Can we ditch the steward, please?

[JerekKruger]

I don't mind the steward returning, but I do hope out ship actually has a crew as well. Part of what makes a ship feel alive is the crew engaging in various naval activities like swabbing the main sail and hoisting the petard and other things like that...

[teenparty]

Some speaking characters the player can't kill are required in story-driven games. We're not big fans of just marking them immortal like most modern RPGs do it these days. That would be the lazy solution, IMHO. Yay, for animancy!

 

Sorry you don't like the Steward, though. Hopefully you do appreciate the freedom characters like these help provide. As always we appreciate the feedback and support.

 

-B

Can we not also remove the ability to kill every character? There is little use for it. The game rarely reacts appropriately to the death of NPCs.

[Fenixp]

Can we not also remove the ability to kill every character? There is little use for it. The game rarely reacts appropriately to the death of NPCs.

You could just... Maybe... Not kill them.

[Aotrs Commander]

 

Throne Bae "lives"? THIS IS THE BEST THING YET!

 

*snorts* Throne Bae. Shall we have some romance options for the chair?

 

 

Well, they often do the ship is the captain's mistress...!

[Leeuwenhart]

 

 

Throne Bae "lives"? THIS IS THE BEST THING YET!

*snorts* Throne Bae. Shall we have some romance options for the chair?

Well, they often do the ship is the captain's mistress...!

Only things more involved in my lovelife then a chair is my bed! XD Edited February 23, 2017 by Leeuwenhart

[FlintlockJazz]

I can understand where the OP is coming from regarding the chair and share many of his sentiments.  She seemed like a cheap cop out from actually having minions working at the castle, could magically arrange upgrades and the like just by throwing money at her, there was no workers you could see appear to do the work, could be contacted wherever (though she couldn't actually tell you important stuff until you returned to base, despite being able to tell you that you needed to return...), etc.  It made the keep feel very gamey, you did not have a title with the keep and seemed to only have a claim to it because "the keep likes you, aw look it's rubbing up against your leg!"

 

Like many things though, I realise that my feelings may partly stem from the other issues with the base that the chair highlighted and made worse: the lack of actual people at the keep or connection to the rest of the world.  If they had people working there, aside from the hirelings, repairing stuff, administering your lands etc that the chair OVERSAW as opposed to magically did herself then it probably wouldn't have been a problem (and made it fit in more with the statue in the sanitarium, where the guy oversaw everything but couldn't actually do anything himself, he still required staff). 

[Katarack21]

I don't get the science-fiction vibe problem. This setting is *full* of magitek; that's basically what animancy *is*. That's what's up with the animats and all of the undead, even, except for revenets; it's the same process.

[Leeuwenhart]

Rod Steward will never go!

[Lorfean]

Yeah, I don't get the sci-fi complaint either -- it's not like she is the only soul-bound-to-an-inanimate-object you encounter and there is a ton of lore and even questlines involving this concept and its practices. I thought she fit the setting.  I also liked her as a character and thought she was excellently voice-acted, so yeah -- I'm gonna enjoy having her along for the ride.

I understand your issues with her implementation though -- or rather, the stronghold upgrades system. It did feel a bit like a mobile app / mini game and I also would have preferred a more realistic / involved way of doing things. It didn't bother me *that* much though *shrug*. And who's to say that the implementation is gonna be the same in Deadfire? Maybe you can only talk to her / upgrade your ship when you're actually on the ship? That would make a huge difference already. Would be nice to have some more information on her role and how they're planning to do do ship upgrades, etc.

 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Lorfean

[No idea]

I like the Steward returning. 

 

It makes me feel like I still have a bond with old Caed Nua. I was so proud of that place only to be destroyed by an angry god...

[pi2repsion]

Some speaking characters the player can't kill are required in story-driven games. We're not big fans of just marking them immortal like most modern RPGs do it these days. That would be the lazy solution, IMHO. Yay, for animancy!

 

Sorry you don't like the Steward, though. Hopefully you do appreciate the freedom characters like these help provide. As always we appreciate the feedback and support.

 

-B

 

"Ding!  Building upgrade X has been completed. Please call in and select a new upgrade Y. Steward out."

 

"Dong! Your companion X has completed a miniadventure. I rolled on the random loot table for the adventure and he gained Y. Please call in and select a new miniadventure. Steward out."

 

"Dang! Random encounter. Remember those walls you built for security? They are just for looks and reducing gold lost to bandits outside the walls, not for protection. Either return for a brief fight inside the fortifications against trivial foes X whenever you feel like it within the next Y days or your defenders will handle it and a few buildings will be damaged. Steward out."

 

...It is not the fault of her personality.

 

She is tainted in my memory, and I daresay in that of many others as well, not by her immortal/animancy exposition nature, but by being inextricably linked to the subgame that was the player stronghold in Pillars of Eternity, serving as the remote control for something that felt very much like a cheap webgame approaching cowclicker status.

 

That's perhaps a harsh verdict on the stronghold functionality, but the execution fell far short of this player's expectations, which to a large degree were based on Obsidian's prior and superior work with the player interactions and stronghold functionality of the Crossroads Keep for Neverwinter Nights 2 a decade before.

 

It'll take a hell of a lot of good writing on the development team's part to overcome the animosity following her due to her functionality in stronghold upgrading & alerting to minor and not remotely interesting battles.

 

(Speaking of which I dearly and sincerely hope that Deadfire has neither miniadventure, upgrading minigames, nor random encounters-return to base, like Pillars of Eternity; Given how poorly that worked out in Pillars I'd love to see those aspects scrapped entirely rather than attempted saved and improved.)

Edited February 23, 2017 by pi2repsion

[Fenixp]

(Speaking of which I dearly and sincerely hope that Deadfire has neither miniadventure, upgrading minigames, nor random encounters-return to base, like Pillars of Eternity; Given how poorly that worked out in Pillars I'd love to see those aspects scrapped entirely rather than attempted saved and improved.)

I quite liked the miniadventures after actual writing got associated with them in 3.0. It gave the rest of my party, even the headcanoned adventurers I created, an actual back story of things they were doing as opposed to infinitely hang out in the stronghold. The idea could be improved a bit, like some missions getting different results on what kind of party member does them, but all in all it was a nice bit of flavour giving you a feeling like something else than what you saw was actually happening in the world.

[Bill Gates' Son]

 

Some speaking characters the player can't kill are required in story-driven games. We're not big fans of just marking them immortal like most modern RPGs do it these days. That would be the lazy solution, IMHO. Yay, for animancy!

 

Sorry you don't like the Steward, though. Hopefully you do appreciate the freedom characters like these help provide. As always we appreciate the feedback and support.

 

-B

 

"Ding!  Building upgrade X has been completed. Please call in and select a new upgrade Y. Steward out."

 

"Dong! Your companion X has completed a miniadventure. I rolled on the random loot table for the adventure and he gained Y. Please call in and select a new miniadventure. Steward out."

 

"Dang! Random encounter. Remember those walls you built for security? They are just for looks and reducing gold lost to bandits outside the walls, not for protection. Either return for a brief fight inside the fortifications against trivial foes X whenever you feel like it within the next Y days or your defenders will handle it and a few buildings will be damaged. Steward out."

 

...It is not the fault of her personality.

 

She is tainted in my memory, and I daresay in that of many others as well, not by her immortal/animancy exposition nature, but by being inextricably linked to the subgame that was the player stronghold in Pillars of Eternity, serving as the remote control for something that felt very much like a cheap webgame approaching cowclicker status.

 

That's perhaps a harsh verdict on the stronghold functionality, but the execution fell far short of this player's expectations, which to a large degree were based on Obsidian's prior and superior work with the player interactions and stronghold functionality of the Crossroads Keep for Neverwinter Nights 2 a decade before.

 

It'll take a hell of a lot of good writing on the development team's part to overcome the animosity following her due to her functionality in stronghold upgrading & alerting to minor and not remotely interesting battles.

 

(Speaking of which I dearly and sincerely hope that Deadfire has neither miniadventure, upgrading minigames, nor random encounters-return to base, like Pillars of Eternity; Given how poorly that worked out in Pillars I'd love to see those aspects scrapped entirely rather than attempted saved and improved.)

 

 

Mini adventures were improved in patch 3.0 when they added stories to them, and I would love to see them return and expanded upon.

 

On Topic: As for the steward, I'm ok with her being unkillable just as long as players have the option of being mean to her.  That would work well for people who role play "not so good" characters.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Bill Gates' Son

[Varana]

I very much agree with FlintlockJazz that the major reason why I (mildly) disliked the Steward was the lack of people at the Keep. In a setting like PoE, I can totally imagine a soul bound to a chair managing a castle. That it all happens by invisible gremlins and no one actually builds anything, there are never any stacks of logs and stones for further construction, no one ever hangs out at the theatre thing, no one tends to the garden, etc. - all this makes the Steward look as a cop-out. In retrospect, I'd even retain the Manage Your Keep smartphone app, because quality of life. At the keep itself, though, it felt lifeless, which made the pure functionality of the Steward stand out that much more.

 

As for the adventures: Those are the best thing EVAH!!! At least in their latest incarnation, with actual stories. If Obsidian has money to burn, the adventures could have slightly different outcomes (or flavour text) depending on what character does them, but that's icing on the cake. In general, though, these things were a really great idea. They needed a little bit of filling in context (and dialogue) for yourself, but that's fine.

[Messier-31]

Mini adventures were improved in patch 3.0 when they added stories to them, and I would love to see them return and expanded upon.

 

Yes, I Wonder how they would solve this one since your stronghold is a ship. You send a companion on a mini-adventure how, exactly?

 

Rowing boat?

Edited February 23, 2017 by Messier-31

[Fenixp]

Yes, I Wonder how they would solve this one since your stronghold is a ship. You send a companion on a mini-adventure how, exactly?

 

Rowing boat?

[Messier-31]

Seems legit.

[pi2repsion]

 

(Speaking of which I dearly and sincerely hope that Deadfire has neither miniadventure, upgrading minigames, nor random encounters-return to base, like Pillars of Eternity; Given how poorly that worked out in Pillars I'd love to see those aspects scrapped entirely rather than attempted saved and improved.)

I quite liked the miniadventures after actual writing got associated with them in 3.0. It gave the rest of my party, even the headcanoned adventurers I created, an actual back story of things they were doing as opposed to infinitely hang out in the stronghold. The idea could be improved a bit, like some missions getting different results on what kind of party member does them, but all in all it was a nice bit of flavour giving you a feeling like something else than what you saw was actually happening in the world.

 

To each his own, I guess.

 

To me, the miniadventures never got beyond "every n time units, click button for reward", same as you see in any other game that wants to reward time served rather than effort. All 3.0 added was the reward consisting of more fixed loot with a fixed story attached with the name of the adventurer substituted where appropriate - it didn't make me feel any more engaged with the companions as characters.

 

 

No, if my "companions" are to have miniadventures when I am not with them rather than having them hang out in the stronghold, let that happen because they have a life of their own, not because I click a button every n time units to receive a reward, whether that reward is loot or a story. Let them choose of their own when to be in the keep and when to be adventuring when not in my party.

 

Let them decide which adventures they go on and which they do not. Let me hear of their adventures when I return to my keep and find them present, nursing their wounds and telling tales of their exploits- or possibly find a "gone adventuring, see you when I see you" sign posted by their bed, making me have to do without them. (Or a "gone fishing", if they are sane and prefer not risking their lives for little reason).  Let them sometimes fail, depending on their level and equipment rather than always succeeding. In THIS imagination of companion adventures they are risking life and limb when they go fighting, not merely a "click for reward" timed mechanic. (Yeah, yeah, some people would be against companions dying when you are not with them, so let them always survive miraculously but wounded as the worst case, but still... Let their adventures carry an opportunity cost.)

 

Don't give me any more fine control of their actions when not in the party than being able to tell them, while in my stronghold where they cool their feet between adventuring with me, that I'd prefer them to stay put and available rather than going on adventures. And don't give me the ability to check on their status at all times. What happens in the stronghold stays in the stronghold.

 

Just like I don't want the ability to know what is going on in my stronghold at all times and most certainly don't want the ability to issue orders in the stronghold at all times when my main character is off adventuring and concentrating on the exciting locales and people he meets there.

 

 

But of course, since Obsidian says we bring the Steward along, we'll be bringing her mental link along as well, which means that in Deadfire, as in Pillars, we'll probably never be out of contact, always be able to make touch with base on a moment's notice. Which is a crying shame. There is such a thing as way too much communication.

Edited February 23, 2017 by pi2repsion

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

Some speaking characters the player can't kill are required in story-driven games. We're not big fans of just marking them immortal like most modern RPGs do it these days. That would be the lazy solution, IMHO. Yay, for animancy!

 

Sorry you don't like the Steward, though. Hopefully you do appreciate the freedom characters like these help provide. As always we appreciate the feedback and support.

 

-B

I love the Steward

[Fenixp]

To me, the miniadventures never got beyond "every n time units, click button for reward", same as you see in any other game that wants to reward time served rather than effort.

To be fair, that's not really how mini-adventures worked - they functioned off the stronghold's 'turns' rather than the timer (yes, having the two time units is pretty bizarre by itself), and stronghold turns moved by player completing quests as opposed to by spending time idly. It's just a technicality, yes, but it essentially meant that doing side-stuff in the game was incentivized even further.

 

Anyway, most of what you're saying regarding the adventures would be nice to see. However, it would also cost a considerable amount of development effort and if you'd give me a choice of whether I want adventures from Pillars of Eternity 1 to return or to just have my companions waiting around until I recall them, well, I'll choose the adventures every single time as even that's better than what most SP RPG games have, yet it should be relatively simple to implement.

 

As for communicating with stronghold over distance being 'too much communication' - it's important to realize just what kind of game Pillars of Eternity is. If time management was of the essence, cutting this communication channel entirely would make sense. It's not tho, and all that stands between you and the keep management is either a button you can click or a bunch of irritating loading screens.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Fenixp

[Mikeymoonshine]

 

Some speaking characters the player can't kill are required in story-driven games. We're not big fans of just marking them immortal like most modern RPGs do it these days. That would be the lazy solution, IMHO. Yay, for animancy!

 

Sorry you don't like the Steward, though. Hopefully you do appreciate the freedom characters like these help provide. As always we appreciate the feedback and support.

 

-B

I love the Steward

 

 

Seconded and it's a bit rude to treat her like this after she bought you a ship.

[pi2repsion]

 

To me, the miniadventures never got beyond "every n time units, click button for reward", same as you see in any other game that wants to reward time served rather than effort.

To be fair, that's not really how mini-adventures worked - they functioned off the stronghold's 'turns' rather than the timer (yes, having the two time units is pretty bizarre by itself), and stronghold turns moved by player completing quests as opposed to by spending time idly. It's just a technicality, yes, but it essentially meant that doing side-stuff in the game was incentivized even further.

 

Anyway, most of what you're saying regarding the adventures would be nice to see. However, it would also cost a considerable amount of development effort and if you'd give me a choice of whether I want adventures from Pillars of Eternity 1 to return or to just have my companions waiting around until I recall them, well, I'll choose the adventures every single time as even that's better than what most SP RPG games have, yet it should be relatively simple to implement.

 

As for communicating with stronghold over distance being 'too much communication' - it's important to realize just what kind of game Pillars of Eternity is. If time management was of the essence, cutting this communication channel entirely would make sense. It's not tho, and all that stands between you and the keep management is either a button you can click or a bunch of irritating loading screens.

 

[EDIT]To be fair, working off keep turns is exactly "every n time units" as I said, the game having two different timers using different time units neither detracting from my point nor description.[/EDIT]

 

Speaking of "what kind of game Pillars of Eternity is", I can't help thinking that it was primarily intended to be roleplaying game where a party of people go on adventures, quests, missions, or whatnot together, not a "keep simulator where it is important to micromanage building 25 distinct buildings that have mostly cosmetic impact and only minor gameplay impact, serving as a convenient money sink for the loot we award during the game, complete with a separate button to generate loot every n keep-turns so it is important to allow you to micromanage it from afar rather than require you to return to the keep frequently to issue orders" game.

 

But of course, you are right that the latter is how it ended, and that if something like that is done for Deadfire, then the remote control makes sense.

 

Which of course is one of my major objections to the entire keep building minigame in the first place, as I stated on my first post in this thread earlier on in our conversation.

 

After all, Obsidian managed to include a much superior keep in functionality, interaction, and feel in Neverwinter Nights 2 without such remote control, by the simple expedient of giving the player fewer but more meaningful keep interactions. More communication and more interactions is not always better, and in particular not when it detracts from the main story.

 

So I can only hope that the development team isn't satisfied with how the stronghold mechanics worked in Pillars, because they frankly came across as something bolted on out of duty to check off points from the stretch goals and early public discussion rather than the result of deep deliberation during development where you kill off ideas you are not sure are working well enough in order to spend your time more profitably elsewhere.

Edited February 23, 2017 by pi2repsion

[Mikeymoonshine]

I do agree with the criticism's of the keep. It was a very nice base of operations but mechanically it was a mess and it just felt so lifeless. At least we know that for example the upgrades we can make on the ship will actually be useful in the game. For example how encounters go may depend on how upgraded your cannons and sails are.