Linguistic skills in PoE2

[Wormerine]

Here is a crazy idea I wanted to share:

I remember in one of the twitch-streams Josh mentioning that the annotaion system from Tyranny is being moved to PoE2: Deadfire. It will provide not only lore but also translation of foreign languages. Now I assume it is nothing big, just couple words, or phrases here and there. BUT WHAT IF:

 

There are many factions from different regions. They speak different languages. WHAT IF you could only understand languages you know as a character - for example in PoE1 I played as an Orlan from Old Vailia. That would mean my character understands Vailian. The game would provide translation of Valian phrases but not Aedyrian or language of native Deadfire tribes. On the other hand, I might have Aloth in a party and he might act as a translatior for the Aedyrian. It might give your character and party a better sense of belonging and origin.

Now, WHAT IF the foreign conversations weren't just small phrases. WHAT IF when walking up to a couple of Vailians talking you would be able to overhear a bit of their conversation. It would be a gibberish if you don't know the language, but you would learn something more, if you do. Some flavour text, get insight into their motivations, extra details about quest etc. Now if that would be implemented into quest design it could get interesting - Opening new ways, hints about possible ways to resolve situations, extra loot stashes. What is more, as a character you might get drawn to the faction which speaks your native language, as your interactions with them would be more... complete so to speak. I think it would be a nice and fluid way of connecting character with his background and the world around him/her.

Naturally, the idea isn't simple at all, as it would require dedicated writing and quest design. But hey, just throwing it out there.

[Sedrefilos]

It is somekind of interesting idea, though it could be tiresome to have to decrypt most of the dialogue. After all, everybody speaks the common language

Maybe only the part that side info could be revealed when you evesdrop people speaking their language but not the entire game!

On the other hand, I am sure everybody would take the skill, like the "scan thought" skill in Torment:ToN. I picked it up at no time since it gives me insight about everyone's motivations and thoughts. It's gonna be a no-brainer.

[Wormerine]

It is somekind of interesting idea, though it could be tiresome to have to decrypt most of the dialogue. After all, everybody speaks the common language

Maybe only the part that side info could be revealed when you evesdrop people speaking their language but not the entire game!

On the other hand, I am sure everybody would take the skill, like the "scan thought" skill in Torment:ToN. I picked it up at no time since it gives me insight about everyone's motivations and thoughts. It's gonna be a no-brainer.

Well, I didn't mean to suggest that languages should be a skill you can choose. Rather it could be tied to your background - so one language + commontongue per character. 

 

The idea is, that the language would come in play only in certain situations. In the example I gave in my first post: you aproach two Vailian merchants talking. You don't know language, so you don't understand them. They notice you, and you start conversation with you in commontongue. However, if you do know the language, you do pass the skill check, and can understand what they are talking about. Something you can reference when talking to them, or what might be helpful to you in some way (quest related, item related, just flavour text) etc. Naturally it would be silly, if longer conversations would be written in made up language with a translation in the tooltip.

[Baltic]

I think this does bring up questions of whether Aedyran is even spoken in Deadfire. Is there a good reason for it to be?

 

Edit: By this I mean will Aedyran be the native language, rather than being spoken for trade and such purposes. Just wondering how justifiable it will be to have certain characters speak another language almost fluently. I may be overthinking it.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Baltic

[Wormerine]

I think this does bring up questions of whether Aedyran is even spoken in Deadfire. Is there a good reason for it to be?

Illigal immigrants?

[Varana]

If there's regular trade, chances are high that there's a small colony of expats living in that trading hub. I can't remember whether there is regular trade with Aedyr, though. But Defiance Bay leaves the distinct impression that it's supposed to be a trading city.

 

I'd certainly not restrict language knowledge and learning to one or two languages. Outside the modern nation-state, people can be surprisingly multilingual, esp. traders, aristocrats, mercenaries, and scholars of all sort. Having knowledge of your native language and a lingua franca or another regionally spoken language, wasn't that rare in many areas.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Varana

[Aleh1811]

It would be cool if they used real life languages and knowing the language would save you from having to learn the skill in game

[Silent Winter]

It would be cool if they used real life languages and knowing the language would save you from having to learn the skill in game

not really- you'd get people complaining  that the game forces them to use google-translate.

I'm happy with the way language was used in PoE - certain small phrases used for flavour ["Di verus?" / "Eccosi"] that can be understood with a basic background in Latin/Italian or just from context, but nothing major.

[Aleh1811]

I dont think you can copy the text to a browser from the game. And if you are willing to take a picture of the text and then write it in a browser, what's the difference between that and using a walkthrough? Also, google translate doesn't do a good job with most languages, so its not like it would be any less of guess work,

 

ALSO I think its cool when a game forces or gives the option to familiarize yourself with knowledge that is useful in the real world.

[Heijoushin]

Well, this could basically be looked at as another reaction check to your PCs nationality. But as much of a language geek as I am, I think this idea would probably be more trouble than its worth. Think of all the poor writers who would have to pull overtime to come up with all the fantasy languages

 

PS Mi piacciono le frasi "Di verus" e "Eccosi". Valian e molto divertente!

Edited March 22, 2017 by Heijoushin

[Wormerine]

I dont think you can copy the text to a browser from the game. And if you are willing to take a picture of the text and then write it in a browser, what's the difference between that and using a walkthrough? Also, google translate doesn't do a good job with most languages, so its not like it would be any less of guess work,

 

ALSO I think its cool when a game forces or gives the option to familiarize yourself with knowledge that is useful in the real world.

If it was historical medieval RPG Josh is dreaming about than sure. I prefer my fantasy to be fantasy. What would you do if you would play in Italian and spoke to Vailian? Have it in chinese? )

[Messier-31]

Valian

 

Vailian

 

[Silent Winter]

I dont think you can copy the text to a browser from the game. And if you are willing to take a picture of the text and then write it in a browser, what's the difference between that and using a walkthrough? Also, google translate doesn't do a good job with most languages, so its not like it would be any less of guess work,

 

ALSO I think its cool when a game forces or gives the option to familiarize yourself with knowledge that is useful in the real world.

walkthrough / translate / whatever - the point was that it wouldn't really do much beyond sending some players out of the game (though maybe I'm weird in having a desktop to game on and a laptop to browse the internet on).  I also think that using real world languages would break us out  of the fantasy world we're in.  Your native language (or whatever you're playing in) doing for the 'common tongue' and other languages being con-langs works better for me.

 

I also think that knowledge should come from within the game for gaming stuff.  I'm roleplaying a character, not myself.  There'll always be some stuff you might do better at with outside knowledge (e.g. "I've played this kind of game before so tactics will be easier for me".) but I don't think it should be something you can't learn by playing the game.

[Aleh1811]

 

I dont think you can copy the text to a browser from the game. And if you are willing to take a picture of the text and then write it in a browser, what's the difference between that and using a walkthrough? Also, google translate doesn't do a good job with most languages, so its not like it would be any less of guess work,

ALSO I think its cool when a game forces or gives the option to familiarize yourself with knowledge that is useful in the real world.

 

If it was historical medieval RPG Josh is dreaming about than sure. I prefer my fantasy to be fantasy. What would you do if you would play in Italian and spoke to Vailian? Have it in chinese? )

Another Latin language? French, Spanish or portuguese. Would not look out of place. Perhaps even latin.

[Aleh1811]

 

I dont think you can copy the text to a browser from the game. And if you are willing to take a picture of the text and then write it in a browser, what's the difference between that and using a walkthrough? Also, google translate doesn't do a good job with most languages, so its not like it would be any less of guess work,

ALSO I think its cool when a game forces or gives the option to familiarize yourself with knowledge that is useful in the real world.

 

walkthrough / translate / whatever - the point was that it wouldn't really do much beyond sending some players out of the game (though maybe I'm weird in having a desktop to game on and a laptop to browse the internet on).  I also think that using real world languages would break us out  of the fantasy world we're in.  Your native language (or whatever you're playing in) doing for the 'common tongue' and other languages being con-langs works better for me.

 

I also think that knowledge should come from within the game for gaming stuff.  I'm roleplaying a character, not myself.  There'll always be some stuff you might do better at with outside knowledge (e.g. "I've played this kind of game before so tactics will be easier for me".) but I don't think it should be something you can't learn by playing the game.

You could gain the ability in game to understand the language. If you spoke the language you just wouldn't need to.

 

There is no need to browse the web, unless you are too impatient to wait till you gain that ability.

[Sedrefilos]

On the other hand... who's gonna sit and write dialogues in gibberish? It sounds sad... :D

"Hey, Will, I need you to write 1000 dialogue lines in gibberish. Only it must be consistent gibberish, you know? Like a real language but not real. Ok, you're briefed, get to work".

Edited March 22, 2017 by Sedrefilos

[AndreaColombo]

It would be a fairly gargantuan effort to develop all fictional languages in the setting (or at least those applicable to Deadfire) to a point where entire dialog trees can be written in them, though. Then it would need doubling down on them in English for the character who translates for you.

 

It would add realism/immersion, but the second time through the game it would probably already be annoying not to understand every dialog right away and essentially be forced to recruit party members based on background so that all languages could be understood.

[Varana]

On the other hand... who's gonna sit and write dialogues in gibberish? It sounds sad... :D

"Hey, Will, I need you to write 1000 dialogue lines in gibberish. Only it must be consistent gibberish, you know? Like a real language but not real. Ok, you're briefed, get to work".

Constructing artificial languages is fun if you like grammar and words like "ergative-absolutive", "status constructus", or "polypersonalism".

I do.

 

(It's been a staple of fantasy since Tolkien did it - for several languages at once. Or Klingon, or Dothraki. Just like fantasy maps, only way more complicated and therefore rarely done in-depth. Or well.)

 

Using real languages is not a good idea. Vailians may be inspired by Italians but they aren't. Using Italian doesn't do them justice.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Varana

[Silent Winter]

 

 

I dont think you can copy the text to a browser from the game. And if you are willing to take a picture of the text and then write it in a browser, what's the difference between that and using a walkthrough? Also, google translate doesn't do a good job with most languages, so its not like it would be any less of guess work,

ALSO I think its cool when a game forces or gives the option to familiarize yourself with knowledge that is useful in the real world.

walkthrough / translate / whatever - the point was that it wouldn't really do much beyond sending some players out of the game (though maybe I'm weird in having a desktop to game on and a laptop to browse the internet on).  I also think that using real world languages would break us out  of the fantasy world we're in.  Your native language (or whatever you're playing in) doing for the 'common tongue' and other languages being con-langs works better for me.

 

I also think that knowledge should come from within the game for gaming stuff.  I'm roleplaying a character, not myself.  There'll always be some stuff you might do better at with outside knowledge (e.g. "I've played this kind of game before so tactics will be easier for me".) but I don't think it should be something you can't learn by playing the game.

You could gain the ability in game to understand the language. If you spoke the language you just wouldn't need to.

 

There is no need to browse the web, unless you are too impatient to wait till you gain that ability.

 

Ah, fair enough.  But I still prefer small amounts of fantasy con-lang rather than large (or small) amounts of real-world languages.

[illathid]

I think having the hypertext entries used to help delineate between player and character knowledge is a great idea. I'm not sure about making a whole language system around it though.

[injurai]

This is one of those nerdy things that is really cool from a RP perspective, but would probably not be worth implementing "game-wide." Instead though, I could imagine a few quests, maybe a single really long quest-line that involves a dead or near-dead language. Like an in-game Latin that is used be some secret society, occult, or vanished guild. Where you are sent on a treasure quest or trading quest or uncover something. But the quest-line plays out a puzzle that revolves around a translating, decrypting, and "de-riddling" a series of illuminated texts.

 

Something that certainly can dazzle the player by leveraging the hyper-text functionality in a unique and engaging way.

[rjshae]

It might be entertaining to have a few characters that speak the common tongue poorly, but can communicate well in certain regional dialects. If you share a common background then you get the full interaction with more options, and you receive a reaction bonus of some sort.