how does the penetration mechanic feels like?

[Boeroer]

Yes, now grazing has become another tactical element you can add (and which is important). I'm still not sure but I think I like that despite my initial feeling about it.

 

Those early gauntlets are golden! Hope they also put them into the early finished game.

 

About PoE's grazing being too powerful with CC effects: right. If you grazed with a paralyze or petrifiy it's still a very powerful debuff - only shorter. I once suggested that afflictions should come in stages so that a graze would not only shorten the duration but would also apply a weaker form of affliction. Let's say Sickened is the weaker form of Weakened for example.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Boeroer

[theBalthazar]

The subsidiary question is : where are source of Accuracy.

 

Because miss is not a problem if you are accurate.

 

Also, the Beta has a bias : it is not our team.

[Ganrich]

Yes, now grazing has become another tactical element you can add (and which is important). I'm still not sure but I think I like that despite my initial feeling about it.

 

Those early gountlets are golden! Hope they also put them into the early finished game.

 

About PoE's grazing being too powerful with CC effects: right. If you grazed with a paralyze or petrifiy it's still a very powerful debuff - only shorter. I once suggested that afflictions should come in stages so that a graze would not only shorten the duration but would also apply a weaker form of affliction. Let's say Sickened is the weaker form of Weakened for example.

 

Yeah, I always thought that a graze should just be a debuff for the spell's duration, but a hit or crit should apply the CC. 

 

Example:  Mass Paralysis = A graze causes a debuff, but no hard CC (something like Hobble).  A hit causes CC.  A Crit causes CC plus the Hobble-like effect after the CC wears off.  

 

Maybe that is too potent, but I think it's pretty good on paper. 

[Breckmoney]

For spells I think I might rather see certain spells that aren't super powerful but have incredibly high accuracy bonuses. Something to get the debuff snowball started but that is also a trade off because it takes up a spell slot and cast for something that won't ever be very powerful on its own.

[IndiraLightfoot]

For spells I think I might rather see certain spells that aren't super powerful but have incredibly high accuracy bonuses. Something to get the debuff snowball started but that is also a trade off because it takes up a spell slot and cast for something that won't ever be very powerful on its own.

Yeah, given the investment in the few spells you get to cast during an encounter vs. the number of chances a martial character gets to swing with a number of important talents in play, I'd say spells should have high accuracy or even auto-hit if enemies are low-level or low-in-a-certain attribute, etc.

 

Seeing a 9% chance of Paralyze over and over again (which lasts like 10s, anyways), when I rarely got to cast it as a lvl 6 Herald vs those Lizardmen, that was depressing, to say the least.

Edited November 17, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[morhilane]

But replacing grazes with misses, not hits, totally surprises me. OEI has gone a long way since POE1 beta.

They went more toward D&D.

 

People actually complained about grazing during POE1 beta and how the combat wasn't "D&D" enough. Now people are complaining that grazing is gone and missing 50% of the time like in D&D.

 

The real issue is how enemies are balanced: every encounters is basically balanced as if it was a boss encounter (in D&D balance). And how spells use the same to-hit calculation as weapons when in D&D they all hit, but might be resisted but that's have higher than a 50% chance of success (unless you are under level).

 

POE1 dealt with that by giving easy access to damage multipliers (increase accuracy to crits more often, weapon enchant/talents, buff) and grazing which means you always did some damage unless facing something with extraordinary defenses. POE2 reduced damage multipliers sources* and grazing is now "optional". You deal less damage (in an encounter) in POE2 than in POE1 without even taking new penetration mechanic into account. We don't die as fast because mobs also do not graze and miss 50% of the time.

 

That leads to players in the beta focusing on dealing as much damage as possible when they hit, so focusing on bypassing penetration. We are still damage stacking, just going at it differently.

 

*Priest buffs were nerfed, Dire blessing is now a +5 accuracy (via + 5 Perception) and "can graze", it used to be +20% hits converted to crits (and level 3). Blessing was the level 1 Priest spell and that did +5 accuracy and +20% damage... As if that class haven't suffered enough.

Edited November 17, 2017 by morhilane

[fiddlesticks]

 

Yes, now grazing has become another tactical element you can add (and which is important). I'm still not sure but I think I like that despite my initial feeling about it.

 

Those early gountlets are golden! Hope they also put them into the early finished game.

 

About PoE's grazing being too powerful with CC effects: right. If you grazed with a paralyze or petrifiy it's still a very powerful debuff - only shorter. I once suggested that afflictions should come in stages so that a graze would not only shorten the duration but would also apply a weaker form of affliction. Let's say Sickened is the weaker form of Weakened for example.

 

Yeah, I always thought that a graze should just be a debuff for the spell's duration, but a hit or crit should apply the CC. 

 

Example:  Mass Paralysis = A graze causes a debuff, but no hard CC (something like Hobble).  A hit causes CC.  A Crit causes CC plus the Hobble-like effect after the CC wears off.  

 

Maybe that is too potent, but I think it's pretty good on paper. 

 

 

IIRC, Obsidian actually hinted at this being the approach they'll take in an early Q&A. Since it's not implemented in the Beta, I'm assuming it was either too complicated (now you have to keep track of two possible effects for every spell), too powerful, or doesn't mesh very well with the new affliction system.

[Doppelschwert]

Gracing can be permanently learned by fighters.

 

I think that the penetration system is a good idea, but pretty badly executed. Having discrete cut-off points just promotes min-maxing, and I'm thinking more about the defensive side for the party. If your overall armor rating is too low, you might as well be naked, since it doesn't matter. Conceptually, I think the new system is better than the one we had in PoE, but imho, there shouldn't be discrete cut-off points but rather a continous transition.

 

I shouldn't need to constantly look at all the numbers in the combat log to decide whether Endurance Aura should be temporarily disabled since the 1 point armor difference does/doesn't matter for the foes I'm currently fighting against. The trade-off for better armor, which is now a discrete measure, is recovery, which is a continous measure. That alone strikes me as awkward. Buffing armor while potentially not getting anything from it seems like a bad concept as well.

 

Damage should just be a piecewise linear function depending on the difference between armor and penetration. Josh can make the slopes around the turning points arbitrarily harsh for all I care, but at the very least make this a continous quantity.

 

From a more personal point of view, robes feel worthless now in melee, which wasn't necessarily the case in PoE. I'm expecting to take more damage while wearing them, but the current values are too high, at least imho.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Doppelschwert

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

I think that the penetration system is a good idea, but pretty badly executed. Having discrete cut-off points just promotes min-maxing, and I'm thinking more about the defensive side for the party. If your overall armor rating is too low, you might as well be naked, since it doesn't matter. imho, there shouldn't be discrete cut-off points but rather a continous transition.

 

I shouldn't need to constantly look at all the numbers in the combat log to decide whether Endurance Aura should be temporarily disabled since the 1 point armor difference does/doesn't matter for the foes I'm currently fighting against. The trade-off for better armor, which is now a discrete measure, is recovery, which is a continous measure. That alone strikes me as awkward. Buffing armor while potentially not getting anything from it seems like a bad concept as well.

 

Damage should just be a piecewise linear function depending on the difference between armor and penetration.

These are excellent points on penetration and armour. Like you, I think these two systems can be saved if they are staggered somehow instead.

[demeisen]

​

The real issue is how enemies are balanced: every encounters is basically balanced as if it was a boss encounter (in D&D balance).

 

I think that's what falls out of the move away from long term resources in CRPGs.  Once you add more and more ability auto-regen after every fight, smaller fights stop mattering, because they have no lasting cost to your party.  They aren't even interesting fights any more, because you can unload your ability inventory in a blaze of overkill (a problem POE1 had to some extent, especially later in the game).  That leads game designers towards removing smaller fights entirely, because they don't matter any more, and aren't fun.

​

​Contrast with long term dynamics, where you have to think carefully about how to handle small fights efficiently, and a series of small fights has a major impact on whether you make it out of a dungeon alive, because nothing is given back to you.  That however implies it's possible to become backed into a resource starvation corner, if you were too inefficient.  Most players seem to prefer the more short term style, so I understand why Ob and other studios are backing away from the alternatives.  I suspect it is the best choice from a business perspective.  I don't like it at all though :sad:.

​

 

[IndiraLightfoot]

​

The real issue is how enemies are balanced: every encounters is basically balanced as if it was a boss encounter (in D&D balance).

 

I think that's what falls out of the move away from long term resources in CRPGs.  Once you add more and more ability auto-regen after every fight, smaller fights stop mattering, because they have no lasting cost to your party.  They aren't even interesting fights any more, because you can unload your ability inventory in a blaze of overkill (a problem POE1 had to some extent, especially later in the game).  That leads game designers towards removing smaller fights entirely, because they don't matter any more, and aren't fun.

​

​Contrast with long term dynamics, where you have to think carefully about how to handle small fights efficiently, and a series of small fights has a major impact on whether you make it out of a dungeon alive, because nothing is given back to you.  That however implies it's possible to become backed into a resource starvation corner, if you were too inefficient.  Most players seem to prefer the more short term style, so I understand why Ob and other studios are backing away from the alternatives.  I suspect it is the best choice from a business perspective.  I don't like it at all though :sad:.

​

Heh, I'm one of those crazy people who downloaded mods for BG1 to make levelling superslow, since I love the first three levels (and perhaps five) so much. I love the challenge - that every encounter is a challenge.

Edited November 17, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[Answermancer]

Graze was one of the best mechanichs in poe. I hated the d&d stuff, where you could cast a super duper spell but a lucky roll could negate the whole effect. Graze was interesting both for melee attacks ( even if it favoured heavy armors) and for spells. You cast something on a high defences enemy? You can still aim for some effect!

 

I agree, the lack of grazing or SOME sort of mitigation for spells missing seems really broken to me right now. I get that this is how it works in D&D, but it sucks there just as much as it sucks here.

 

I don't necessarily mind missing more with regular attacks (although I loved grazes and also thought they were one of the best mechanics they came up with for PoE), especially since there are still ways to get grazes via gear abilities, but for spells and powerful abilities it just completely sucks.

 

For instance I spend 2 talent points and then spend 2 of my 5 rogue power points on a powerful Confounding Blind and it just misses and does nothing. How boring and frustrating.

 

The fact that you can get grazes other ways is cool... but it's also fiddly in that now I have to remember under what circumstances characters can and can't graze. It just seems like more mental micro management for no benefit.

 

Penetration I'm not sure about yet. I think the old system was way more intuitive (damage - armor = final damage, nice and simple), whereas now I have to basically mouse over with each attack and ability to get a basic idea of if I'll do any damage at all. It particularly sucks for dual wielding, I've got a sabre and stiletto but the mouseover only shows me one at a time so now I need to remember exactly what their pen values are all the time. It sucks. I understand the old system had edge cases like the lashes which weren't intuitive, but I can live with that when 90% of the other cases are intuitive (or they could come up with some other solution to just that problem).

 

I guess I don't really understand what the penetration system improves. I don't think it's more intuitive, I think it's less so, and I don't see literally any other benefit that it provides, neither to the designers balancing things or the players trying to understand the system.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Answermancer

[dunehunter]

Aren't there Inspiration called Aware and Insightful that let u graze? I mean this is a Cooperation game and u can always buff your team with Aware to make your spell/abilities work. To me, it hurt a bit to not have the initial graze but need some inspiration to make it work again, but nothing big.

[cheesevillain]

Aren't there Inspiration called Aware and Insightful that let u graze? I mean this is a Cooperation game and u can always buff your team with Aware to make your spell/abilities work. To me, it hurt a bit to not have the initial graze but need some inspiration to make it work again, but nothing big.

 

 

Of course, using teamwork to make your spells hit more accurately is a great.

 

Needing teamwork to have your spells hit at all, in any circumstance, sucks. And currently, that's the place we're at.

 

There's a pair of "gauntlets of reliability" that you can steal in Tikawara. They grant grazes with proficient weapons. Whoever I put those on immediately is the best damage dealer on my crew. 

[Katarack21]

What you do is you put those gauntlets on whatever non-fighter you have, and your fighter takes the "graze with proficient weapons" talent, and you are golden on your melee. Then you cast that +graze Inspiration on your ranged/casters.

It's the go-to strat I'm using atm.

[Boeroer]

Exactly. So either those gloves are overpowered for their price or the hit/graze mechanics need a adjustment.

 

Also some other issues with graze: Boreal Dwarfs get graze against Wilder and Primordial now instead of stacking ACC. Problem is if you pick a fighter with Disciplined Barrage or those gloves or Blessing or any other thing where you get grazes your racial ability is worth nothing all of a sudden.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Boeroer

[Katarack21]

Casters need some sort of graze mechanic to help with the long cast times and penetration problem--otherwise the long build up to constantly miss makes them feel useless. So it becomes a very strong temptation to always cast that inspiration on them, all the time, every battle.

[hilfazer]

I don't get why Obs is fighting common sense by making complete armor penetration grant bonus damage.

 

Complete penetration = full damage. Full is 100%. That's common sense a lot of games follow. I think PoE1 followed this logic as well.

 

Do they want players to feel sooo awesome?

Hmm... maybe they do. After all, they've changed difficulty level names to not hurt our ego.

[Lamppost in Winter]

 

 

Complete penetration = full damage. Full is 100%. That's common sense a lot of games follow. I think PoE1 followed this logic as well.

 

 

 

 Pen=AR gets you full damage. You only get bonus damage when you get Pen=2*AR

[KDubya]

 

 

 

Complete penetration = full damage. Full is 100%. That's common sense a lot of games follow. I think PoE1 followed this logic as well.

 

 

 

 Pen=AR gets you full damage. You only get bonus damage when you get Pen=2*AR

 

 

I see the bonus damage for over-penetration  as a needed buff to better armor.

 

For example an attack with 10 penetration doing ten damage does 13 damage against AR 0-4, 10 damage against AR 5-10 and 3 damage against AR 11+. Without the extra damage you'd be better off with no armor if you didn't have enough armor.

 

The fact that fighters get easy access to graze gives them a niche and a purpose. It balances out between choosing a barbarian for carnage or a fighter for grazes.

[PrimeJunta]

The penetration mechanic itself is fine. However there aren't enough ways for many/most characters to increase it. This means that low-pen weapons with no modal to increase it are useless for any of the harder fights. Moreover, non-martial classes don't have any feats that let them increase Pen, making them effective bystanders in many of the fights.

[AndreaColombo]

If the penalty for being but 1 point short of your enemy’s armor rating wasn’t so harsh, stacking penetration wouldn’t be the be all and end all of combat.

 

EDIT: To clarify, I like the mechanic itself; I just think it should be gradual as opposed to "1 point short? Your DPS is severely undercut and you become useless in combat."

Edited November 19, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[cheesevillain]

I'm feeling a little better about the penetration mechanic after playing with it a bit. It certainly makes weapon choice and armour choice feel more meaningful, and that makes all the martial characters more interesting. I think the type of system is much better than damage reduction.

 

But it neeeeeeeds tweaking.

Edited November 19, 2017 by cheesevillain

[Answermancer]

What you do is you put those gauntlets on whatever non-fighter you have, and your fighter takes the "graze with proficient weapons" talent, and you are golden on your melee. Then you cast that +graze Inspiration on your ranged/casters.

 

It's the go-to strat I'm using atm.

Yup, and that's just so fiddly and annoying just to make casters somewhat useable. And if you have more than 2 melee, now you have to remember which ones get grazes and which ones don't.

 

I think it's way more confusing and unintuitive than the old system, even if it did have "log spam". 

 

Casters need some sort of graze mechanic to help with the long cast times and penetration problem--otherwise the long build up to constantly miss makes them feel useless. So it becomes a very strong temptation to always cast that inspiration on them, all the time, every battle.

Totally agree.

[Archaven]

 

 

 

Complete penetration = full damage. Full is 100%. That's common sense a lot of games follow. I think PoE1 followed this logic as well.

 

 

 

 Pen=AR gets you full damage. You only get bonus damage when you get Pen=2*AR

 

 

2*AR for 30% more damage. That was kinda joke? I think for final build of the game it would be real hard to gain 2*AR unless you are fighting severely under-leveled mobs.