smjjames Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) Anyways, Josh Sawyer has been agonizing about tokenizing ship names because English doesn't use gender prepositions for ships (although ships are commonly referred to as female, but english language doesn't do that) and when he tries to localize to other languages that DO use gender nouns (the Romance languages for example, french, spanish, italian), he's running into problems in deciding how, and there are similar issues with Polish and Russian, but for other reasons. Or tl;dr, localizing to other languages, especially when you're trying to deal with gender prepositions, cases, articles, can be a real PITA and he wants help and opinion from gamers. His 'mood is like this' type image pic: https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/948678512969375745 Twitter poll asking speakers of the mentioned languages how they feel about doing it: https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/948690992089088002 Tumbler post on it: https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/169284230541/the-problem-with-tokens edit: Transgender ship preposition nouns anybody? lol, jk. Edited January 4, 2018 by smjjames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
injurai Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Ships are referred to as being whatever the Captain is privy to, because Captains are supposed to be married to their ships. Also why can't there just be a generic prefix, article, adjective token. I don't really get the fuss. Seems like he's trying to control some sort of limiter feature that forces the player into some historic ship naming scheme. Just let people write in what they want. If I want ride the however many seas of Eora on Boaty McBoatface, the let me do so. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smjjames Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I think those were just examples of ship names in english to show what he's talking about. It has to do with the localizaton and how the game refers to it or something. I know Spanish uses both El and La to mean 'the', but El is the masculine article and La is the feminine article, or something like that. He's the kind of guy who agonizes over the details, so, not surprising that he would agonize over it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aramintai Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 His 'mood is like this' type image pic: https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/948678512969375745 Twitter poll asking speakers of the mentioned languages how they feel about doing it: https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/948690992089088002 Tumbler post on it: https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/169284230541/the-problem-with-tokens edit: Transgender ship preposition nouns anybody? lol, jk. Well, I usually play in English anyway, but I can see how it can be a headache for Russian localization. Probably not worth the hassle to make it work for all those problematic localizations. I like the easy fix suggestion about quote marks the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) Anyhow, Josh had a pair of Deadfire-related Tumblr posts yesterday. Nothing too earthshaking to report. On multiclass ability progression, and On MIG/STR/RES and a common martial ability pool. am feeling little sympathy for the min-max/munchkins who sudden find themselves needing actual make use o' all attributes... as were intended from the start o' poe development. the wailing 'cause o' the curbing o' obvious dump stats is not genuine worth developer concern. pine over the absence o' a busted quality o' the poe attribute system? *chuckle* nevertheless, we can see some value in an enhanced concentration quality attached to resolve. perhaps penetration? were something josh mentioned w/o providing any details. suggestion: 1) revert strength/resolve to might/resolve, with spell and weapon damage being affected by might. 2) return penetration to it's initial beta release form 3) allow a penetration bonus for concentration, modified by resolve. penetration were only an issue at release o' the initial beta 'cause there were such limited options for increasing penetration. a few weapons, spells, and abilities became essential 'cause o' penetration. however, if there were a way for any player to enhance penetration via an increase in resolve, then one could hardly complain o' a dearth o' penetration options. you want to wield a greatsword and be able to do damage with it 'gainst a foe with any kinda armour more significant than a moth-eaten christmas sweater, then you better invest in resolve. such a change would make penetration vital and would allow the player to make a meaningful character generation/development choice regarding penetration. the main drawback we see from such a scheme is it would likely require a complete retool o' armour/penetration numbers. if a player were needing two or three points o' resolve to see a single point o' increased penetration, then there is gonna be stoopid thresholds for resolve usefulness. such thresholds is antithetical to poe attribute goals. HA! Good Fun! ps our favorite crpg romance were ravel's hopeless love for the tno, but the concept o' crpg romance has become so twisted and perverted in the intervening years that such a story don't even get consideration when game romance is debated. the romance well has become irretrievably poisoned and as such am disappointed obsidian is taking the romance plunge with deadfire. is nothing new to say on the issue. as far as we can tell, the same reasons for obsidian avoiding romance in poe remain in deadfire. even so, while tangential and optional romance mini-games is inherent limited, they is undeniably popular. gender bias? the gender bias o' the romances is a ridiculous minor issue compared to the basic limitations o' any such optional romances. regardless, as we has observed ad nauseum, the optional nature o' such romances, while effective dooming 'em, makes 'em a minor concern for Gromnir. would rather see the romance resources spent elsewhere, but am not gonna ignore the popularity o' such piffle. am understanding why a developer feels compelled to create another broken crpg romance. we will be genuine shocked if we see any new perspective or insights on the crpg romance topic. fatigue. Edited January 4, 2018 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 4ward Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 here‘s my proposal to the ship-naming issue: 1) Ship‘s name should appear in italic font 2) When the player is asked to name the ship, hint that the name will be referred to in-game and give typical example sentences Say the name of the ship is princess, that‘ll look like this: eng: Deathwave shoots on Princess ger: Todeswelle schießt auf Prinzessin slavic: Smrtni val puca na Tri Princeze (i‘m not familiar with Polish/Russian, this is Serbo-Croatian) So, the player would be informed that for ger/fra/ita./etc. it would be better not to use the article before the name while players playing the Slavic versions, they would have to choose plurals or other words that fit in. So, i‘ll leave it to the player to figure it out and not ask Obisidian to invest so much effort into that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beyond The Sea Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) Ships are referred to as being whatever the Captain is privy to, because Captains are supposed to be married to their ships. Also why can't there just be a generic prefix, article, adjective token. I don't really get the fuss. Seems like he's trying to control some sort of limiter feature that forces the player into some historic ship naming scheme. Just let people write in what they want. If I want ride the however many seas of Eora on Boaty McBoatface, the let me do so. If it could easily be done Sawyer wouldn't have to ask. There is extra effort required here and he wants to find out if it's worth to put this effort in. Edited January 4, 2018 by Beyond The Sea 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormerine Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 The issue Josh is dealing with, is that in some languages the sex will change certain words in the sentence. So let’s say you say: Lord of Pain fired at Enemy Frigate Lord of Pain fired at Enemy Frigate However in polish it would be: Pan Cierpienia wystrzlił we Wrogą Fregatę But Pani Cierpienia wystrzeliła we Wrogą Fregatę Adjectives change depending on the sex of the subject. And the above is a very basic example. In simple sentences we rarely, for example need to use “I”, “he”, “she”, “it” as the information about whom the statement is made is often included within the form of adjective used. In short, allowing player to specify the “sex” of his ship would require changes to most sentences or very very smart writing to not be grammatically incorrect. As far as Josh inquiry - I really don’t know. I play English version precisely to avoid being distracted by translation problems. It would certainly bother me, I really don’t know if it would sabotage the experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aramintai Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 There is a solution to Josh's dilemma in this thread that seems to work for Slavic and French languagues (maybe others as well): https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95495-josh-sawyer-is-asking-frenchgeritaspaportpolishrussian-players-for-input-on-how-much-people-care-about-how-the-game-deals-with-ship-gendersyntax/?p=1967740 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormerine Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 There is a solution to Josh's dilemma in this thread that seems to work for Slavic and French languagues (maybe others as well): https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95495-josh-sawyer-is-asking-frenchgeritaspaportpolishrussian-players-for-input-on-how-much-people-care-about-how-the-game-deals-with-ship-gendersyntax/?p=1967740 Yeah. Stolen from the thread: Ship "Defiant" fires its cannons at ship "Black Pearl". Similar to the example I gave but avoids the problem of stating the sex of the subject. Smart wording as I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smjjames Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) There is a solution to Josh's dilemma in this thread that seems to work for Slavic and French languagues (maybe others as well): https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95495-josh-sawyer-is-asking-frenchgeritaspaportpolishrussian-players-for-input-on-how-much-people-care-about-how-the-game-deals-with-ship-gendersyntax/?p=1967740 Yeah. Stolen from the thread: Ship "Defiant" fires its cannons at ship "Black Pearl". Similar to the example I gave but avoids the problem of stating the sex of the subject. Smart wording as I said. It's a potential solution, sure, but it still reads a bit awkwardly because in english you'd say 'the ship, black pearl'. It'd work fine for a combat log, but not as well for dialogue or descriptive text. Edited January 4, 2018 by smjjames 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smjjames Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) edit: accidential double post Edited January 4, 2018 by smjjames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aramintai Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 It's a potential solution, sure, but it still reads a bit awkwardly because in english you'd say 'the ship, black pearl'. It'd work fine for a combat log, but not as well for dialogue or descriptive text. Well, I'm sure they can make a workaround to omit word 'ship' in English entirely if they want, but include it in other languages, it doesn't sound awkward in Russian, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smjjames Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I'm sure it sounds fine in Russian, but that also shows the problem he is grappling with because different languages have different grammar rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baltic Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I personally think ship “Defiant” sounds less awkward than not having a ‘the’ in front of the ship’s name. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 aside: the ship naming convention problem is not. is not a problem and am not sure why josh is making it so. doesn't matter what pronouns or articles russians use for ships. similar, doesn't matter if folks germans use fatherland as 'posed to motherland. is no germans or russians in deadfire. duh. solution is simple to establish via lore/dialogue/whatever the gender o' eora (or at the very least, deadfire archipelago) ships. problem solved. HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boeroer Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I could swear the Skulking Terror is german though... Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) "thank you to everyone who participated in the PFIGS/Polish/Russian poll re: ship names as well as to everyone who offered feedback (yes, including people on the obsidian forums, i do actually read them)." Edited January 5, 2018 by Enoch 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormerine Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 "thank you to everyone who participated in the PFIGS/Polish/Russian poll re: ship names as well as to everyone who offered feedback (yes, including people on the obsidian forums, i do actually read them)." Oh no, in that case quickly to “might” related forums and viciously argue in favour of strength/resolve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messier-31 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 "thank you to everyone who participated in the PFIGS/Polish/Russian poll re: ship names as well as to everyone who offered feedback (yes, including people on the obsidian forums, i do actually read them)." Oh no, in that case quickly to “might” related forums and viciously argue in favour of strength/resolve. Gee willikers, Batman. This "might" do the trick 1 It would be of small avail to talk of magic in the air... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 A rare tease from somebody who isn't Josh: Some kind of announcement related to Deadfire voiceover plans is coming "soon." 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooAmEye Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Anyone willing to place bets on how much will be voiced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormerine Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 A rare tease from somebody who isn't Josh: Some kind of announcement related to Deadfire voiceover plans is coming "soon." haha! Getting immersed in Divinity 2. ha! My money is that they are going full VO. Making a deal out of it if its anything less would be silly because... well D:OS2. As long as Deadfire will have writing worth being read/heard I am all for it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beyond The Sea Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Anyone willing to place bets on how much will be voiced? I don't know. I mean both Edér and Aloth were voiced by Matthew Mercer. Isn't he even more expensive now that he rose to fame as McCree and speaks at all those conventions? Is there enough money for all that? But if it is full V.O. I'm guessing this will either be part of a big release date announcement trailer or a separate PR story after the release date announcement ramping up to launch. I absolutely loved DOS2 for a complete voice acting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aramintai Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) Full VO sounds very expensive, but if the voice actors and not stars of the industry then maybe... What I'm hoping for is that all major characters and companions get a full VO, everything else is a bonus. Edited January 5, 2018 by Aramintai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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