That's one ugly boat

[Pope]

I just hope it rocks a bit in the water. Like the little barge in the gif on the main page.

In the update video the ship looks so unnatural in the sea.

 

 

I don't mind the hull so much, even though I agree that it doesn't look sleek enough for a sloop. But I would like them to get the proportions right. Part of what makes sailing vessels look so cool is towering, billowing sails. Especially the mainsail on this thing looks tiny. 

 

Ah yes, I didn't realise up until you mentioned, but this was something else that bothered me.

Making the ship rock (even just a bit) in the water and having the sails react to the wind would go a long way towards making it feel more natural.

[Casper]

i'd prefer something along the lines of a xebec, lugar or lugger. but a sloop would work too.

[Huinehtar]

Yes, indeed, a xebec would be a good choice.

 

So the thread is like the other one "Stop being Cog !" ?

->[]

[PrimeJunta]

As I said, I don't care about historical accuracy. I care that it looks cool, and it looks credible – seaworthy and consistent with the general level of nautical technology in the setting. If they have someone good enough to make a credible-looking boat that's not copying a reference, by all means go for it, but sticking a sail on a clog isn't the way to go about it.

 

Their model is neither. It's ugly and doesn't look like it's capable of moving through water, which is the second-most-important function of a ship. (The first being, keeping the sea on the outside, and I'm not even sure about that -- it looks rather top-heavy.)

[Lord_Mord]

 

So because work was put into creating this, we should lie and say we think it's great?

 

No, but don't use words like ugly. Just imagine, you created this thing. That is no thoughtful criticism. Also: "I think the flavour of the game in my opinion is this and that, so it has to look like this and that" is no thoughtful criticism. I think the Obsidian art department knows best, what's the flavour of the game, don't you think?

 

And after all this is a matter of taste, you can't criticise taste.

 

I very much dont like a lot of things about PoE2 so far, especially the companions. I even started a thread about it. But I would never ever state that something has to be a certain way.

[PrimeJunta]

No, but don't use words like ugly. Just imagine, you created this thing. That is no thoughtful criticism. Also: "I think the flavour of the game in my opinion is this and that, so it has to look like this and that" is no thoughtful criticism. I think the Obsidian art department knows best, what's the flavour of the game, don't you think?

 

And after all this is a matter of taste, you can't criticise taste.

 

I very much dont like a lot of things about PoE2 so far, especially the companions. I even started a thread about it. But I would never ever state that something has to be a certain way.

 

In Pillars, Obsidian has consistently used historical designs as models, then riffed off them. Sometimes they're rushed and things get a bit weird, like in Caed Nua for example, but even there they know why it looks like it does – Pallegina even comments that it's a fortress in the old style, and they don't build them like that anymore because they're too vulnerable to cannons. They do all kinds of wacky fantasy stuff too, like adra structures and those Engwithan machines, and that's all great. Their architectural designs for Neketaka look fantastic; they're carefully thought-out, mixing a variety of real-world influences in interesting ways and then developing them further to suit the direction they want to go.

 

I think it's fair to say that they want their artefacts to look functional. Their weapons may not have geek-perfect names, but they look like functional weapons somewhat exaggerated for aesthetic reasons. Same for their armour. Same for their water- and windmills. 

 

Having a ship design which is obviously non-functional sticks out, more so because it's supposed to be one of the coolest things in the game -- they even kept it back for the final crunch of the Figstarter. 

 

And yes it's ugly. If you think otherwise, you have really poor taste. In ships at least. Which doesn't make you a bad person, just one with poor taste in ships.

[evilcat]

Oversized triangle sails would be cool on several poles. Caravel

Non european Junk

Big fat catamaran.

[Madscientist]

I have to agree with the OP.

The ship shown in the game does not look fast at all.

You cannot have a big aftercastle and a big sail like the one shown in the game image at the same time.

The wood thing at the lower end of the big sail goes too much up. (sorry, I do not know the right sailing terms)

They really tried to put cutter sails on a cog body and the result is not impressive.

 

The setting in the game is similar to the real worlds 16th or maybe even 17th century.

Cogs were used more than 300 years earlier and mostly on the baltic sea.

 

A sloop/cutter would probably be fitting to the setting of the game if you want a small and fast pirate ship with cannons.

Now let us attack some spanish valian galleons.

 

Gives the setting of deadfire, I would like to see some kind of large polynesian catamarans.

[Aotrs Commander]

 

 

So because work was put into creating this, we should lie and say we think it's great?

 

No, but don't use words like ugly. Just imagine, you created this thing. That is no thoughtful criticism. Also: "I think the flavour of the game in my opinion is this and that, so it has to look like this and that" is no thoughtful criticism. I think the Obsidian art department knows best, what's the flavour of the game, don't you think?

 

And after all this is a matter of taste, you can't criticise taste.

 

I very much dont like a lot of things about PoE2 so far, especially the companions. I even started a thread about it. But I would never ever state that something has to be a certain way.

 

 

As someone who designs wargames models for a living, I'm afraid I have to say yes. Yes, you should absolutely speak your mind. If I design something, I'd rather someone tell me what they actually think that not. Hell, I might even agree with thme, because sometimes you need that second opinion to keep your head not implanted up your own arse. But even if you don't, you can at least make an informed decision on whether or not something is good or not and whether the complainant is making a taste-based opinion or whether they have a point.

 

Now, if PrimeJunta had just said "that is a ugly ship" and left it at that, that would be something you probably would dismiss (ditto if it was full of expletives and/or invective). But he explained his reasoning (somewthing that I, as a not-a-boat-person would not have picked up otherwise, so I thank him for providing a more knowledgeble viewpoint) at that is the very best sort of critism, because it is USEFUL.

 

Sometimes, you make a thing you think is great and then someone says something and you stop and have a think and realise it really isn't and you have to scrap it (or salvage what you can).

 

Just because someone spent time on it does not exclude it from harsh judgement (doubly especially so if the thing is or is part of something to be sold).

 

 

 

(As an aside, for one thing, if someone designs a spacecraft like looks like a maritime sailing ship with a mast up to and whatnot, for example, I for one will have no hesitation saying it looks crap. (I have never seen any evidence to the contrary.))

Edited February 24, 2017 by Aotrs Commander

[Doppelschwert]

This thread reminds me of the thread during the beta of PoE where it was pointed out that the watermill in dyrford village is turning the wrong way...

[Sakai]

And yes it's ugly. If you think otherwise, you have really poor taste. In ships at least. Which doesn't make you a bad person, just one with poor taste in ships.

Well, that's one way to argue a point. Just say that anyone who disagrees is automatically wrong. Personally, I quite like the way it looks. Better then the sloop from your picture anyway. I also couldn't care less whether it's sufficiently "realistic" or not.

[Gromnir]

As I said, I don't care about historical accuracy. I care that it looks cool, and it looks credible – seaworthy and consistent with the general level of nautical technology in the setting. If they have someone good enough to make a credible-looking boat that's not copying a reference, by all means go for it, but sticking a sail on a clog isn't the way to go about it.

 

Their model is neither. It's ugly and doesn't look like it's capable of moving through water, which is the second-most-important function of a ship. (The first being, keeping the sea on the outside, and I'm not even sure about that -- it looks rather top-heavy.)

am thinking its not as much 'bout historical accuracy and seaworthiness as is making concessions to gameplay.  the ship needs a sail plan which won't obstruct a top-down view too much.  from a gameplay pov one is also gonna need the deck to be wide enough to accommodate your 5-man/person/whatever formations and allow for some mobility in the inevitable boarding party combats.  so, 'cause the ship ain't a man'o war in terms o' displacement, we get a wide little boat with a simplified cutter's sails plan.

 

am thinking obsidian will only be able to fix so much.  given her relative size, your boat is gonna be a tubby little lass with good intentions and simple sails. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 24, 2017 by Gromnir

[pi2repsion]

Even in fantasy I do prefer ships to look seaworthy and we've got a thousand years of experience designing ships that are capable of traversing the oceans, and some two thousand more of sailing near the shorelines in ships made of wood, learning about which shapes are seaworthy and which are not. And the OP has got a point in that respect. Ignoring aesthetics or whether one would prefer a sloop or a cog, making the ship a curious hybrid that appears to ignore hard-won experience in ship design is a curious choice given that the backstory has nations with long maritime traditions. Unless there's a deliberate story point to it, so to speak.

 

I mean, it could be that the backstory is something along the lines of: The Steward procured the last ship designed by the famous shipwright B.S. Johnson at a remarkable discount. Allegations that he was killed by previous customers due to his ships being neither swift nor safe are clearly nothing but slander spread by jealous competitors.

 

And I'd love that. If nothing else, then for the homage to Terry Pratchett.

 

But barring that, I'd guess this is a bit of an oversight and whether anything can change or not depends on how much effort has already been put into the graphics for this ship.

Edited February 24, 2017 by pi2repsion

[rjshae]

It's a ship built for isometric gaming: a wide, open deck with plenty of walking space and few obstructions. The wood is worn and dull from exposure to the elements, but the ship is sturdy and gets you where you're going.

[PrimeJunta]

am thinking obsidian will only be able to fix so much.  given her relative size, your boat is gonna be a tubby little lass with good intentions and simple sails. 

 

There's no reason the aftcastle has to be that tall. Likewise no reason the hull has to be so rectangular. It can be broad-beamed and tubby without looking like a brick. Just let the sides curve out more. You could get there by mildly exaggerating the proportions on that sloop model I posted for reference.

 

As to the sails obscuring the deck, they can just trim them so they're seen nearly edge-on, except the foresails where it's not a problem anyway. That works equally well with square, lateen, or gaff sails. Yeah sure they'll always be the same way but that's an understandable concession to visibility.

[Bluedemonfox]

Well I don't know much about ships but the ship in game looks very similar to the model you showed so not sure what's the big deal. I guess I would agree it looks a bit too squarish at the back and the bottom sides so it would definitely need more tweeking to make it look more sleek. We should be getting more ship types now, I have no doubt we will reach the 4mil goal, hopefully they will be more to your liking. Personally I can't wait to see the Valian ship type.

 

Also it is a Fantasy game so they don't really have to stick to real life historical versions though I get there can't be that much variation if the ships are to make sens.

 

I really hope they make more animations in sailing such as flapping sails and rocking boat because it would otherwise look really lame. They said they are introducing weather so I am hoping for storms at sea. Would be cool to have - X defense to prone in rough seas. They already did show an example of environment effects on characters. So maybe they could add a feature were you can somehow predict weather conditions before sailing to see whether or not you should set sail.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Bluedemonfox

[JerekKruger]

... I have no doubt we will reach the 4mil goal

 

Given we're currently at 4.076 million, I think you might be right

[Gromnir]

 

am thinking obsidian will only be able to fix so much.  given her relative size, your boat is gonna be a tubby little lass with good intentions and simple sails. 

 

There's no reason the aftcastle has to be that tall. Likewise no reason the hull has to be so rectangular. It can be broad-beamed and tubby without looking like a brick. Just let the sides curve out more. You could get there by mildly exaggerating the proportions on that sloop model I posted for reference.

 

As to the sails obscuring the deck, they can just trim them so they're seen nearly edge-on, except the foresails where it's not a problem anyway. That works equally well with square, lateen, or gaff sails. Yeah sure they'll always be the same way but that's an understandable concession to visibility.

 

make adjustments you request, and she is gonna look close to what we current got.  is relative wide from bowsprit to rudder precise 'cause obsidian is making use of space for formation combats.  the more sleek you make her is gonna result in increasingly wasted/diminished gameplay available space.  and as for the sails, they can simple leave as is rather than worrying 'bout it further and making concessions to visibility.

 

dunno.  she is gonna be a tub.  am not thinking there is much way to get 'round it 'less you vast increase length.  whatever aesthetic changes you see from this point is gonna be minor and won't address your main gripes. 

 

make it a junk and call it a day?  that way you get simple sails and a nice fat deck from bow to stern.  the anime fans will be happy too.  get goth glasses-girl scientist companion and a junk?  open up a whole new demographic for obsidian.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[LLaney]

People thought about and created this thing and all you have say is: This is ugly.

 

That is just fine! Critical feedback is helpful too. It's part of why we are so fond of crowdfunding; it allows people to react to the game and share their thoughts while some elements of the game are still flexible.

[Leferd]

Now these are sloops.

 

 

[Archaven]

+1

I'm glad this post was made. I couldn't make a better post nor do i have the time to do so. The first time i saw this sloop.. i was like "man this looks ugly". I'm sure designers put up much effort in it. But if it's ain't good then it ain't good. I came from games like Assassin's Creed Blackflag and the ship was awesome. I hope this sloop can be reworked to look much better as we'll spent most of our time in it.

[injurai]

As someone was correct to remind me earlier. 'Pre-alpha'

[PrimeJunta]

make adjustments you request, and she is gonna look close to what we current got.  is relative wide from bowsprit to rudder precise 'cause obsidian is making use of space for formation combats.  the more sleek you make her is gonna result in increasingly wasted/diminished gameplay available space.  and as for the sails, they can simple leave as is rather than worrying 'bout it further and making concessions to visibility.

 

No, it won't.

 

Broad of beam is fine. 

 

Bricklike is not fine.

 

(1) Lower the aftcastle by half, or get rid of it altogether and replace it with a hatch that goes belowdecks to the captain's cabin.

(2) Curve out the sides more so that they make a natural teardrop shape truncated at the stern, instead of curving out at the prow, then going parallel, and then narrowing just a little bit like they do now.

(3) Give the vertical cross-section of the hull a little bit of roundness, so the sides don't go straight down, but curve out, a bit barrel-like. 

(4) Put the cannons on-deck rather than belowdecks; you don't need many, four on each side will do it.

(5) Lower the boom on the mainsail so that it no longer angles up like that, but trim it so that it doesn't obscure the deck.

(6) Give it a nice, long off-screen bowsprit (visible if you zoom out enough, or pan). 

 

Given these adjustments it'd be broader at the beam, and a little narrower at the stern, giving as much deck space as it has now. It would sit much lower in the water: this, the bowsprit, and the bigger sails would make it look a lot sleeker, a lot faster. And the overall shape would be both more pleasing to the eye and more functionally believable.

Edited February 24, 2017 by PrimeJunta

[Gromnir]

am thinking we are talking past each other.  for example, canons on deck means even less room for party maneuver, and giving space to make party formation and maneuverability viable is exact why the current deck has so much wasted space and is so wide from bow to stern.  your changes is working 'gainst gameplay concessions. 

 

you are worried 'bout aesthetics.

 

Gromnir suggests aesthetics must be sacrificed for gameplay.

 

you add suggestions which further limit party mobility, so am not seeing a meeting o' minds being possible.

 

...

 

serious.  go with the junk.  nice and fat from bow to stern.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Madscientist]

The thing that blocks sight most would be the sails.

In combat between ships, did they fight with full sails or did they minimize them? (sorry, I do not know the right terms).

If it makes any sense to fight without sails, almost every type of ship could be used as long as the deck is large enough for 5 chars + pets/summons + 10 human sized enemies and their pets. I think a ship like a sloop would be good. If you have a large ship (and the characters have the right proportions compared to the ship), you would need 50 people fighting on each side to have an epic battle. Otherwise the ship would feel quite empty.