Multiclassing Update

[KDubya]

I'm liking this much more than anything that resembles DnD 3.xx style cheezefest. I started with Adv DnD back in like 1980 so the multiclass system selected at character generation always made more sense than the 3.xx style of grab anything anytime.

 

I'm thinking of a new Juggernaut based around Monk/Barbarian like a Mage Slayer/Shattered Pillar that has carnage and gains wounds when dealing damage with spell disruption. Or maybe one of those with Cipher. 

 

The Shattered Pillar gaining power by dealing not taking damage would let you go much more tanky with deflection maybe even use shields. Combined with a Cipher you'd get monk powers and Cipher Focus from doing damage.

 

I can't wait to see what Boereor can come up with in a system like this  

[prototype00]

Monk Druid! By all the fake gods of Eora, please let Spiritshape and Transcendent Suffering stack!

[PneumaticFire]

I'm loving this and the potential multi combos can allow us to shape a class and play style into how we've always wished they were, even more so with subclasses.

Eg. all the traditional D&D Pally fans desiring more divine/cleric attributes rather than the warlord flavour presented here.

 

I don't envy the task at hand for Obsidian in reasonably balancing them all, but I admire and look forward to it.

 

One concern I have is in the possible redundancy of certain single classes which naturally were built around having combined/similar attributes to two classes to now potentially better multis that play the same role. I understand that they are the only ones which can access the highest level abilities, but please make them special for all single classes (and single subclass) builds to remain desirable to choose in and of themselves!

 

(this is coming from someone who will probably multi on first play through anyway)

Edited September 21, 2017 by PneumaticFire

[DexGames]

As for Wizards concern, they also say a MC Character can't access the maximum Level Spells.

In the video's case, the Rogue / Druid Ability Tree allows access to Level IX's Spells/Talents. But not Lvl X, which a Lvl 20 Single Class will gain access to.

 

If I were to create a Wizard, I certainely won't MC it, therefore, will certainely not MC Aloth. I want my buddy Aloth to be a Lvl X Master Archmage ! 

 

EDIT : & All Those Skiiiills 

Edited September 21, 2017 by DexGames

[JerekKruger]

The Shattered Pillar gaining power by dealing not taking damage would let you go much more tanky with deflection maybe even use shields. 

 

My only concern with the Shattered Pillar is that they have a lower maximum wound cap, and that might mean there are Monk abilities they can't use. Hopefully this isn't the case, and instead they simply get less from abilities like Turning Wheel due to not being able to stack as many wounds.

 

Otherwise I have to say the Shattered Pillar looks like my Monk of choice.

[AndreaColombo]

Devoted/Shattered Pillar Lady of Pain.

 

You heard it here first.

 

XD

[MaxQuest]

However, I am interested what some of you minmaxers thing of it? Disappointed? Indifferent?

I haven't deep-thought all the consequences yet, but on the first glance on the new system, I felt a bit disappointed, yes.

 

Basically how I see it at the moment is: a whole extra layer of character building complexity... was removed.

There were 55 multiclassing combinations + 11 pure class options. And the layer I am talking about, is how exactly those multiclass combos could be built.

 

At lvl 20, we could have 19/1, 18/2, 17/3... 20 final variations. Now we are basically stuck with 10/10.

 

Additionally we are limited in how exactly do we want to progress. 

Imagine that Dragon Trashed is still obtainable at lvl 9 the earliest, and we want to take an Unbroken Troubadour.

It's quite obvious that as a player I would want to either:

- take first 9 levels in chanter, and only after that start investing in fighter, or

- take 4/5 levels in chanter, 1 level in fighter (such that you start with 2 discipline), 5/4 levels in chanter, and only after that dump the rest in fighter.

but not the alternating c/f/c/f/c/f route...

 

So the disappointment mainly comes from:

- the mentioned limitations

- additionally I've considered the initial (power source) system as really new and ambitious, and was eager to see how Josh is going to balance it.

- and ofc I am going to miss the potential sweet spots

 

On the other hand, the new system has it's PROs as well:

- it's far easier to balance (self-explanatory)

- and thus opens the possibility of 'safer' addition of prestige-classes and extra subclasses in the future.

- new system is more "new-player" friendly because of it's simplicity; although this reminds me of Hearthstone's "new players would be confused" argument a bit.

 

All-in-all, [if on the levels that grant us +1 ability we are free to choose the ability from both classes we multiclass into; i.e. can keep taking abilities from class A only, without being forced into alternating selection] I am ok with the changes, as there is still plenty of room for build optimization.

 

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/165559173611/hi-could-you-elaborate-a-little-on-the-troubadour. Just saw someone ask Josh

Andrea probably got a bit confused on the chant effect duration.

Let's take Dragon Trashed for example. In PoE1 it has [8s base duration] + [4s base linger]; for total of 12s Effect (DoT) duration (@10 INT).

 

> Brisk Recitation affects base duration. At max level bringing it to 4s.

> While INT and Troubadour subclass affect linger duration.

 

To put it into perspective (with Dragon Trashed dealing 20 damage per tick | all at 10 MIG):

- v1.a. base chanter (10 INT,  no BR): every 8s is applied DT DoT that deals 100.0 damage over 12s

- v1.b. troubadour   (10 INT,  no BR): every 8s is applied DT DoT that deals 116.6 damage over 14s

- v2.a. base chanter (20 INT,  no BR): every 8s is applied DT DoT that deals 116.6 damage over 14s

- v2.b. troubadour   (20 INT,  no BR): every 8s is applied DT DoT that deals 141.6 damage over 17s

 

- v3.a. base chanter (10 INT, max BR): every 4s is applied DT DoT that deals  66.6 damage over  8s

- v3.b. troubadour   (10 INT, max BR): every 4s is applied DT DoT that deals  83.3 damage over 10s

- v4.a. base chanter (20 INT, max BR): every 4s is applied DT DoT that deals  83.3 damage over 10s

- v4.b. troubadour   (20 INT, max BR): every 4s is applied DT DoT that deals 108.3 damage over 13s

 

So as you can see Brisk Recitation is great. It just so that Troubadour is not that much focused on invocations; but rather on dealing damage via DoT chants.

Btw think of Troubadour of Eothas: Minor Avatar -> Painful Interdiction (fort malus) -> Storm Spells (stuns + reflex malus) -> Dragon Trashed

Edited September 21, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Nail]

Never liked multiclassing thing, always preferred to go straight.

 

In my mind there is a Swashbuckler due these:

 

Rogue

- Sneak Attack
- Reckless Assault
- Shadowing Beyond
- Dirty Fighting
- Deathblows

 

Fighter
- Confident Aim
- Weapon Specialization
- Fearless
- Armored Grace

 

Still I don't know how all these things will work, so it's a matter of information!

 

Subclass is an interesting thing though...

Also thinking of Devoted pure Fighter

 

Is Devoted Assassin possible?

 

Maybe wizard with illusions... it's fun when you have around 300 deflection.

 

P.S. All thoughts coming only from PoE I experience, who knows how it will be in Deadfire

Edited September 21, 2017 by Nail

[Heijoushin]

That was the most exciting update we've had in a while! Those graphics are gorgeous! And the multiclasses look amazing! No matter how bad things get from now on in RL, I'm just going to push through so I can make it to 2018 and play Deadfire. 

[draego]

All-in-all, [if on the levels that grant us +1 ability we are free to choose the ability from both classes we multiclass into; i.e. can keep taking abilities from class A only, without being forced into alternating selection] I am ok with the changes, as there is still plenty of room for build optimization.

 

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/165555197431/does-the-new-multiclassing-system-still-allow. This is a link posted in in another thread. It looks like you can pick from either talent tree you want when you level up. So if you want most talents from one class you can do that. So its not as ridged as AD&D.

 

It also looks like they have simplified the talent abilities. If i am reading this post right you can pick what POE 1 calls talents/abilities on any level up you want. So i can pick multiple spells on back to back levels or maybe multiple abilities on back to back levels. not sure but that is how this post reads

Edited September 21, 2017 by draego

[MaxQuest]

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/165555197431/does-the-new-multiclassing-system-still-allow. This is a link posted in in another thread. It looks like you can pick from either talent tree you want when you level up. So if you want most talents from one class you can do that. So its not as ridged as AD&D.

Thanks for the link. So at least we are not hard-forced into alternating between classes.

 

It also looks like they have simplified the talent abilities. If i am reading this post right you can pick what POE 1 calls talents/abilities on any level up you want. So i can pick multiple spells on back to back levels or maybe multiple abilities on back to back levels. not sure but that is how this post reads

Yes, I also have noticed that Josh has included [Weapon & Shield Style] which is a talent, not an ability.

 

There is one thing that worries me in that post though: 1 spell slot equals 1 ability slot? If so, that's not good, not good at all.

In PoE1, on each odd level, fighter could select 1 ability, while priest and druid were learning 3-9 spells.

 

Not to mention that if a lvl 3 battlemage/warden/cleric would have to choose between taking knockdown vs a rank 2 spell... guess what he would choose. Provided that fighter abilities use resources from a common pool, while spells are limited to spell-usages per rank (conform to spell-progression table by power level).

Edited September 21, 2017 by MaxQuest

[draego]

 

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/165555197431/does-the-new-multiclassing-system-still-allow. This is a link posted in in another thread. It looks like you can pick from either talent tree you want when you level up. So if you want most talents from one class you can do that. So its not as ridged as AD&D.

Thanks for the link. So at least we are not hard-forced into alternating between classes.

 

It also looks like they have simplified the talent abilities. If i am reading this post right you can pick what POE 1 calls talents/abilities on any level up you want. So i can pick multiple spells on back to back levels or maybe multiple abilities on back to back levels. not sure but that is how this post reads

Yes, I also have noticed that Josh has included [Weapon & Shield Style] which is a talent, not an ability.

 

There is one thing that worries me in that post though: 1 spell slot equals 1 ability slot? If so, that's not good, not good at all.

In PoE1, on each odd level, fighter could select 1 ability, while priest and druid were learning 3-9 spells.

 

Not to mention that if a lvl 3 battlemage/warden/cleric would have to choose between taking knockdown vs a rank 2 spell... guess what he would choose. Provided that fighter abilities use resources from a common pool, while spells are limited to spell-usages per rank (conform to spell-progression table by power level).

 

 

Well those are wizard spell so they get grimoire to get more spells. Not sure how druid/priest work.

[Osvir]

Will Devoted+Monk get some unarmed option to only use one leg (kicking) or one fist?

 

Can think of a couple of cool ideas around that.

 

Also, does Multiclassing into Ranger allow you to skip the Pet?

 

For instance: Devoted/Sharpshooter?

[injurai]

Right now I'm feeling a Helwalker (Monk) / Shifter (Druid) combo.

 

Also Devoted (Fighter) / Sharpshooter (Ranger).

[MaxQuest]

Well those are wizard spell so they get grimoire to get more spells. Not sure how druid/priest work.

You have a point. Even in PoE1 wizards' way of learning spells was different from priest/dru.

Instead of learning 3-9 spells immediately on each odd level, they were able to learn 2 on each odd, and 1 on each even level. The upside was that they could pay-learn up to 9-14 spells per rank and end up knowing up to 80-100 spells at max level.

 

While if we combine the above link with this progression progression, it looks like wizard can learn 'permanently' up to 20 wizard spells, plus have access to those in his current grimoire. Now the question is: are the grimoires thick enough

[Osvir]

What's the ultimate tank? Unbroken/Goldpact?

 

Unbroken/Helwalker?

 

Pure Fighter?

 

Thematically, not mechanically, I also want to try either an Illusionist/Trickster, Illusionist/Wael or a Trickster/Wael. Perhaps redundant somehow, but I still think there's tons of interesting and opportunities from the Classes themselves.

 

Probably just better to go Illusionist/Rogue, Wizard/Trickster, Priest of Wael/Rogue or Wizard, etc. Just isn't as gimmicky that way

Edited September 21, 2017 by Osvir

[draego]

Will Devoted+Monk get some unarmed option to only use one leg (kicking) or one fist?

 

Can think of a couple of cool ideas around that.

 

Also, does Multiclassing into Ranger allow you to skip the Pet?

 

For instance: Devoted/Sharpshooter?

 

hmm i doubt it, for ranger. there is a specific sub class for pet-less ranger the ghost hear but i am not sure.

Edited September 21, 2017 by draego

[Boeroer]

Ghost Heart Lodge only has a pet that he can summon. So if you don't summon it you'll have no pet.

 

Novice's Suffering didn't work with Druid's natural weapons in PoE1 - on purpose. I don't think this will be different in Deadfire. However, an Ascetic (Shapeshifter/Shattered Pillar) can combine Natural DR + Iron Wheel and Wildstrike + Turning Wheel. With a Shattered Pillar it should be easy to reach your wound cap very quickly with the help of Wildstrike. If the boar still has wounding damage this will be great.

 

Also, Helwalker/Assassin seems to be a nice synergy with wound gaining.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

What's the ultimate tank? Unbroken/Goldpact?

 

Unbroken/Helwalker?

 

Pure Fighter?

Helwalker get +1 MIG per each wound they have - so it's nice for their fortitude.

But they also take +5% damage per each would they have.

 

So yeah, remain only Unbroken/Goldpact and pure fighter. Maybe there will also be a Fighter/Goldpact + Wizard, depending on how potent will Llengrath's defensive spells will be.

[Boeroer]

You mean a Fighter/Wizard or Goldpact/Wizard I presume?

[Enoch]

For a do-it-all backliner, I like the idea of a Wael-Fury Universalist.  Get the important Priest buffs & debuffs, get Illusion magic's crowd control, and get boosted nukes from the Druid list.  Plus, what's more Wael-like than transforming into a cloud of steam? 

 

That said, a pure-caster backliner is probably still going to benefit more from single-classing than most other party roles will.  Action economy will limit the upside of do-it-all flexibility-- getting to the higher-powered stuff earlier will likely give a bigger advantage. 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Enoch

[Osvir]

Unbroken Primary and Transmuter Secondary? Transforming into an Ogre sounds like a strong melee alternative.

 

Also, Unbroken+Berserker might be a good solo tank that can hold groups of enemies, less effective against bosses or single target enemies though.

 

A Black Jacket+Berserker might be a good combo in making the Berserker side manage more versatility, allowing it to go ranged so it doesn't damage other melee allies.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Osvir

[MaxQuest]

Unbroken Primary and Transmuter Secondary? Transforming into an Ogre sounds like a strong melee alternative.

Tbh, looking at stats of different Ogres from PoE1, and also how weak was Tenser's Transformation and Word of Changing in NWN2... I am a bit skeptical about Transmuter's transformation into Ogre...

 

"While in this form, spells are disabled, but physical attributes are increased" - if wizard will be able to use the form, while being silenced from Citzal's Martial Power, and also be able to keep Citzal's Lance upon transformation, then it's other story though.

Edited September 21, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Dr <3]

 

Unbroken Primary and Transmuter Secondary? Transforming into an Ogre sounds like a strong melee alternative.

Tbh, looking at stats of different Ogres from PoE1, and also how weak was Tenser's Transformation and Word of Changing in NWN2... I am a bit skeptical about Transmuter's transformation into Ogre...

 

"While in this form, spells are disabled, but physical attributes are increased" - if wizard will be able to use the form, while being silenced from Citzal's Martial Power, and also be able to keep Citzal's Lance upon transformation, then it's other story though.

Depends if the bonus from transformation stack in some way with citzal martial power or something like. Probably the transmuter will have the conjured weapon as well in the spell list. Actually one of the first thing i will try will be a transmuter wiz +/- warrior ( devoted) or barb ( any? Just looking for carnage) multiclass.

Alacrity + infuse vital essence+ llengrath protection+ some kind of evocated weapon + citzal martial power + beign an ogre sound exiting. Per encounter. And carnage from barb on top. In the end all will depend from balance and how the spell are divided in the wiz "trees"

Edited September 21, 2017 by Dr <3

[draego]

 

Well those are wizard spell so they get grimoire to get more spells. Not sure how druid/priest work.

You have a point. Even in PoE1 wizards' way of learning spells was different from priest/dru.

Instead of learning 3-9 spells immediately on each odd level, they were able to learn 2 on each odd, and 1 on each even level. The upside was that they could pay-learn up to 9-14 spells per rank and end up knowing up to 80-100 spells at max level.

 

While if we combine the above link with this progression progression, it looks like wizard can learn 'permanently' up to 20 wizard spells, plus have access to those in his current grimoire. Now the question is: are the grimoires thick enough

 

 

Here is a followup. https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/165588054981/hi-josh-amazing-update-i-was-thinking-are

 

Wizards will definitely have less spells than in POE1. I wonder if that is true for all casters. Basically casters need to be more focused now with less spells to choose from. I forgot about the new grimoire thing. Wizards cant choose the grimoire spells. You have to finds multiple books and switch them out during battle to cast different spells. I actually like this, I have always hated wizard classes in general because they tended to veer into god classes. POE wasnt so bad and i did enjoy a dual wield wizard i ran basically buffing myself. but ye take them down a peg is always seems good to me.

Edited September 21, 2017 by draego