Josh Sawyer Something Awful PoE2 Posts

[Chairchucker]

The difference between Diablo III's "fluent" skill system and PoE's retraining is the same as between PoE's retraining and restarting completely: it's just a difference of convience.

Not really, though? Like, the retraining system means that if you decide that certain builds are better for certain encounters, you can ensure your character is optimally build for each battle. Can't really do that with restarting.

 

(I never bothered using the retrain ability, personally, but I'm glad it's there for people who want it. Same with the adventurer's hall.)

[Boeroer]

I meant the difference in terms of tediousness. If it's too easy you will do it even if you feel it's lame. If it's tedious you won't, even if it's possible. Except when you really need to.

 

Like the bug with Quick Switch + Coil of Resourcefulness + guns. You can skip recovery and reloading altogether and fire gunshots every second. But it's such a chore in terms of micromanagement and timing that I don't do it.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Boeroer

[Infinitron]

[L4wlight]

[L4wlight]

 

[Amentep]

 

I can't remember if there were bar rumors in PoE (I haven't restarted a new playthrough yet on it), but I am replaying BG1 and seeing the rumors when drinking (and how they're generally useless) and then this post makes me think that something like having bar rumors actually net you information about NPCs you could initiate talking to might be a way to solve the conundrum of "wander around and talk to everyone in case they have a quest" vs "walk two feet, be given a quest because you have the kind of face that says you do quests". 

 

Go to the bar, and spend enough on drinking / eating long enough you may hear about some NPC who is having some kind of problem, then you can decide if you want to find that NPC or not.  Could be a way to complement other methods of finding quests.

[Infinitron]

[L4wlight]

[injurai]

 

Terrible. I need 9 hours of sleep to be fully rested.

[Infinitron]

[MaxQuest]

That's interesting... and it rises so many questions...

- does that mean that [Arquebuss_1 with 9 Pen on 100 dmg roll] and [Arquebuss_2 with 11 Pen on 30 dmg_roll] will deal same damage vs enemy with 10 AR (in respective damage type)?

- how does [Pen vs AR] multiplier {0.3, 1, 1.3} (or {-0.7, 0, 0.3}) stack with [graze/hit/crit] and other damage coefficients? Multiplicativelly or additively?

- is that [Pen vs AR] added in addition to [20% of damage going through DR/AR no matter what]? Or instead of it? 

- are there any means to increase your Pen? Or will we have to deal reduced damage vs dragons and other high AR creatures?

- does that also mean that all (non-raw) damaging spells will have Pen rating attached to them? How about DoTs?

Edited February 16, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Caeyrii]

Does that mean we wont get static encounters in an area anymore? I mean, like, once you clear an area it may have new enemies in it as well? 

[Boeroer]

That's interesting... and it rises so many questions...

- does that mean that [Arquebuss_1 with 9 Pen on 100 dmg roll] and [Arquebuss_2 with 11 Pen on 30 dmg_roll] will deal same damage vs enemy with 10 AR (in respective damage type)?

- how does [Pen vs AR] multiplier {0.3, 1, 1.3} (or {-0.7, 0, 0.3}) stack with [graze/hit/crit] and other damage coefficients? Multiplicativelly or additively?

- is that [Pen vs AR] added in addition to [20% of damage going through DR/AR no matter what]? Or instead of it? 

- are there any means to increase your Pen? Or will we have to deal reduced damage vs dragons and other high AR creatures?

- does that also mean that all (non-raw) damaging spells will have Pen rating attached to them? How about DoTs?

Your first question does indeed show that this system has some bad flaws. Having a fixed "border" at which the damage drops or increaes dramatically will lead to problems. It will also be a great opportunity to abuse stuff. Because they can never think through all the consequences such a big change will have. It also sounds very complicated compared to the old solution. Plus: I don't know why they are doing this. I can't see the advantages. But that doesn't have to mean anything of course...

[AndreaColombo]

LoP 2.0 is shaping up

[MaxQuest]

Your first question does indeed show that this system has some bad flaws. Having a fixed "border" at which the damage drops or increaes dramatically will lead to problems. It will also be a great opportunity to abuse stuff. Because they can never think through all the consequences such a big change will have. It also sounds very complicated compared to the old solution. Plus: I don't know why they are doing this. I can't see the advantages. But that doesn't have to mean anything of course...

There is indeed a big flaw, if the system works in the way it was presented in Josh's post.

 

---

I hope through he meant a bit another thing. And that DmgRoll and Penetration are added together before the [downgrade] check is done.

 

Will try to explain it via examples. So let's say we have 3 enemies and 3 characters:

 

Enemy X has 1 pierce AR.

Enemy Y has 3 pierce AR.

Enemy Z has 9 pierce AR.

 

Character A has 1 pierce Pen.

Character B has 2 pierce Pen.

Character C has 9 pierce Pen.

A hits X [dmgRoll = 5] | dmgRoll + Pen = 6 vs 1 AR | result: 100% of 5 damage goes through
A hits Y [dmgRoll = 5] | dmgRoll + Pen = 6 vs 3 AR | result: 100% of 3 damage goes through
A hits Z [dmgRoll = 5] | dmgRoll + Pen = 6 vs 9 AR | result:  30% of 5 damage goes through

B hits X [dmgRoll = 5] | dmgRoll + Pen = 7 vs 1 AR | result: 130% of 5 damage goes through (because Pen >= 2 * AR)
B hits Y [dmgRoll = 5] | dmgRoll + Pen = 7 vs 3 AR | result: 100% of 4 damage goes through
B hits Z [dmgRoll = 5] | dmgRoll + Pen = 7 vs 9 AR | result:  30% of 5 damage goes through

C hits X [dmgRoll = 5] | dmgRoll + Pen = 14 vs 1 AR | result: 130% of 5 damage goes through (because Pen >= 2 * AR)
C hits Y [dmgRoll = 5] | dmgRoll + Pen = 14 vs 3 AR | result: 130% of 5 damage goes through (because Pen >= 2 * AR)
C hits Z [dmgRoll = 5] | dmgRoll + Pen = 14 vs 9 AR | result: 100% of 5 damage goes through

This will be basically the good old [20% of damage always goes through DR]; But now the threshold will be 30%; and there is also penetration at play (to give you a chance to deal bonus damage i.e. those 130% if your Pen is double their AR)

 

TL.DR: it would be nice if:

- for damage [upgrade to 130%] you would need to have Pen > 2 * AR

- for damage [downgrade to 30%] you would need to have Pen + DmgRoll < AR

Edited February 16, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Still very complicated, but makes a lot more sense.

[MaxQuest]

At least it doesn't have strange breaking points (in dmg output function) when your dps suddenly increases by x3.33, once you add just one more point of penetration.

 

Tbh I have a strong feeling that someone was really inspired by the armor penetration from Tyranny, and really wants to make it right this time)

 

---

 

Sincerelly speaking proper penetration system is both interesting and perfectly balanceable. And although I am no expert at weapons realism, I have a feeling that quick and light stilettos, along with spears, pikes, warhammers and really heavy great axes can indeed have some nice penetration. 

And balance wise: 

- for quick weapons, penetration could compensate their low base damage; 

- while for heavy ones, it could compensate their attack/swing duration. 

In Tyranny that approach didn't work through. But it wasn't because of penetration system itself, but due to lack of play-testing, their attack-speed system, abilities/talents like Hundred Fists and Riposte, multi-strike property and haste spell (which coupled together made the slowest of 2H weapons the one and only optimal choice)

Edited February 16, 2017 by MaxQuest

[fiddlesticks]

Tyranny didn't have a specific Penetration system, though. The penetration property on weapons was basically the same as the DR bypass in PoE. The new system sounds more like the one in Wasteland 2 where damage and penetration are completely independent of each other.

 

That's interesting... and it rises so many questions...
- does that mean that [Arquebuss_1 with 9 Pen on 100 dmg roll] and [Arquebuss_2 with 11 Pen on 30 dmg_roll] will deal same damage vs enemy with 10 AR (in respective damage type)?

 

If I understand Sawyer's post correctly, yes.

 

- how does [Pen vs AR] multiplier {0.3, 1, 1.3} (or {-0.7, 0, 0.3}) stack with [graze/hit/crit] and other damage coefficients? Multiplicativelly or additively?

 

Given that this system is replacing the DR mechanic of the first game, I would guess Armor is applied to the total damage, so multiplicatively.

 

- is that [Pen vs AR] added in addition to [20% of damage going through DR/AR no matter what]? Or instead of it?

 

Again, with this system completely replacing DR, I'm assuming the 20% Min Damage effect will be replaced by the 30% one.

 

- are there any means to increase your Pen? Or will we have to deal reduced damage vs dragons and other high AR creatures?

 

I would assume spells/abilities that previously reduced DR will now reduce Armor or increase Penetration. Which might make Sundering Blow actually good.

 

It also sounds very complicated compared to the old solution.

 

I actually think the biggest advantage of this change is that it's very straightforward and intuitive to grasp. You no longer have to calculate around expected damage ranges. Instead, you just compare your Penetration to the enemy's Armor. Is it higher? Keep going. Is it lower? Switch to something else.

Edited February 16, 2017 by fiddlesticks

[hilfazer]

The whole point of their new armor system is divorcing damage from penetration so no, adding damage roll to penetration is not going to happen.

Some fast weapons will have good pen, other will not but will have better damage.

 

The idea of armor pen allowing you to deal extra damage is so unintuitive. I hoped to never see it in any cRPG.

 

Why would Obs replace absolute reduction with %? I see one reason: easier to control. Josh wants to control us.

Not only they want to use % that are easier to control, they also give only 3 outcomes of armor pen resolution: 30%/100%/130%. Even more control. At least it's gonna be balanced! (actually i expect those 30% to be raised for balance reasons).

The problem with absolute reduction is that weapons with good damage but poor penetration can easily get out of control and outperform less damaging ones but with good penetration when fighting well armored opponents.

In % system it's still possible but much less likely to happen. Designers will have an easier job, which is good.

In their new system DPH will stop meaning anything. That's sad. It was an important aspect of blunderbuss. Another important thing about blunderbuss is its number of hits per attack, sadly Obsidian does not want it to matter anything as well (cipher talent no longer gives +X focus per hit, same with drugs). I wouldn't be very surprised if they removed Combusting Wounds in POE2.

[Greensleeve]

As I read the new PEN system, all weapons have a damage range and a PEN value. All armor has an Armor Rating. Whenever hit, PEN is compared to AR. If PEN<AR, you do 30% damage. If AR<PEN<2xAR then you do 100% damage. If 2xAR<PEN you do 130% damage. DR (AR) never applies to damage, it only ever compares to PEN. So you cannot get through high AR simply by having high damage, the way you can in PoE. You MUST have sufficient PEN in order to do more than 30% damage. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Greensleeve

[L4wlight]

[MaxQuest]

Why would Obs replace absolute reduction with %? I see one reason: easier to control. Josh wants to control us.

Not only they want to use % that are easier to control, they also give only 3 outcomes of armor pen resolution: 30%/100%/130%. Even more control. At least it's gonna be balanced! (actually i expect those 30% to be raised for balance reasons).

Hmm, do we really want control and be forced to use weapons_x vs monster_x; weapons_y vs monster_y exclusively?

I think it's great when there is more variation in viable options, each being with their pros and cons, which you also have to figure out. Instead of just checking damage_type_symbol shown by the game itself.

 

Another important thing about blunderbuss is its number of hits per attack, sadly Obsidian does not want it to matter anything as well (cipher talent no longer gives +X focus per hit, same with drugs)

What talent are you referring to?

 

I actually think the biggest advantage of this change is that it's very straightforward and intuitive to grasp. You no longer have to calculate around expected damage ranges. Instead, you just compare your Penetration to the enemy's Armor. Is it higher? Keep going. Is it lower? Switch to something else.

Tbh I liked that calculation around damage ranges.

Mig had additional diminishing returns due to being diluted by other damage coefficients. On the other hand relative gain from +1 Mig was increasing when fighting enemies with higher DR. Making tables to see what happens, and finding the sweet spot between Mig and Dex was an interesting task.

 

The proposed system (provided the info we have atm) feels a bit too straight-forward. Like someone holds your hand and tells/forces you to switch weapons. (and because the difference between multiplicative 0.3 and 1.0 is quite big; it's not something we would be able to ignore). So all optimization will become: knowing enemy AR, and aiming either for Pen = AR; or Pen = 2AR. Aaand that's all.

 

P.S. thanks for other answers. They seem to be the likest thing to happen.

Edited February 17, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Infinitron]

[Sedrefilos]

Like?? There's a greek saying: "Do I have to pull the words out of your mouth with the hook?". Why did he left it tere? Does he need another question to elaborate?

[fiddlesticks]

Tbh I liked that calculation around damage ranges.

 

I liked the DR system, too, but I can't deny that constantly calculating the expected damage output to assess whether or not switching weapons was beneficial in any given situation was something of a hassle. Eventually I just stopped switching weapons altogether because, hey, if it ain't broke, right? If the new system encourages people to play around with weapons some more, it's a plus in my book.

 

 

Like?? There's a greek saying: "Do I have to pull the words out of your mouth with the hook?". Why did he left it tere? Does he need another question to elaborate?

 

Either Sawyer can't talk about it in-depth because they're still experimenting with different weapon effects and nothing's set in stone yet, or he just enjoys being a tease. Probably a bit of both.