and 10 points in athletics.

 

could be josh's personal biases as a skinny cyclist impacting game mechanics?  

 

am kidding.

 

even so, second wind will be a heal effect as 'posed to weapon damage.  as such one presumes the chief beneficiaries o' heightened athletics will be wizards, and priests and tanks.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit:  am gonna note how w/o the inherent skill bonuses for classes, the idea o' providing skill boosts for stats bothers us far less.  a high perception wizard is perfect viable, so turning your wizard into the party mechanic is not difficult to imagine.  heck, with the new strength attribute, perhaps athletics gets tied to strength and thus your melee wizard builds will get a boost to help compensate for the switch of healing effects bonuses from might to resolve.  is easy enough to come up with builds for any class which will be effective and are able to utilize a wide array o' stat distributions... regardless o' what one reads in a few other threads.  however, the inherent class bonuses result in a kinda double-whammy against customization.  if we make a cipher and don't want a rogue in our party, chances are we is gonna use the cipher for mechanics, which with your suggested stat based skill modifiers encourages us to put points in perception.  even so, 'cause o' the wide range o' possible stats any class might benefit from in deadfire, we would be far more willing to embrace the stats based skill modifier idea if we didn't already have anachronistic class-based skill modifiers. 


Edited by Gromnir, 01 December 2017 - 09:39 AM.






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