I never finished Pillars of Eternity.

[1varangian]

That's just reinforcing that the tome does most of the work. Why are you people so butthurt about a mage having to lift to do more damage with spells?

That'd be the Geordie Shore mage.

 

Why do people like Yoda? Probably not because he's green but because of the immense power inside a small frail looking body which makes the character *interesting*.

[1varangian]

 

Not advocating anything just pointing out the obvious.

 

"Far from being occult or protected knowledge, most wizards' spells are just so incredibly complex and physically demanding that even practiced wizards cannot invoke them without the use of expensive, specially-enchanted tomes."

 

Right. I'd expect that a Wizard trying to create a new spell would depend heavily on Intelligence.

 

And the one who reads it doesn't rely on Intelligence?

 

Or do the stupid Wizards just point their finger at pics on the page like a tourist with a menu and then "stuff happens"? Why can't Ciphers or Rogues cast spells from Grimoires if you don't really need to understand the complex formulas?

 

It's like they wanted to change the Wizard class from established fantasy norms just to be different and it ended up a nonsensical mess. When they could have called it a Channeler and done anything they wanted without raised eyebrows.

Edited April 19, 2017 by 1varangian

[rjshae]

 

 

Not advocating anything just pointing out the obvious.

 

"Far from being occult or protected knowledge, most wizards' spells are just so incredibly complex and physically demanding that even practiced wizards cannot invoke them without the use of expensive, specially-enchanted tomes."

 

Right. I'd expect that a Wizard trying to create a new spell would depend heavily on Intelligence.

 

And the one who reads it doesn't rely on Intelligence?

 

Or do the stupid Wizards just point their finger at pics on the page like a tourist with a menu and then "stuff happens"? Why can't Ciphers or Rogues cast spells from Grimoires if you don't really need to understand the complex formulas?

 

It's like they wanted to change the Wizard class from established fantasy norms just to be different and it ended up a nonsensical mess. When they could have called it a Channeler and done anything they wanted without raised eyebrows.

 

Welcome to a different fantasy world with different fantasy rules. It doesn't have to satisfy any "norms" except its own. Perhaps Wizardry in Eora is like playing a musical instrument, in that it takes endless practice to master and become part of the muscle memory. That's why Ciphers and Rogues don't just pick it up. However, it takes a rather different type of mental capability to write a good song than it does to perform it. So it is with Wizardry spells.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

That's just reinforcing that the tome does most of the work. Why are you people so butthurt about a mage having to lift to do more damage with spells?

 

That'd be the Geordie Shore mage.

 

Why do people like Yoda? Probably not because he's green but because of the immense power inside a small frail looking body which makes the character *interesting*.

Yoda is from a different fictional universe where getting a gf makes you turn evil and some creatures in your blood lets you mainipulate an energy field created by all lifeforms. Why would you expect PoE's fictional universe to follow the same rules as Star Wars or Forgotten Realms? Magic is fantasy after all, and if lifting weights means your spells are stronger that is fine for a fictional setting.

[Messier-31]

It's like they wanted to change the Wizard class from established fantasy norms just to be different and it ended up a nonsensical mess. When they could have called it a Channeler and done anything they wanted without raised eyebrows.

 

Well, orcs and goblins are also well established fantasy norms, and yet you don't have them in PoE (which is a shame if you ask me).

 

In fact, how about a subjective list of well established fantasy cliche norms not present in PoE?

• classes relying on a single attribute (e.g. INT for wizards)
• vancian casting
• traps and lockpicking only for rogues
• halflings
• orcs and golbins
• demons (and other entities from hell)
• eternal animosity between dwarves and elves
• dwarves can't be druids or wizards
• healing magic
• different pantheon for different races/cultures
• portals leading to distant places
• etc.

As I said before - don't expect every system has to duplicate one another. You want to drink one type of coke forever? Try tea sometimes.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Messier-31

[Ninjamestari]

Well, orcs and goblins are also well established fantasy norms, and yet you don't have them in PoE (which is a shame if you ask me).

 

In fact, how about a subjective list of well established fantasy cliche norms not present in PoE?

• classes relying on a single attribute (e.g. INT for wizards)
• vancian casting
• traps and lockpicking only for rogues
• halflings
• orcs and golbins
• demons (and other entities from hell)
• eternal animosity between dwarves and elves
• dwarves can't be druids or wizards
• healing magic
• different pantheon for different races/cultures
• portals leading to distant places
• etc.

As I said before - don't expect every system has to duplicate one another. You want to drink one type of coke forever? Try tea sometimes.

 

 

That's not what we're expecting, we're expecting the system to make some kind of damn sense and to be a bridge between the game-mechanics and fantasy/reality, instead of this grotesque MMOified mockery of D&D we have now.

[PizzaSHARK]

I'm going to spare everyone my (extremely low) opinion about Pathfinder, and simply point out that comparing a tabletop game to a video game is dishonest, to put it mildly. You keep bringing up how a GM in PF will do this or that - Pillars has no GM.

 

Right, but Pillars like all of the Infinity Engine games is meant to emulate a tabletop environment.  Baldur's Gate was practically an homage to tabletop and it just went from there.  I'm not complaining about plot railroading etc, but more about how few options Pillars really gives you for handling encounters (or avoiding them), even compared to previous IE games.

 

There was a great deal more tactical depth to major, carefully designed encounters in BG2 than there is in Pillars... but unlike BG1, Pillars can't make the excuse of "well it's only for low level characters, of course their toolbox will be smaller!"  And this is with per encounter abilities in Pillars, something that largely didn't exist in BG2's 2E ruleset.

 

Additionally, it's the responsibility of the content creator to ensure that no stat is a true "dump stat."  If there are dump stats (like being able to run around with 3 WIS and get away with it), that's a failure on the part of the content's creator, not the game system - to an extent, anyhow.  We know that Obsidian are capable of amazing things, yet Pillars is so disappointing in so many ways.  If not for my adoration of the Eora setting and the certainty that Obsidian are capable of better, I would've just laughed at the idea of backing Deadfire.  Pillars is a decent game, but it's so much less than what Obsidian are capable of.  I really think they bit off way more than they could chew, maybe out of a felt need to recreate something on the scale of Baldur's Gate to entice backers for the kickstarter (I think they said something to that effect in the wonderful making of documentary.)  Tyranny, in comparison, is a much stronger game in my opinion despite arguably even worse balance issues.  They aimed for a small, focused experience and that's exactly what we get.  Pillars is just... a mess, overall.

 

Sorry, went off on a tangent there.

 

 

 

Again, the point here is that there are a ton of rather simple options that are relatively easy to balance, and each stat should be very distinct in the way it affects the character, instead of how things are now when essentially there's 3 damage stats, 2 resilience stats and 2 utility stats. Accuracy being both damage and utility. This is why the D&D approach is superior, it is a natural approach with intimate ties to reality with truly distinct stats that are unique. In PoE every single stat is encroaching on each other's territory at least a little bit, and they feel like arbitrary game mechanics more than something that represents the kind of character I play.

 

This pretty much sums it up.

 

In DnD, when you look at the stat spread of a character you can imagine what they are like.

 

In Pillars, when you look at the stat spread you can see micro modifiers to other stats.

 

 

Pretty much.  There are many different ways to roll and develop a character in D&D, but ultimately the character's attributes heavily define not only how they play, but how you view them.  Pillars stats are trying to cover so much ground each, and are sometimes applied inconsistently (as always "but Might is only ever used for physical actions!"), that they just don't have the weight that D&D's stats have... despite them operating much the same.  I increase my STR to 20 from 18, I get another +1 to attack and damage with melee weapons - not really far removed from increasing Might from 18 to 20 and getting +6% damage/healing.

 

I really think the way attributes interplay with feat prerequisites and skills is a huge part of why D&D stats feel more impactful.  Divorcing skills from attributes (and making skills so few in number and so limited in effect) was a major mistake, IMO.  I'm fine with mostly doing away with feat prerequisites (although I think there's value to feat trees to encourage character specialization and focus) and glad to see "feat taxes" gone.

 

 

 

 

Again, the point here is that there are a ton of rather simple options that are relatively easy to balance, and each stat should be very distinct in the way it affects the character, instead of how things are now when essentially there's 3 damage stats, 2 resilience stats and 2 utility stats. Accuracy being both damage and utility. This is why the D&D approach is superior, it is a natural approach with intimate ties to reality with truly distinct stats that are unique. In PoE every single stat is encroaching on each other's territory at least a little bit, and they feel like arbitrary game mechanics more than something that represents the kind of character I play.

 

This pretty much sums it up.

 

In DnD, when you look at the stat spread of a character you can imagine what they are like.

 

In Pillars, when you look at the stat spread you can see micro modifiers to other stats.

 

Because Wisdom is so much clearer than Perception or Resolve?

 

 

Rename Wisdom to Perception and it's still more impactful than Pillars' Perception stat.  As others have mentioned, Wisdom tends to be interchangeable with Perception (seeing as how Wisdom checks usually revolve around the character's ability to perceive and understand worldly or spiritual things), and Charisma tends to be interchangeable with Resolve (seeing as how Charisma activities typically revolve around a character's force of personality, although 2E rules also stipulated that Charisma was related to physical attractiveness as well.)

 

 

 

It's like they wanted to change the Wizard class from established fantasy norms just to be different and it ended up a nonsensical mess. When they could have called it a Channeler and done anything they wanted without raised eyebrows.

 

Well, orcs and goblins are also well established fantasy norms, and yet you don't have them in PoE (which is a shame if you ask me).

 

In fact, how about a subjective list of well established fantasy cliche norms not present in PoE?

• classes relying on a single attribute (e.g. INT for wizards)
• vancian casting
• traps and lockpicking only for rogues
• halflings
• orcs and golbins
• demons (and other entities from hell)
• eternal animosity between dwarves and elves
• dwarves can't be druids or wizards
• healing magic
• different pantheon for different races/cultures
• portals leading to distant places
• etc.

As I said before - don't expect every system has to duplicate one another. You want to drink one type of coke forever? Try tea sometimes.

 

 

 

- Classes still rely on a single attribute, or really pair, of attributes in Pillars.  Those attributes are Might and Intelligence.  Every single class, every single role, benefits from high Might and Intelligence and suffers from a deficiency in either.  There's also nothing wrong with having a class requiring one stat for effectiveness (whether or not multiple attribute dependent classes are a good thing is hotly contested.)

 

- Pillars still has vancian casting.

 

- Disable Device and Find Traps being Thief/Rogue exclusives went away with 3E, particularly as you went outside just the core rulebook.

 

- Orlans are interchangeable with Halflings.  They're clearly the "short humanoid race bigger humanoids bully" race replacement.  Different in fluff, identical in function.

 

- Orcs and goblins are missing, but kobolds are present and are practically identical to their D&D iteration (reptilian, obsessed with dragons and all things draconic, often found worshiping dragons young and old, to the point of being food/sacrifices for them.)  Where we'd fight orcs or goblins, we usually fight humans or more xaurips.  Functionally not much different.

 

- Strangely missing, to the game's detriment.  Outsiders make for interesting, challenging encounters due to often possessing spell like abilities, resistances, and immunities.

 

- That depends on setting.  Many settings may pay homage to dwarves and elves not getting along due to cultural differences and have NPCs snark each other, but it's rarely animosity anymore.  The further the setting moves away from Tolkien, the less likely you are to have elves and dwarves trying to beat each other up and more likely to have them just snark each other.

 

- Healing magic is in full effect in Pillars, what're you talking about?

 

- Again depends on setting, but in many settings there's just a single pantheon.  Some races or cultures are predisposed to some deities over others, but this exists in Pillars too with seafaring cultures often paying homage to Ondra, someone from Readceras likely being Eothasian, etc.  As mentioned, xaurips are interchangeable with kobolds.

 

- Yup, as with the missing demons/devils, it's to Pillars' detriment.  I wouldn't be surprised if we see it in Deadfire.  Extraplanar activities are always a great way to change things up.

 

 

Settings don't have to duplicate each other but when JSawyer (I think?) went on record as saying elements of Eora were essentially reverse engineered from the Forgotten Realms (Diet Tolkien) setting, it makes sense to analyze what was added and what was removed and think about why.

[Messier-31]

That's not what we're expecting, we're expecting the system to make some kind of damn sense and to be a bridge between the game-mechanics and fantasy/reality, instead of this grotesque MMOified mockery of D&D we have now.

 

@Ninja, I think we're really far from having no sense. I never felt it that way in my playthroughs, until it was brought up here, on the forums. Obsidians approach lorewise has sense in the world they created, because of this whole soul reasons (apparently). As long as there is a diversity between characters with different stats this is not a big issue to me, or a issue at all.

 

EDIT

@Pizza, I think you confuse health with endurance - you can't magically restore health, only endurance. Thus no healing magic.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Messier-31

[PizzaSHARK]

 

That's not what we're expecting, we're expecting the system to make some kind of damn sense and to be a bridge between the game-mechanics and fantasy/reality, instead of this grotesque MMOified mockery of D&D we have now.

 

@Ninja, I think we're really far from having no sense. I never felt it that way in my playthroughs, until it was brought up here, on the forums. Obsidians approach lorewise has sense in the world they created, because of this whole soul reasons (apparently). As long as there is a diversity between characters with different stats this is not a big issue to me, or a issue at all.

 

EDIT

@Pizza, I think you confuse health with endurance - you can't magically restore health, only endurance. Thus no healing magic.

 

 

Endurance is health in crunch.  The END/HP system is just simply Obsidian's attempt to reduce the need for "finish encounter, cast healing spells, rest, continue" gameplay that tends to be rather common in the other IE games and many tabletop systems.

 

You run out of END and you "die."  It is hit points in everything but name and fluff.

[Fardragon]

There is nothing "strange" about the "missing demons and other entities from Hell". It's a direct consequence of the setting's theology. The souls of the dead are recycled to the wheel, this is established as fact, no belief. No one goes to Heaven or Hell, no matter how good or bad they have been, or which gods they worship. With no Hell there are no demons to punish the wicked. They simply do not exist in this setting.

 

If any "outsiders" showed up in this setting they would be aliens from another planet, not demons out of Hell.

[Messier-31]

There is nothing "strange" about the "missing demons and other entities from Hell". It's a direct consequence of the setting's theology. The souls of the dead are recycled to the wheel, this is established as fact, no belief. No one goes to Heaven or Hell, no matter how good or bad they have been, or which gods they worship. With no Hell there are no demons to punish the wicked. They simply do not exist in this setting.

 

If any "outsiders" showed up in this setting they would be aliens from another planet, not demons out of Hell.

 

Well, there is something called "Hel" though (with one "L"), but no-one yet knows for sure what it is. It supposedly is beyond the Shroud.

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2vXYNAUAAAGnWg.jpg:large

[Fardragon]

If they are drawing on mythology "Hel" is a person, not a place.

[tinysalamander]

If they are drawing on mythology "Hel" is a person, not a place.

Realm’s name is the same, AFAIR.

[Ninjamestari]

@Ninja, I think we're really far from having no sense. I never felt it that way in my playthroughs, until it was brought up here, on the forums. Obsidians approach lorewise has sense in the world they created, because of this whole soul reasons (apparently). As long as there is a diversity between characters with different stats this is not a big issue to me, or a issue at all.

 

It has an *illusion* of sense, until you realize that the world they created is actually aiming for high realism in the renaissance setting. That's one reason this soul-based stats stick out like a sore thumb. For example, why would body size matter for a character's might, and thus his ability to perform feats of strength? If Might if the property of the soul and not the body, then an Ogre shouldn't necessarily be any stronger than an orlan with a strong soul, which would mean that ogres should've effectively gone extinct long ago due to not having any real benefits for their larger bodies. If the metaphysical reality is more important than the physical reality, why do people even bother with technology? The soul-stat-system makes zero sense in the context of the world they created and it breaks the immersion, it doesn't add to it.

[anameforobsidian]

 

@Ninja, I think we're really far from having no sense. I never felt it that way in my playthroughs, until it was brought up here, on the forums. Obsidians approach lorewise has sense in the world they created, because of this whole soul reasons (apparently). As long as there is a diversity between characters with different stats this is not a big issue to me, or a issue at all.

 

It has an *illusion* of sense, until you realize that the world they created is actually aiming for high realism in the renaissance setting. That's one reason this soul-based stats stick out like a sore thumb. For example, why would body size matter for a character's might, and thus his ability to perform feats of strength? If Might if the property of the soul and not the body, then an Ogre shouldn't necessarily be any stronger than an orlan with a strong soul, which would mean that ogres should've effectively gone extinct long ago due to not having any real benefits for their larger bodies. If the metaphysical reality is more important than the physical reality, why do people even bother with technology? The soul-stat-system makes zero sense in the context of the world they created and it breaks the immersion, it doesn't add to it.

 

 

Three things:

 

Isn't there already a thread on stats?

Physics still works in this world.  Metaphysics just also work.

Strong souls in general are fairly rare, and get increasingly so as time passes.

[Ninjamestari]

Three things:

 

Isn't there already a thread on stats?

Physics still works in this world.  Metaphysics just also work.

Strong souls in general are fairly rare, and get increasingly so as time passes.

 

 

1) Yes. Probably several, and they're being discussed in several threads that are not about stats. The current stats thread is quite a bit younger than the discussion on stats on this one.

2) No they don't, as your body in this world doesn't have a bearing on the strength of your muscles, clearly physics no longer function. The moment you declare that strength is the property of ones soul and not ones body, you abandon natural physics quite completely. Worse, physical strength doesn't even appear to exist in this world, and since the story and the setting do not reflect on the implications of that a single moment tells that this bit of 'lore' was made for the singular reason of justifying the ridiculous stat-system, not the other way around.

3) The "strong souls are rare" and "souls get reborn weaker" is an interesting story-concept, but has absolutely nothing to do with the character stats.

[Baltic]

Isn't that always an isssue with magic?

[zimcub]

Isn't that always an isssue with magic?

Not if strength actually exists without magic

[Baltic]

 

Isn't that always an isssue with magic?

 

Not if strength actually exists without magic

Which it does.

[zimcub]

No it doesn't 

[Baltic]

In the might stat they come together, sure but we don't know if there's a lore friendly reason for that and the way it's presented is not that your physical strength is decided by your soul.

[Ninjamestari]

Maybe not, but the way they presented the whole stat system when it was made was all about your soul determining your stats. Also, having the two together is just moronic, as it kills the 'feeble but powerful' archetype so many of us are so fond of. It doesn't matter how you twist the issue, the end result is, always has been and always will be that the way the Might stat works is detrimental to the game as a whole, and the people who defend it tend to do so out of some misguided sense of loyalty rather than any insight on the supposed benefits of the system. I have never ever heard anyone complain that STR should also represent spiritual power in D&D, and the whole notion is just damn ludicrous. Physical strength is a fundamental part of what makes a person who they are, and not having a stat to represent it properly is simply a bad idea.

[Baltic]

What they may have been going for with might, I'm not saying it's a good idea, is that either you're physically strong or because you're good at magic you can increase your physical strength that way for intimidation and getting rid of obstacles. I don't know.