Starting back at level 1?

[thelee]

Just wondering how levels are going to be handled given Pallegina, Eder, and Aloth (and even CHARNAME) are confirmed coming back.

 

BG2 was able to handle this because BG1/ToTSC left off at a modest power level (level 7-8ish for BG, level 10-11ish for ToTSC). By contrast, I feel like the power level at the end of White March part II (level 16) is almost akin to the end of BG2. I mean, no transparently broken spells and items (that wouldn't really happen until Throne of Bhaal... or if you were clever enough to use Simulacrum to get infinite uses of Time Stop), but spells like Wall of Many Colors, Minor Avatar, Hand of Weal and Woe, or Tornado are pretty extremely high up on the power scale. If PoE2 picks up at level 16 (or even level 12), there would have to be extreme power creep (both self and enemies) to give yourself meaningful progression throughout the game (plus any expansions).

 

On the other hand, it would be also extremely weird if your formerly powerful party members and yourself--someone who conquered a keep, defeated dragons, and fended off an invading army both human and eyeless--were reduced to level 1 shadows of your former self.

 

Thoughts? Speculation on possible approaches?

Edited January 26, 2017 by thelee

[Ashen Rohk]

I'd be surprised if we didn't get slapped back to Level 1.

 

This was something I was thinking as well, but if we have new classes introduced as well it might well be better starting afresh. Lord knows trying to figure out all those BG2 kits at level 7 was a pain the arse.

 

It's a generally accepted mechanic in most RPGs.

[Amentep]

My theory is that the aim is to do like BGII and make this a high(er) level campaign and not kick back to 1.  Even if they could justify a level 1 restart for the PC, how'd that tie to the returning characters?

[Aramintai]

Please, no. I want a high level campaign in a sequel, just like it was in Baldur's Gate 2. And I wanna see those high level spells.

[Leferd]

Well, the concept could be that the returnees could have been gravelly injured as well and the path to recovery and rehab isn't instantaneous.

[TheRealDrMcCoy]

The crowdfunding video says that the Eothas golem thingy will destroy the keep and leave you on the brink of death.

 

My guess would be that they're using that as a reason to push you back to level 1. And the returning characters are maybe currently visiting you, so it happens to them as well.

 

Personally, I don't have any issues with starting back small. But I am a bit sad about probably losing the keep.

[Aramintai]

The crowdfunding video says that the Eothas golem thingy will destroy the keep and leave you on the brink of death.

 

My guess would be that they're using that as a reason to push you back to level 1. And the returning characters are maybe currently visiting you, so it happens to them as well.

 

Personally, I don't have any issues with starting back small. But I am a bit sad about probably losing the keep.

That's a dumb reason unless Eothas leaves you without memory as well.

[thelee]

Well, the concept could be that the returnees could have been gravelly injured as well and the path to recovery and rehab isn't instantaneous.

 

I wonder if they could split the difference, use this kind of approach, but have an accelerated experience gain up until ~level 8-10 so the game still plays like a moderate/high-level campaign.

 

 

The crowdfunding video says that the Eothas golem thingy will destroy the keep and leave you on the brink of death.

 

My guess would be that they're using that as a reason to push you back to level 1. And the returning characters are maybe currently visiting you, so it happens to them as well.

 

Personally, I don't have any issues with starting back small. But I am a bit sad about probably losing the keep.

 

Me neither. Lord knows I've created tons of PoE level 1 characters. Personally, also, I didn't find the keep mechanic that great... I thought Tyranny's was way better. So if they destroy that keep and give us something more like Tyranny's, I'd be down with that.

[Yonjuro]

My theory is that the aim is to do like BGII and make this a high(er) level campaign and not kick back to 1.  Even if they could justify a level 1 restart for the PC, how'd that tie to the returning characters?

 

 That would be my preference. Your character's abilities and knowledge are part of their identity.

 

 I suspect that you will retain your level but that some of your equipment may have gone missing when your stronghold was destroyed.

[Aramintai]

 

Me neither. Lord knows I've created tons of PoE level 1 characters. Personally, also, I didn't find the keep mechanic that great... I thought Tyranny's was way better. So if they destroy that keep and give us something more like Tyranny's, I'd be down with that.

 

I'd like a ship as a new stronghold, or an island. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Aramintai

[jones092201]

you're not going back to level one. I agree that the first game rushed you to high level spells and abilities (and weapons and the like), but they're not going to force you back to level one. this story is passed that stage, players want to see that new new.

[Enoch]

Well, they're re-jiggering the game mechanics, too.  It's rarely a good idea to ask the player to pick a whole lot of abilities at once, right at the start of the game.  They'll want the game to be accessible to new-to-the-franchise players, and, even for returning players, there's probably going to be a healthy amount of new options to consider. 

 

My suspicion is that they'll start us at something that feels like level 3 or 4.  Systems like this tend to be most fun in the 3-10 level range, anyway.

[dukeisaac]

I would also prefer a return to lower levels (similar to what BG2 did). I think it ties into the story, as far as we know it, and allows devs to create reasonable progression. Frankly, how can you create a challenge fighting lowly pirates after destroying dragons and archmages without somewhat of a tune down?

[thelee]

 

 

Me neither. Lord knows I've created tons of PoE level 1 characters. Personally, also, I didn't find the keep mechanic that great... I thought Tyranny's was way better. So if they destroy that keep and give us something more like Tyranny's, I'd be down with that.

 

I'd like a ship as a new stronghold, or an island. 

 

 

A+ ideas. Especially if I can take that ship and travel with it.

[floredon]

Given that BG2 was referenced as one of the inspirations for POE, I would be very surprised if POE2 was not a higher level campaign.

[Aramintai]

 

 

 

Me neither. Lord knows I've created tons of PoE level 1 characters. Personally, also, I didn't find the keep mechanic that great... I thought Tyranny's was way better. So if they destroy that keep and give us something more like Tyranny's, I'd be down with that.

 

I'd like a ship as a new stronghold, or an island. 

 

 

A+ ideas. Especially if I can take that ship and travel with it.

 

Yea, I'm thinking since Deadfire is an archipelago we'll get to travel alot to different islands, so a ship can become a movable base of operations. An island, on the other hand, can become an insurmountable fortress against enemies and steady source of income and resources.

[Flouride]

I don't think will push you back to level 1 that would just cause so much drama and whining. If they need to balance the game it's more likely that they will push you back few levels.

[Yonjuro]

I would also prefer a return to lower levels (similar to what BG2 did). 

 

 

  BG2 didn't do that. If you imported a character, you kept the level that you had in BG1. If you had hit the XP cap in BG1 but gained additional XP  above the cap, you kept the XP and leveled up sooner (maybe immediately if you had a lot of extra XP).

 

 You lost most of your items (there were a few things that you found in Irenicus' dungeon that could be changed based on what you had in your inventory).

[jones092201]

after thinking about it a little more, there is a small chance that something in the vein of level reduction at the start of the game might happen. This is because they are maybe going to include multi-classing, and they'll need a way to allow PC and the returning characters to take that option.

Within the context of the narrative, it makes sense that they could get hurt, drop some levels, ---gained back very quickly through ealy xp-- that give you the chance to modify existing characters leveling composition.

the other way, of course, would be to just let us tweak character at impot.

 

Stil think it's unlikely they will take our levels and our stuff.

[Aramintai]

I think they could start this sequel with vanilla PoE level cap. What was it? Level 10? White March raised it to 12, but since not everyone played it they could lower it back a bit. But not too much, it's a sequel after all, with the same protagonist, so high mid-level campaign is expected. And furthermore, they've teased us with those empty high level spell slots in PoE1, it's time to start filling them out. I don't care if they take all the items away though, they can be regained.

Personally, I find mid-high level campaigns much more interesting to play than low level, because of the large variety of abilities available and rising level of sheer epic-ness of battles. BG2 and ToB were my favourites in this regard.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Aramintai

[dukeisaac]

 

I would also prefer a return to lower levels (similar to what BG2 did). 

 

 

  BG2 didn't do that. If you imported a character, you kept the level that you had in BG1. If you had hit the XP cap in BG1 but gained additional XP  above the cap, you kept the XP and leveled up sooner (maybe immediately if you had a lot of extra XP).

 

 You lost most of your items (there were a few things that you found in Irenicus' dungeon that could be changed based on what you had in your inventory).

 

You're absolutely right, had a brainfart for a second there....

 

Still, I wonder how they are going to pull it off. Starting at a mid-high level (say 10ish) would be a bit weird considering what was accomplished in POE1 at the same level... Can it be that people in the Dyrwood are just weaker than their counterparts in Deadfire?

[floredon]

perhaps they will give us an option when we start the game, as they did in White March (whether to scale or not).

[thelee]

I think they could start this sequel with vanilla PoE level cap. What was it? Level 10? White March raised it 12, but since not everyone played they could lower it back a bit. But not too much, it's a sequel after all, with the same protagonist, so high level campaign is expected. And furthermore, they've teased us with those empty high level spell slots in PoE1, it's time to start filling them out.

Personally, I find mid-high level campaigns much more interesting to play than low level, because of the large variety of abilities available and rising level of sheer epic-ness of battles. BG2 and ToB were my favourites in this regard.

 

level 12 for vanilla. White March I raised it to 14, White March II raised it to 16.

 

I don't know, that still strikes me as quite high to start. I don't particularly care which way a campaign is set (except to note that I thought Throne of Bhaal was awful because its high-level gameplay was extremely poorly conceived/balanced), I just want to be able to feel a reasonable progression/advancement in my character. Even starting at level 12 (instead of 16) puts you pretty close to the top of the power curve. When you're close to casting spells like Wall of Many Colors or Hand of Weal and Woe (both of which can single-handedly win you epic fights on their own), or use an ability like the paladin's Sacred Immolation, or you're already able to cast Gaze of the Adragon, abilities/spells are going to have to start becoming degenerately powerful to keep up a meaningful sense of progression. And like I said, I personally really disliked Throne of Bhaal for precisely this reason: gameplay and whatever class/kit balance and sense of progression pretty much fell apart once you started getting high-level abilities or being able to memorize level 9 spells. To be fair, the D&D versions I've played have never been particularly great at high-levels (much less Bioware's ToB interpretation), and J.E. Sawyer noted this sort of D&D balancing arms-race in his GDC 2016 talk. So Obsidian could do better being aware of the problem, but it still makes me nervous.

[thelee]

perhaps they will give us an option when we start the game, as they did in White March (whether to scale or not).

 

I think this is good for a couple levels' worth of difference, but in general I found the level scaling to be underwhelming. I think it just boosted enemy stats, it didn't make them have more powerful abilities or have combat include more powerful monsters. When I come back to Act 3 after leveling up in White March, I can barely notice any difference when I have level scaling enabled. There's no way high-level scaling is going to create an equally-balanced experience for a 1 to 12 or 1 to 16 level difference without a lot of manual effort. At that point you might as well just bump the character down to level 1 or start everyone off at high level and save yourself the headache.

[mungomunk]

Must say I usually enjoy the low to mid level experience the most. So yes level 1 all the way for the beginning.

 

Despite that, I wouldn't mind a higher max-level, or at least a completely re-balanced level progression.