Fidel Castro Dead at 90

[BruceVC]

He killed less people than Nobel peace prize winner Oboma.

Well this is a silly post .....do we now blame the president of a country for anyone there military kills ?

 

Also its not historically accurate, the Cubans were involved for many years in various African conflicts including battling with the South African military in Angola. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_intervention_in_Angola

[Gfted1]

When you say " good for Cubans  " what do you mean?

I mean, we tend to view others through the lens of our existences and we apply our arbitrary standards. Maybe the general Cuban population is happy with their lives? I never hear of any rabble rousing down there. No "cracking down" by the government or stuff like that. They are never going to be a world player, or a powerhouse economy. Maybe things are fine as far as they are concerned?

[majestic]

What a dangerous throught you have there. People can be happy without worshipping at the altar of economic growth? Surely you jest.

 

You DO jest, right, pinko? Be careful lest McCarthy grabs you.

[BruceVC]

What a dangerous throught you have there. People can be happy without worshipping at the altar of economic growth? Surely you jest.

 

You DO jest, right, pinko? Be careful lest McCarthy grabs you.

 

Well you can say wanting to uplift yourself economically and buy nice things is "  worshipping at the altar of economic growth "

 

But the majority of people who live in abject poverty would see it  as " making there lives comfortable and adding real meaning and or a sense of identity "  

It may sound exciting but being unsure where your next meal is coming from is .....unenviable       

Edited November 26, 2016 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

 

When you say " good for Cubans  " what do you mean?

I mean, we tend to view others through the lens of our existences and we apply our arbitrary standards. Maybe the general Cuban population is happy with their lives? I never hear of any rabble rousing down there. No "cracking down" by the government or stuff like that. They are never going to be a world player, or a powerhouse economy. Maybe things are fine as far as they are concerned?

 

I am not sure if I mentioned to you but I am a collector of certain books on military history on certain topics

 

I have a very good book about the Cubans and there involvement in Africa, I have to give them credit. They really believed in a world where there interpretation of socialism and equality would be the best outcome for a continent like Africa.

 

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB67/

[Elerond]

 

When you say " good for Cubans  " what do you mean?

I mean, we tend to view others through the lens of our existences and we apply our arbitrary standards. Maybe the general Cuban population is happy with their lives? I never hear of any rabble rousing down there. No "cracking down" by the government or stuff like that. They are never going to be a world player, or a powerhouse economy. Maybe things are fine as far as they are concerned?

 

Situation for normal citizens in Cuba was so good that it didn't drive hundreds of thousands people risk their lives on desperate attempts to cross the sea and seek better lives elsewhere (read USA)

[Volourn]

The only way Castro was successful was keeping himself in power for decades. That was his goal so in that was successful. However, as a leader of Cuba he was a failure. the fact he brainwashed a certain amount of people (including some non Cubans apparently) doesn't change the fact. he ruined the country. People living in such poverty, such violencre, such awfulness that MILLIONS of people fled risking death to run straight to his enemy says that he was a failure in every way that matters. The guy also lied to the Cuban people. He promised democracy what they got was a murderous dictator who didn't give a crap about them.

 

But, hey, he stayed in power  and out lived multiple presidents largely because they actually weren't dictators   intent on keeping power at any cost. Unlike him. Yay him.

[Namutree]

 @ Baro, Namutree and others

 

Can I ask you guys a serious question because I may be misunderstanding something

 

When you guys talk about Cuba being a success why would you suggest that when the Cold War ended the ideological conflict of Capitalism vs Communism?  The West won .....so surly that would indicate the ultimate failure of the Cuba social experiment ?

What I'm trying to say is that communism/socialism wasn't/isn't the true heart of the Cuban regime. It's independence from US control. Something he achieved. The government that will be running the market economy of Cuba in the near future is the same government that controlled socialist Cuba. The cold war and socialism is a detail. If Cuba remains an independent nation that isn't just a US puppet; then his legacy is valid.

 

Whether that's a noble cause is a matter of perspective, IMO it isn't worth the cost to be independent from the US. Not to mention that Fidel was a bigger jerk than he needed to be, but regardless; he had a goal and achieved it. 

 

EDIT: Fidel only chose communism due to happenstance. If the USSR were capitalist and the US were socialist he would have been a pro-market dictator.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Namutree

[Gfted1]

Situation for normal citizens in Cuba was so good that it didn't drive hundreds of thousands people risk their lives on desperate attempts to cross the sea and seek better lives elsewhere (read USA)

 

Different reasons for different people. Some political, some economical. Most of our immigrants fall into one of those two categories.

[algroth]

Was never a supporter, but RIP all the same.

[Keyrock]

He made it all the way to 90.  I guess both Billy Joel and Iron Maiden were right.

 

 

[213374U]

Whether that's a noble cause is a matter of perspective, IMO it isn't worth the cost to be independent from the US.

Yeah, well. You might have a different view of what independence is worth if your country had just wrested it from a colonial power when the next one starts trying to annex you. I've spoken to a lot of Cuban expats and while their conditions were bad enough to force them to leave, none of them regarded annexation by the US as desirable. something something propaganda something something brainwashing

 

Economically, Castro's regime was a failure in absolute terms. But it's not like he had much to work with. Cuba isn't natural resource-rich (read: no oil or gold), and sanctions from the US seriously hamper development in other venues. In relative terms though, right next door you have Dominican Republic and especially Haiti, which weren't doing so hot even before the quakes, despite (economic) FREEDOM.

 

It's funny, because while the damage done by Castro to Cuba is almost a cliché in the West, not many people even know about Papa Doc, who was both a fierce anti-communist and far more sanguinary than Castro. Heh.

Edited November 26, 2016 by 213374U

[Malcador]

I never did send him a birthday card. We share the same one.

[Guard Dog]

 

Whether that's a noble cause is a matter of perspective, IMO it isn't worth the cost to be independent from the US.

Yeah, well. You might have a different view of what independence is worth if your country had just wrested it from a colonial power when the next one starts trying to annex you. I've spoken to a lot of Cuban expats and while their conditions were bad enough to force them to leave, none of them regarded annexation by the US as desirable. something something propaganda something something brainwashing

 

Except US annexation was not going to happen. Ever. Look up the Teller Amendment. The US guaranteed Cuban independence. The only concession they took was the land the naval base at Guantanamo Bay now sits on.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Surprised at the amount of salt here.

 

Castro is one of the most remarkable politicians and leaders of the 20th century. 

 

He turned Cuba from a US gambling den and whorehouse into a country with one of the best healthcare systems in the world (relative to what can be had for what is essentially a very poor country) and very good free education. The price was the centralization of political power and a cult of personality.

Poverty too, but then Cuba is never going to be an economic powerhouse.

 

But, so what. 

 

To achieve that, while defying the worlds largest power at their own doorstep - that is something no one in Latin America can claim. 

 

In fact - no leader in Europe post WW2 can claim a comparative demonstration of political independence and sheer willpower. Even de Gaulle caved in eventually - Castro never did.

 

 

With him die the great politics of the 20th century, and even though they brought a lot of misery as well as progress, its still sad to witness the end of an era.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

Whether that's a noble cause is a matter of perspective, IMO it isn't worth the cost to be independent from the US.

 

Yeah, well. You might have a different view of what independence is worth if your country had just wrested it from a colonial power when the next one starts trying to annex you. I've spoken to a lot of Cuban expats and while their conditions were bad enough to force them to leave, none of them regarded annexation by the US as desirable. something something propaganda something something brainwashing

Except US annexation was not going to happen. Ever. Look up the Teller Amendment. The US guaranteed Cuban independence. The only concession they took was the land the naval base at Guantanamo Bay now sits on.

For someone who doesn't trust the US government you seem to place an awful lot of trust in them abiding by agreements and not changing them.

Edited November 26, 2016 by KaineParker

[213374U]

Except US annexation was not going to happen. Ever. Look up the Teller Amendment. The US guaranteed Cuban independence. The only concession they took was the land the naval base at Guantanamo Bay now sits on.

 

You are right.

 

Cuba wasn't to be annexed, at least up until that point where Teller was amended or replaced, such as by Platt (Congress giveth, Congress taketh away). An arrangement like that of Puerto Rico would be more advantageous and likely, because enfranchisement isn't generally a good idea for your colonial subjects. Until then, a military occupation or the threat hereof, and practically puppeting the island's government would be sufficient. In this light, outright annexation incorporation to the Union as a fully fledged State like Texas or prospective one like Alaska sounds like a genuine improvement.

 

I'll endeavor to use surgically precise terms in these informal discussions from now on, thank you.

Edited November 26, 2016 by 213374U

[Elerond]

In fact - no leader in Europe post WW2 can claim a comparative demonstration of political independence and sheer willpower. Even de Gaulle caved in eventually - Castro never did.

 

There was also play piece states in Europe during cold war that successfully kept their indecency and do much better economically. And some of them even have free education and free healthcare systems that are accounted to being some of the best in the world. Those states also had strong willed governance but they succeed not making enemies from either USA or USSR. But of course it is hard to say if what they did was similar, better or lesser demonstration of political independence and sheer willpower, but at end they left their countries in better economical and political positions in the world, which of course don't mean that they necessary did better job.

[Orogun01]

Hasnt Raul been running the show for a few years now anyway? Now all thats left to do is build a statue of Fidel, pointing out to the sea or something, and call it a day.

Nope, international heroes status point out towards the sea; to their land of birth. National heroes point towards inland.

 

 @ Baro, Namutree and others

 

Can I ask you guys a serious question because I may be misunderstanding something

 

When you guys talk about Cuba being a success why would you suggest that when the Cold War ended the ideological conflict of Capitalism vs Communism?  The West won .....so surly that would indicate the ultimate failure of the Cuba social experiment ?

"The West won"...says the SJW, marxist, socialist person that believes himself a humanist.

[Volourn]

"He turned Cuba from a US gambling den and whorehouse into a country with one of the best healthcare systems in the world (relative to what can be had for what is essentially a very poor country) and very good free education. The price was the centralization of political power and a cult of personality.

Poverty too, but then Cuba is never going to be an economic powerhouse.

 

But, so what. "

 

Let's ignore all the fact he mass murdering of his fellow Cubans just so he can keep power, live in style while his little ones were kept in poverty, we have such a swell humanitarian 'fighting the good fight'. LMAO

[Malcador]

Surprised at the amount of salt here.

Seriously ? I was going to post a thread about this last night but held off due to figuring it would be a bilious (always wanted to use that word) one

[Zoraptor]

Surprised at the amount of salt here.

 

The US hates being baulked, and Castro did it for 49 years, including through the 90s when he was supposed to go the way of Ceacescu etc. That a lot of people in the US take it personally is no real surprise.

 

In fact - no leader in Europe post WW2 can claim a comparative demonstration of political independence and sheer willpower. Even de Gaulle caved in eventually - Castro never did.

Would have said that Tito could, but you'd know more about that than I. And for most of his time Castro was nor genuinely politically independent as he was solidly USSR sphere, albeit more by necessity than outright desire- it was only the last 15 years of his rulership where he was independent.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Zoraptor

[licketysplit]

Miami gets it.

 

[Orogun01]

Miami gets it.

 

INB4 liberals start making quips about the Trump sign.

[BruceVC]

 

Hasnt Raul been running the show for a few years now anyway? Now all thats left to do is build a statue of Fidel, pointing out to the sea or something, and call it a day.

Nope, international heroes status point out towards the sea; to their land of birth. National heroes point towards inland.

 

 @ Baro, Namutree and others

 

Can I ask you guys a serious question because I may be misunderstanding something

 

When you guys talk about Cuba being a success why would you suggest that when the Cold War ended the ideological conflict of Capitalism vs Communism?  The West won .....so surly that would indicate the ultimate failure of the Cuba social experiment ?

"The West won"...says the SJW, marxist, socialist person that believes himself a humanist.

 

 

 

Would you prefer I lied and said   " Communism prevailed as it was stronger ideology  " 

 

 

And I have never claimed to be a SJW  because that word gets abused...I am definitely not a Marxist

 

I do believe in a form of socialism like our friends in Scandinavia and I am a humanist ...ask volo, he will confirm this