Injury System is way too brutal

[FreeKaner]

If there is no longer a limitation to healing, then the injury system should stay brutal and increasingly punishing, or else the result would simply result in no necessity for resting and food resource management. 

[PrimeJunta]

The injury system is only marginally tougher than in P1; getting two knockouts there will mean you're pretty low on head and sporting two injuries which means you prolly ought to rest too. I.e., don't get knocked out so often and you'll be fine.

 

I strongly prefer the P1 system however.

[draego]

The injury system is only marginally tougher than in P1; getting two knockouts there will mean you're pretty low on head and sporting two injuries which means you prolly ought to rest too. I.e., don't get knocked out so often and you'll be fine.

 

I strongly prefer the P1 system however.

 

I wonder if that is the loophole though. I saw others mention this already. Its all fine as long as the AI can knock you out fairly regularly but as soon as players become good enough and know the mechanics well enough that you can heal or constantly recover or avoid punishment there will be 0 consequences to combat as opposed to POE1 where at least you couldnt walk away from combat unscathed even if you constantly recovered during that one encounter. This happend to me in tyranny when you get the hang of the game and puff injuries disappear from concern becoming non factors. I suppose this puts pressure on the encounter design to be extra devious . 

Edited November 17, 2017 by draego

[Katarack21]

The injury system is only marginally tougher than in P1; getting two knockouts there will mean you're pretty low on head and sporting two injuries which means you prolly ought to rest too. I.e., don't get knocked out so often and you'll be fine.

 

I strongly prefer the P1 system however.

That's simply not true. Two injuries in PoE 1 do not automatically put you at 50% health. That's simply not how injuries work in PoE 1. In PoE 1, I could have 3/4 of my team go down four fights in a row and still continue fighting, longer if I have triage. Not so in this beta; in this beta if I have three guys get knocked out twice in a row, that's over half my team at 50% health and I'm *immediately* resting, because no way am I risking a combat scenario with that going on.

[PrimeJunta]

 

The injury system is only marginally tougher than in P1; getting two knockouts there will mean you're pretty low on head and sporting two injuries which means you prolly ought to rest too. I.e., don't get knocked out so often and you'll be fine.

 

I strongly prefer the P1 system however.

That's simply not true. Two injuries in PoE 1 do not automatically put you at 50% health. That's simply not how injuries work in PoE 1. In PoE 1, I could have 3/4 of my team go down four fights in a row and still continue fighting, longer if I have triage. Not so in this beta; in this beta if I have three guys get knocked out twice in a row, that's over half my team at 50% health and I'm *immediately* resting, because no way am I risking a combat scenario with that going on.

 

If you get three guys knocked out twice in a row, either you're playing badly or you're in an area that's too high-level for you.

 

This is also true for P1.

[Katarack21]

 

 

The injury system is only marginally tougher than in P1; getting two knockouts there will mean you're pretty low on head and sporting two injuries which means you prolly ought to rest too. I.e., don't get knocked out so often and you'll be fine.

 

I strongly prefer the P1 system however.

That's simply not true. Two injuries in PoE 1 do not automatically put you at 50% health. That's simply not how injuries work in PoE 1. In PoE 1, I could have 3/4 of my team go down four fights in a row and still continue fighting, longer if I have triage. Not so in this beta; in this beta if I have three guys get knocked out twice in a row, that's over half my team at 50% health and I'm *immediately* resting, because no way am I risking a combat scenario with that going on.

 

If you get three guys knocked out twice in a row, either you're playing badly or you're in an area that's too high-level for you.

 

This is also true for P1.

 

Skill-level isn't what's being discussed here. Say you have a player who has a series of *really* **** rolls. Say he's really stoned and forgets to use half his spells. Say he's a noob. Say he just sucks at this. Say he's unobservant and walks over three spike traps in a row. Whatever you want to say.

 

The point isn't the player. The point is the difference in severity between these two games in these otherwise identical circumstances. The injury system in PoE 2 is objectively more brutal. Two injuries in a row puts you in a situation that pushes you much harder towards rest than two injuries does in PoE 1.

 

I *enjoyed* being able to slog my way through hard, difficult fights multiple times, barely making it, calculating just how hard I could push my luck before I had to rest. Now it's just "Oh, I got knocked out twice, it's time to rest."

Edited November 17, 2017 by Katarack21

[PrimeJunta]

The point isn't the player. The point is the difference in severity between these two games in these otherwise identical circumstances. The injury system in PoE 2 is objectively more brutal. Two injuries in a row puts you in a situation that pushes you much harder towards rest than two injuries does in PoE 1.

 

On the other hand there's no health attrition. So yeah it has to be somewhat tougher to make up for that and still be meaningful.

 

I preferred the P1 system but if you have to get rid of Health/Endurance then the injury system is about where it ought to be to compensate IMO.

[Katarack21]

 

The point isn't the player. The point is the difference in severity between these two games in these otherwise identical circumstances. The injury system in PoE 2 is objectively more brutal. Two injuries in a row puts you in a situation that pushes you much harder towards rest than two injuries does in PoE 1.

 

On the other hand there's no health attrition. So yeah it has to be somewhat tougher to make up for that and still be meaningful.

 

I preferred the P1 system but if you have to get rid of Health/Endurance then the injury system is about where it ought to be to compensate IMO.

 

They need to remove less health per injury, IMHO. There needs to be a meaningful choice about whether I push on or not, rather than a hard "It's clearly time to rest" point.

[Breckmoney]

New players already spammed rest in Pillars 1. It's one of the reasons all these systems changed. People would go one or two battles spamming all their spells, rest repeat and then make the trek back to the inn for more camping supplies. While injuries here might be particularly brutal they are balanced out with unlimited resting. Incentives exist in the form of food to play well and not rest as often but it's more of a bonus from the baseline as a reward for not getting knocked out. I don't even think it's close which system is better for new/worse players.

[daven]

Maybe if there was some kind of partial injuries, basically make it work identically to the split health of the first game but represented via injuries since apparently so many people couldn't understand it in the first time.

[Katarack21]

Food is required to heal injuries, thus if you have two injuries resting *with food* is required--even if that means backtracking. Two knockouts and you *have to eat*. *I'm* sure as hell not going into combat at 50% health, that's for sure.

[Breckmoney]

I don't think there's any real way to totally run out of food. Like I'm sure it's possible but certainly not probable. You'll run out of good food for sure, which is the incentive to play well and not rest as often. But baseline stuff seems basically infinite.

[Christliar]

There needs to be a meaningful choice about whether I push on or not, rather than a hard "It's clearly time to rest" point.

You assume that this is somehow a meaningful choice and that the game bars you from it, it is not. Whether you can or can't continue is based on your skill level, like it has always been. Especially when the only negative is 50% less health and you can rest after every single injury anyway. The resting is there to be used, it isn't restricted enough to not be. Maybe that is what the problem actually is, too free resting, it needs to be restricted more. What other problems you might have, like feeling like a bad player if you rest spam too much, is on your head. Play better and you might not feel the need to rest after 2 injuries or even get those injuries in the first place.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Christliar

[Katarack21]

 

There needs to be a meaningful choice about whether I push on or not, rather than a hard "It's clearly time to rest" point.

You assume that this is somehow a meaningful choice and that the game bars you from it, it is not. Whether you can or can't continue is based on your skill level, like it has always been. Especially when the only negative is 50% less health and you can rest after every single injury anyway. The resting is there to be used, it isn't restricted enough to not be. Maybe that is what the problem actually is, too free resting, it needs to be restricted more. What other problems you might have, like feeling like a bad player if you rest spam too much, is on your head. Play better and you might not feel the need to rest after 2 injuries or even get those injuries in the first place.

 

"Git gud" again, hmm? Pro tip: "Stop sucking" isn't useful advice.

[Christliar]

"Git gud" again, hmm? Pro tip: "Stop sucking" isn't useful advice.

 

It's about identifying where the problem actually lies. "The game doesn't give me a meaningful choice when I can't even keep up with its demands!" is demagoguery to the highest degree. The infinite resting is a chance the game gives you, it's not a choice and seeking such in an obviously "everyone gets a medal for participating" system is dishonest. It doesn't matter whether you can or can't continue with 2 or even 3 injuries, it doesn't mean anything for it to be meaningful. It simply informs you that you aren't keeping up and for that it gets the job done, how's that for a meaning? The Vancian spellcasting alleviates this problem somewhat, not fully, of course, using your resources to their fullest potential has a gameplay aspect to it, but that's not what we are dealing with here. If you couldn't rest anywhere and at any point, maybe then can we talk about choices and the meaning thereof.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Christliar

[Osvir]

Some of the first posts here brings me back to a pretty hard encounter that I had to redo because of gung-ho playstyle the first time.

So, on my first time fighting the encounter, I was party wiped pretty severely. My Warrior got instantly charmed, and shortly my Beguiler (Cipher/Wizard) soon thereafter. That left me with a Rogue, a Wizard, and a Priest. I tried my best for as long as possible to survive, but there just wasn't a chance. Party wiped.

Second time, I hung back with my party, positioned them, and only aggroed the enemies with my Warrior. This went significantly better. None of my party members got hurt in any way, and Empower was key to winning it.

What do I want to express here?

If you're not careful, if you're not using tools the game provides for you, if you pick a harder difficulty than you can handle, if you play without knowledge or in some form of confusion, then the Developers either have to bring more clarity into a Tutorial to teach Players the system, or you need to start to understand what tools you can use to avoid being penalized/playing "around" the system (that means reading abilities, looking around, not playing in fast mode, YOU being observant, not your characters/avatars etc. etc.). If you don't wish to put in energy into your own gaming, there is a Difficulty called "Relaxed" and one called "Story" for this very reason.

For suggestions/solutions in a Tutorial:

Make the Player get hurt by a trap, make them get an injury and have a character explain why he got an injury and what the Player has to do to get rid of it. In Pillars of Eternity we had Heodan, and it was vaguely clear what we had to do to get rid of his injury.

I have not encountered a trap in Deadfire Beta yet, but it sounds like they have become more dangerous than in Pillars 1, and that injuries are quite more punishing as well. Something tells me this doesn't really have much to do with traps, or injuries for that matter, but rather "We knew how Health/Endurance system worked" and now it has changed into something else.

Regardless, some brainstorming thoughts on solutions would be:
- Health/Endurance again. We know it. Players who aren't hanging out in the forums, also know it. Developers know it.
- Revising the system. 5 injuries? 6 injuries? % chance to get an injury when stepping on a trap?
- Clarification in-game from Developers, how Injuries function and how Players can:
A) Avoid it (Traps, Empower, Combat)
B) Cure it (Resting and... potential items?)

IDEA:
What if you could find or buy an item that semi-cures the Injury? Say you took 1 Injury, now at 75% health. But if you use the item, you remove the debuff, and restore 1/2 of the lost health (12,5%). With this system, maybe 5 injuries would be better for instant death. (-20% per injury, +10% heal from X item). You're still not completely fresh from using the item, and would still need to Rest to recover completely. Hm... could even stretch it even further.

MATH (Using 5 injuries because it's easier with the %):
- 100% Health, no injury.
- 1 injury, -20% Health (now at 80%). Use healing item (will call it "Bandage"), heal injury, and now at 90%.
- Take another injury, -20%. Now at 70%. Using ite, +10%, 80%.
- Another injury, -20%, 60%. Healing, 70%.
- etc. etc.

Without the item, 5 injuries and dead.

- 100%
- 80% Injury
- 90%
- 70% Injury
- 80%
- 60% Injury
- 70%
- 50% Injury
- 60%
- 40% Injury
- 50%
- 30% Injury
- 40%
- 20% Injury
- 30%
- 10% Injury
- 20%
- 0% Injury

This way you could effectively take 8 Injuries (and heal them) without having to Rest. IF an item would be introduced. Can only used IF you have an injury, so it wouldn't be spammable to get back to full Health (Resting still required). So if you have 2 Injuries (-40%), you could use the item twice (+20% Health, and remove debuffs). Having 1 Injury, only being able to use the "item" once. Self explanatory?

Edited November 17, 2017 by Osvir

[dragubaba]

How about this: you treat that health bar like a countdown towards annihilation. It reaches zero, you die. You know, like it used to be in games. Getting an injury instead of a gravestone is divine intervention saving you from your own ineptitude.

Edited November 17, 2017 by dragubaba

[morhilane]

How about this: you treat that health bar like a countdown towards annihilation. It reaches zero, you die. You know, like it used to be in games. Getting an injury instead of a gravestone is divine intervention saving you from your own ineptitude.

I already suggested doing that.

 

But people will be either resting after every fight with the current balance or spamming health potions and healing spells instead of resting...

 

No easy solutions.

[Christliar]

 

How about this: you treat that health bar like a countdown towards annihilation. It reaches zero, you die. You know, like it used to be in games. Getting an injury instead of a gravestone is divine intervention saving you from your own ineptitude.

I already suggested doing that.

 

But people will be either resting after every fight with the current balance or spamming health potions and healing spells instead of resting...

 

No easy solutions.

 

The solution is limiting resting to a minimum. Both the IE games style Vancian system and PoE's Health/Endurance would work in that context. The problem is the players, not the system. People will scream and bitch, and moan, and cry that the game is too hard, seemingly oblivious to the fact there are 5 difficulties.

[PrimeJunta]

"Stop sucking" is too meaningful advice.

 

I've got a guy with one injury in my party. Guess what I did? Gave him a ranged weapon and put him at the back, and pay more attention to how he's doing in fights.

 

Again: if you get one guy knocked out three times in a row, you're either playing badly/at too high difficulty or are in an area that's too hard for your level. If someone is injured, adjust your tactics.

 

Resting is almost vestigial as it is. If they take the edge out of injuries, they might as well scrap injuries and resting altogether and go full goon. Personally I feel very strongly that they need to correct in the other direction -- bring back per-rest spells at least, if not endurance/health.

 

By the way, as the beta currently stands, it's clearly somewhat harder than P1. I'm playing on Veteran and it feels just a hair easier than PotD, but distinctly harder than Hard on P1. This may be because the party is certainly undergeared compared to what it would be in the real game. I believe this could contribute to your perception about the injury system. I.e., the problem still isn't injuries, the problem is getting knocked out too much.

Edited November 17, 2017 by PrimeJunta

[demeisen]

​I haven't been able to compare difficulty between the beta and POE1, but I feel strongly that POE1 needed a boost to the upper tier difficulties.  In the whole second half of the game, PotD was quite easy, which meant the game didn't have as much replayability as I'd like.  So independent of how injury / rest / etc systems will work, I really hope they make PotD legitimately difficult this time around.  I hope that PotD will be too hard for me to handle in my first play.  If it's not, then my second play is going to be unchallenging.  As Christliar said above, players should be aware there are multiple difficulty settings, and if the game seems too hard, you can lower it.

​

​That's not to take away from all the good points around specific systems and balancing.

​

[Breckmoney]

As it stands I think the beta is pretty tough. There are a few classes that seem pretty busted that can run over things, but presumably those will be pared back. Shifter in particular seems hilariously broken.

[Osvir]

This thread makes me think a bit out of the box and outside of Obsidian Entertainment and a little bit about Steam Reviews and Reviews in general. There should be a requirement to "Tick" some sort of "What difficulty did you choose?" when you make a review, then everybody can see what Difficulty you were pretty much reviewing. Applies to all games.

[Katarack21]

I don't think the problem is that people are playing on wrong difficulty settings or just suck at the game. The problem isn't that people are getting knocked out all the time; the problem is that getting knocked out, *and* getting hit by a trap, is *MUCH* more severe than it used to be.

That's the issue. Being able to get half your party knocked out, barely scrape through, recover, and continue on multiple times--scraping and fighting your way through a difficult area multiple times while calculating how far you could push this before *finally* resting--was a *feature* of PoE 1. That was the point of Health/Endurance split and camping supplies; for the developers to control how often you could rest and make the decision to rest or to push on *meaningful*.

Now that no longer exists. As soon as you get two injuries on more than two dudes, you rest. Period. It's no longer a debate, no longer a question, no longer an internal calculation about how long you can push this. There's no longer any question about how far you can push this difficult fighting. That long, difficult, calculating plan of how long you can go is now  just "fight, injury, injury, rest. Repeat."

[Osvir]

I believe that part of the problem is that Players perceive themselves to be better than they are. I did and do too. My inner monologue is pretty much "I played IE games and Pillars 1! Of course I'm a Veteran!" and what happened? I got crushed on the very first encounter I had (Delemgan and spores and spirits).

How did I adapt? I loaded the auto-save generated when I entered the area and I took it much calmer, calculated. Of course, metagaming because I now knew what was awaiting me but at the same time it gave me insight in how to approach combat and encounters in the future. I ended up wrecking the encounter instead of being wrecked. No injuries opposed to "Game Over". Can't get any more black/white than that.

Had to use some Empowers though.

My point is that, I believe, some Players, myself included, believe themselves to be better than they are. You need to accept your current skill level to be able to approach and tackle the next skill level.

My question now is... can you avoid getting hit by a trap? Can you avoid getting injuries (knocked out) in combat for as long as possible? And how do you do any of those things? What are the tools at your disposal to avoid injuries for as long as possible?

Edited November 18, 2017 by Osvir