The US Election, Part XI

[Wrath of Dagon]

If a charter school is failing, the parent would have the choice to use their voucher in a fantastic public school, no?

 

Edit:

Well, the statement was designed to provoke a response-by-omission, but obviously it is devoid of facts. The vast majority of US citizens attend public schools yet somehow were not all in jail. Weird huh? Any truth in WoD's statement would be focused on the inner-city schools.

If you reread the exchange, we were specifically discussing "schools in these troubled areas" Edited November 29, 2016 by Wrath of Dagon

[Volourn]

"Did you feel good about this when you typed it?  Because it is terrible."

 

It is terrible. It is terrible that public schools are so horrible that parents can't trust the gov't's public schools to do the job taxes pay for instead are better off to go to private schools because they get the job done. Perhaps, instead of being so defensive, look at the facts. But, no, you blame the parents for  the public schools' failure. LMAO

 

Also, funny t that youa re so fearful of haves and have nots that you'd rather have EVERYONE be have nots.  That is like being jealous of the rich so you make sure EVEYRONE is starving on the streets. Instead of trying to bring others down you should be looking to bring people up to the higher level.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Volourn

[Wrath of Dagon]

To be fair, public schools aren't responsible for all societal problems, but the teachers' unions tend to worry a lot more about the wellbeing of their members than the children: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/06/16-new-york-teacher-accus_n_1409184.html

[Hurlshort]

 

 

 

 Vouchers aren't going to solve any of these problems, and instead will take away the scant resources that these schools have to try and make a difference in these troubled areas.

Except that public schools don't make a difference in those areas, they just warehouse kids until they're ready for prison.

 

 

Did you feel good about this when you typed it?  Because it is terrible.

 

What is? That he said it or that this is truth and nothing is done about it?

If your solution is the burden of fighting GANGS on PARENTS (sic?!) then clearly I'm baffled.

You sound like the old post soviet gov. clerks that claimed that without them the country will collapse.

Are you by any chance involved in public schooling?

 

 

 

I think you misunderstand the situation inner city schools deal with tremendously.  There are a fair amount of kids in these schools that are second or third generation gang members.  Even those that are not involved in a gang community are often dealing with other serious issues at home.  

 

However that does not mean we should just write them off as future prison inmates.  That's a terrible was to think and unnecessarily jaded.  People regularly do come out of these difficult schools and make something of themselves.  It's the best tool we have to break the cycle.  It should be something we continue to work hard to improve. 

[HoonDing]

[imaenoon]

To be fair, public schools aren't responsible for all societal problems, but the teachers' unions tend to worry a lot more about the wellbeing of their members than the children: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/06/16-new-york-teacher-accus_n_1409184.html

Yeah, The vast majority of teachers I know care about the kids. Most of them go considerably out of their way for the kids. However, teacher unions increasingly concern themselves with liberal politics at the expense of teachers, and I have at least one example. It should go without saying that the teacher unions are not children unions and are not concerned in and of themselves for children. Most teachers are, but the union isn't, which shouldn't surprise anyone.

[Hurlshort]

The bigger the union, the bigger the problems.  Of course that goes both ways, the bigger the school district, the bigger the problems.  

[imaenoon]

I still think it's comedy that someone who didn't even get 1.1% of the vote has managed to throw the election on its ass. Did the Illegal Hispanic immigrants steal the election? The Russian mafia (also known as the formal government)? Perhaps a consortium of Cuban, Iranian, and North Korean exiled businessmen? The United States has become telemundo telenovela.

[Elerond]

Teacher unions don't prevent existence of public school system that is relatively equal to all students from all over the country, regardless of their background and wealth and that still offer some of the best education in the world. Also public schools are capable to offer excellent education that can rival even best private schools in world at least in certain circumstances (at least if we believe in the studies about the subject).

 

Problems in school systems aren't easily pinpointed, and they are even harder to fix and lots of problems are rooted in cultural and sociological causes that don't necessary show themselves in statistics or general studies of education systems. And which it is difficult to replicate education system that is proven to work in one country to another country.

[imaenoon]

I believe that Finland has, by reputation, an outstanding school system. I don't really know, but I think the wife played a video about it recently. She makes me watch these things regularly.

[Elerond]

I believe that Finland has, by reputation, an outstanding school system. I don't really know, but I think the wife played a video about it recently. She makes me watch these things regularly.

 

PISA and other studies have ranked it among best (usually top 3 or top 5) in the world for couple decades now. But those studies are also have their critics. 

[Wrath of Dagon]

There are certainly good public school systems in the US. No one is advocating abandoning public education, the idea is to provide more choice and competition. Edit: The biggest problem as mentioned is in the inner cities, where you have both the out-of-control teachers' unions and the self-dealing politicians that enable them, in a addition to societal problems which make educating all the children very difficult.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Wrath of Dagon

[Zoraptor]

However that does not mean we should just write them off as future prison inmates.  That's a terrible was to think and unnecessarily jaded.  People regularly do come out of these difficult schools and make something of themselves.  It's the best tool we have to break the cycle.  It should be something we continue to work hard to improve.

I've never got a proper answer out of 'charter school' or private school or 'voucher' advocates of how they would break the cycle anyway. If the problem is gangs and crime then how does a privatised system stop that? If it's bad parents then how does a privatised system improve them? Are they still going to use the same educational framework? If they aren't who decides that whatever they do use is appropriate? Whole thing looks closest to the woeful kludge that is the US health system where competitive principles result in a great system if you're a millionaire (and healthy) as you can choose whatever you want, but an utter disaster if you're poor or ill. There's lots of handwaving and talk about competition improving everything- by the mythical magic of the invisible hand of the market- and no thought to how the practicalities work out.

 

If it's anything like the (small scale, fortunately) mess charter schools are here then they cherry pick pupils to make themselves look good and actually cost the tax payer more than normal schools.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Zoraptor

[Wrath of Dagon]

Read the post above yours, it's not just gangs and crime. Those will have to be addressed with additional policies. Edit: As I've posted before, some of the most dangerous gangs are something like 90% illegal aliens.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Wrath of Dagon

[Azdeus]

If it's anything like the (small scale, fortunately) mess charter schools are here then they cherry pick pupils to make themselves look good and actually cost the tax payer more than normal schools.

Here they just cheat instead, and force the teachers to raise the pupils grades to increase their attractiveness.

[imaenoon]

Competition *can* be good and it's part of life at any rate. Competition is not in and of itself good. Think of a football game. One team is on offense and one is on defense. Defense doesn't want offense to get something good. In business, one business wants to produce a good product (good) but wants to prevent other companies from getting their product to the public (bad). Competition has excellent attendant qualities, but it is itself neutral. Same with diversity. It's good in that it brings different ideas to the table and creates ingenuity and those ideas compete to find the most favorable one (good) but also creates wedges and disunity (bad). Diversity also has excellent attendant qualities, but it is not in and of itself good.

 

However, I think inasmuch as parents who are interested are able to find a school that has less exposure to the qualities they don't want for their children, vouchers can be good. ...But bad schools are more or less a symptom of a problem, and that problem exists before school. When the child begins public education already suffering from other issues in his community, how can education by itself solve the problem.

 

As an aside, I have had life saving health care on more than one occasion, and I can give those examples if in doubt. My health care has been excellent with the exception of a couple of years recently when there were issues with changing insurance. I am not rich.

[Maedhros]

I believe that Finland has, by reputation, an outstanding school system. I don't really know, but I think the wife played a video about it recently. She makes me watch these things regularly.

 

Yeah, other countries have a lot to learn from Finland and their trust-based approach. Teachers are trusted to be innovative, and there is little to no standardized testing. You learn to learn, not to score well on tests. From what I've read, educators are running the school system - not politicians or buisness people who sadly think competition is the best way of getting better schools.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Thingolfin

[Zoraptor]

 

If it's anything like the (small scale, fortunately) mess charter schools are here then they cherry pick pupils to make themselves look good and actually cost the tax payer more than normal schools.

Here they just cheat instead, and force the teachers to raise the pupils grades to increase their attractiveness.

 

 

They likely do that here as well, it just hasn't been proven- they get money from the government depending on 'performance' so there's definite reason to massage stats. They do have external exams as metrics as well which are harder to fake, but charter schools at least theoretically have internal metrics which determine performance bonuses. They've been trying to bring in 'performance pay' and the like for ages in the public sector which is a terrible idea as it leads to rote metric learning designed only to get good marks on the metrics- either from bad teachers gaming the system or from schools doing the same as they're desperate for money- and fudging any internal metrics. And of course the good teachers either get poached by rich schools or are good for reasons that aren't necessarily tangible by the sort of metrics used. They've had the same thing with the police and all it has lead to is people being encouraged not to report crimes by police who don't want their stats ruined.

 

At least I'm now reminded how much I liked The Wire S4, as (generally) depressing as it was.

[Meshugger]

 

I believe that Finland has, by reputation, an outstanding school system. I don't really know, but I think the wife played a video about it recently. She makes me watch these things regularly.

 

Yeah, other countries have a lot to learn from Finland and their trust-based approach. Teachers are trusted to be innovative, and there is little to no standardized testing. You learn to learn, not to score well on tests. From what I've read, educators are running the school system - not politicians or buisness people who sadly think competition is the best way of getting better schools.

 

 

You forgot one thing. Every time teachers from other countries visit finnish classrooms they are surprised by one thing in peculiar: The students are silent, obedient and follow the instructions of the teacher. Such manners do not come from the blue, but rather from home. It takes a village to raise a child properly and all that.

[licketysplit]

Trump's comment on flag burning was his craziest yet. Then I find Hillary supported the same thing? Get me off this planet. At this point I think everyone wants him off twitter when he's actually pres. 

[imaenoon]

Trump's comment on flag burning was his craziest yet. Then I find Hillary supported the same thing? Get me off this planet. At this point I think everyone wants him off twitter when he's actually pres.

I want him off Twitter ten years ago.

[Azdeus]

They likely do that here as well, it just hasn't been proven- they get money from the government depending on 'performance' so there's definite reason to massage stats. They do have external exams as metrics as well which are harder to fake, but charter schools at least theoretically have internal metrics which determine performance bonuses. They've been trying to bring in 'performance pay' and the like for ages in the public sector which is a terrible idea as it leads to rote metric learning designed only to get good marks on the metrics- either from bad teachers gaming the system or from schools doing the same as they're desperate for money- and fudging any internal metrics. And of course the good teachers either get poached by rich schools or are good for reasons that aren't necessarily tangible by the sort of metrics used. They've had the same thing with the police and all it has lead to is people being encouraged not to report crimes by police who don't want their stats ruined.

 

At least I'm now reminded how much I liked The Wire S4, as (generally) depressing as it was.

 

I was reading some news reports earlier today where they pointed out that they kick underperforming students out of the school, wich is one way to boost ones averages I suppose. Here's a couple of others, but not the one I found earlier; * Many charter schools succeed by excluding or limiting the number of students they accept who have disabilities or who are English language learners. They are also free to push out low-scoring students and send them back to the local public school. This improves their results, but it leaves the regular public schools with disproportionate numbers of the most challenging students.

 

6. Skimming and weed-out strategies. Dr. Kevin Welner, professor of education policy at the University of Colorado at Boulder, has found that charter schools “can shape their student enrollment in surprising ways.” He has identified a “Dirty Dozen” methods used by charter schools “that often decrease the likelihood of students enrolling with a disfavored set of characteristics, such as students with special needs, those with low test scores, English learners, or students in poverty.”

[Maedhros]

 

 

I believe that Finland has, by reputation, an outstanding school system. I don't really know, but I think the wife played a video about it recently. She makes me watch these things regularly.

 

Yeah, other countries have a lot to learn from Finland and their trust-based approach. Teachers are trusted to be innovative, and there is little to no standardized testing. You learn to learn, not to score well on tests. From what I've read, educators are running the school system - not politicians or buisness people who sadly think competition is the best way of getting better schools.

 

 

You forgot one thing. Every time teachers from other countries visit finnish classrooms they are surprised by one thing in peculiar: The students are silent, obedient and follow the instructions of the teacher. Such manners do not come from the blue, but rather from home. It takes a village to raise a child properly and all that.

 

 

That's a fair point, but maybe students in other countries would tend to be more silent and obedient (or even better, participating) if their teacher had more autonomy and creative freedom like they do in Finland? Haven't watched it in ages, but I think S4 of the Wire illustrates this in a good way. Teachers usually know best what their students need.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Thingolfin

[imaenoon]

I did a one year stint at the school attached to my church. Pay sucked, but I was mostly giving back anyway. That was technically parochial school as opposed to private. most of the students were middle class. There were a few who had special help with tuition and whatnot because they were poorer. A few were rich. As in, one of the students came to school wearing a watch not much less expensive than my car at the time. (what idiot gives his kid a watch that expensive?) I switched to a parish closer to home, but I attended that church for a long time and I still know some of the teachers and there was only one student whom they considered removing and that was for behavior issues. I don't recall that he got removed, but I do recall that he was extremely difficult and that's coming from someone who, in addition to my year at the parochial school, subbed in the public school district. ...And it wasn't like the school was considering this after two days. After a couple of years of trying to work with him, his presence was starting to impact the education of the other students. He *might* have been Hispanic in the way we use the word nowadays, but I think he's was plain old white. Anyhow, the children from that school did very well in about every yardstick, from success in high school to test scores to success in college. Putting down parochial schools blindly is silly, since many of them do excellent work.

 

Special needs kids probably should go to public schools because they have the resources. If there are vouchers, then they should address that particular factor so public schools don't get completely screwed. We tend to spend a lot more money in this country (at least in the districts I know) trying to bring up students who have no hope of performing at grade level than developing and cultivating talent from above average students. Vouchers aren't a panacea, but they might do well if implemented in a clever or thoughtful way. One thing is sure, the public is starting to warm to the idea of vouchers, slowly to be sure, but warming nonetheless. If you hate what you think vouchers are, get in on the ground floor and try to make them what you think they should be. This could be entirely cynical by taking the teeth out of vouchers in order to ensure the program fails or it could even be *gasp* trying to figure out a way to make these things work without completely destroying the public school system.

 

Anyway, I take it that DeVos is no longer the center of forum ire for this thread. She's pro-voucher and anti-common core. I used to be for common core when they were simply standards, but now that it's clear the feds are going to use it as a push to push curriculum, I think people should take a step back. ...And, just like the Reid Rule from before, don't push for extra powers for the feds just because your guy is in office because you could just mock the idea of getting President Trump... and then get him.

 

Also, I agree with Thingolfin (related to Fingolfin?) that it doesn't make sense to require the education, continued training, and life long learning as we do of teachers and then not give them more discretion on how to deal with their classrooms.

[Hurlshort]

I am pretty curious how the lack of common core support on a Federal level will play out.  But then I just remember that everything in education is cyclical, and it is no surprise that the big new thing is about to become the old thing as we move on to the next big new thing, which will be replaced in 5 years by the next big new thing which looks remarkably similar to the big new thing that is now an old thing from a few cycles ago.

 

Meanwhile my job is always the same, and that is simply to push kids to use their brains.