Things are not nice in Nice

[Meshugger]

Don't worry oby, you're safe with me.

[Hastur]

 

 

Yeah, it does.  If someone is born and raised in France, they are home grown.  It's not a complicated word.

Must mean every white guy born in the US is technically a Native American.  Those tricky definitions.  They're hard for everyone to nail down just right, even the left.

 

 

That's a gigantic fallacy if I ever saw one. Native Americans are, these days, a specific ethnic group with the USA. Unless you are actually arguing that almost the entire population of the USA is not "home grown".

 

I'm not the one who got stuck on the idea of 'home grown' in the first place.  I'm merely one of the people pointing out that it's hard to argue (for what I would consider the most jaded and cynical political purposes) that a group that is, as you say, distinct, self segregates, and maintains its own separate culture within a society is somehow 'home grown' and therefore the product and blame of the society.  This is all smoke and mirrors.  It's a way to distract people by pointing out the crack in the window sill, the peeling paint on the walls, and the burnt out light bulb in the bathroom in the hopes that they won't notice the house is on fire.

 

Of course 'Native American' is distinct from someone who is native to America.  We know that because as a group we've made that distinction.  This is language, after all.  We do with it what we want in order to serve our needs.  Sadly, to paraphrase Voltaire, I think, some people use words as a way to disguise their thoughts.  If I went into the local reservation and shot up the place, no one would contend that I was 'home grown.'  In the same way, we shouldn't pretend that a group that separates itself so religiously (forgive the pun) from its host nation is somehow born out of its culture.

[obyknven]

Don't worry oby, you're safe with me.

 

Sorry, but i prefer girls.

[Hurlshort]

Some people here are so quick to jump on the failed multiculturalism and anti-Islam message when these events happen, while completely ignoring the economics and mental health of these terrorists.  

 

Most groups self segregate when they have large scale immigration.  That's why most cities that have faced major immigration have districts like Little Italy, Chinatown, etc.

 

This is a complex situation.  You have a chunk of disenfranchised young people facing difficult economic circumstances, you have a group like ISIS that aims to take advantage of those young people by feeding their discontent with violence.  You have a growing hostility towards all Muslims, which further disenfranchises the youth and makes it easier for ISIS to influence, and you have a religion that is fractured and facing tremendous violence within their own states.   

[Malcador]

Newt has the right idea. Test Muslims if they like Sharia or not. Maybe have special detectives called Koran Runners to weed them out.

 

[Guard Dog]

Newt has the right idea. Test Muslims if they like Sharia or not. Maybe have special detectives called Koran Runners to weed them out.

 

Totally! Sign me up for that job. I've got an old trench coat and can do the burned out. world weary look!

 

I'll even drop hints that might make folks believe I'm secretly a Muslim as I take 'em out!

 

[Rosbjerg]

I have to say it's even more disheartening to see so many voices- and many more each time- join in on the fear chorus.. even on this board.

 

Europe took in a huge amount of Muslims a little over 30 years ago- in the beginning they were over represented in the criminal statistic, there was violence, there were problems, most of them traumatized from horrendous experiences - but local governments, businesses and people decided to help them out and so the violence and problems started to fade.. and now they are no longer over represented in criminal statistics, they're good neighbors, boy/girlfriends, coworkers.. and still very much Muslims.

 

Only difference, they were from Balkan.. But I guess those are the 'good kind'?

 

 

I'm worried because I live in a multicultural neighborhood with friends of all creeds and colours - and I see them getting more and more radicalized, more and more insular and more and more fearful of what us natives are gonna do- that fear doesn't stem from hateful imams though, but from constantly seeing that look on everyone's face.. That fearful look they get just by walking down the street. That look is killing them and their response is to slowly pull away- and the weakest of them find solace in the worst of places.

 

There are huge problems we need to address, but pretending that we are not all responsible for what's going on and jumping on the blame-train is extremely irresponsible and dangerous... 

 

 

I'm gonna quote numbers here, because a lot of you need to read this a second time...

 

I'm going to guess you mean peaceful coexistence, when you speak of integration. No, that's only going to get worse. An ever-increasing wealth gap, quickly deteriorating prospects for an entire generation that never learned to deal with frustration in a healthy way, a largely manufactured gender discourse that has led to identity issues for a lot of young men, anti-immigration sentiments and rhetoric coming to a boiling point, authoritarianism on the rise, etc. It's a recipe for disaster. If you think "the problem" is with Islam, you have an extremely narrow perspective.

[Nonek]

I blame the Stranglers!

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

I have to say it's even more disheartening to see so many voices- and many more each time- join in on the fear chorus.. even on this board.

 

Europe took in a huge amount of Muslims a little over 30 years ago- in the beginning they were over represented in the criminal statistic, there was violence, there were problems, most of them traumatized from horrendous experiences - but local governments, businesses and people decided to help them out and so the violence and problems started to fade.. and now they are no longer over represented in criminal statistics, they're good neighbors, boy/girlfriends, coworkers.. and still very much Muslims.

 

Only difference, they were from Balkan.. But I guess those are the 'good kind'?

 

 

I'm worried because I live in a multicultural neighborhood with friends of all creeds and colours - and I see them getting more and more radicalized, more and more insular and more and more fearful of what us natives are gonna do- that fear doesn't stem from hateful imams though, but from constantly seeing that look on everyone's face.. That fearful look they get just by walking down the street. That look is killing them and their response is to slowly pull away- and the weakest of them find solace in the worst of places.

 

There are huge problems we need to address, but pretending that we are not all responsible for what's going on and jumping on the blame-train is extremely irresponsible and dangerous... 

 

 

I'm gonna quote numbers here, because a lot of you need to read this a second time...

 

I'm going to guess you mean peaceful coexistence, when you speak of integration. No, that's only going to get worse. An ever-increasing wealth gap, quickly deteriorating prospects for an entire generation that never learned to deal with frustration in a healthy way, a largely manufactured gender discourse that has led to identity issues for a lot of young men, anti-immigration sentiments and rhetoric coming to a boiling point, authoritarianism on the rise, etc. It's a recipe for disaster. If you think "the problem" is with Islam, you have an extremely narrow perspective.

 

 

What's a huge number of muslims. Yugoslavia was never a huge state and the muslims were one of the smallest groups within. The population of Bosnia is around 4 million, half of which are muslims, the majority of which have never emigrated anywhere. The actual numbers should be incomparable to the waves of the last years. I think that more enter Europe per year in the last few years than the entire refugee wave of all of the Balkan wars combined (and that includes all nationalities).

Edited July 15, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[Rosbjerg]

Then let's exaggerate for effect.. Even if we took in 40 million- we are still 700 million people in Europe. They are a single drop in the ocean of mankind...

 

Stop being afraid of numbers and go talk to people.

[Fighter]

So essentially Europeans should pay with their lives, finances, and general security for an uncertain amount of time in the hope things get better. On top of that accept and don't dare complain about the current trend that may see Europeans becoming a minority in their own countries or even their people downright disappearing. And just hope that by the time they are the minority their new neighbors are sufficiently European to not want their daughters be put in burkas.

[Gfted1]

^And dont forget that its your fault.

[Rosbjerg]

So essentially Europeans mankind should pay with their lives, finances, and general security for an uncertain amount of time in the hope things get better.

 

Of course... It will always be the safer bet to improve the condition of the many over the condition of the few.

 

We are defined by that action.. since before the dawn of civilization, when we went out of that cave to find food for our family and friends, knowing that it might well kill us...

 

 

On top of that accept and don't dare complain about the current trend that may see Europeans becoming a minority in their own countries or even their people downright disappearing. And just hope that by the time they are the minority their new neighbors are sufficiently European to not want their daughters be put in burkas.

 

No, see people died and paid with their lives, finances and general security of an uncertain amount of time- in the hope that you would one day be able to exercise the right to complain and debate all you want.

 

Edit: Even for those they didn't like and disagreed with - but sure, should the day come, when these boogeymen you speak of are as numerous as you think, I will be right there with you on the barricade.

 

It's just that I know them and they don't want your kids in burkas.

[pmp10]

IS has not claimed responsibility just yet.

I wonder if this didn't start as extended suicide before turning into terrorism.

[BruceVC]

 

So essentially Europeans mankind should pay with their lives, fi

I'm not so sure mankind should be the ones to pay?

 

I would rather Islamic extremism was eradicated than everyone else pay?

[213374U]

the current trend that may see Europeans becoming a minority in their own countries or even their people downright disappearing.

 

[citation needed] [dubious - discuss]

[Fighter]

Of course... It will always be the safer bet to improve the condition of the many over the condition of the few.

 

We are defined by that action.. since before the dawn of civilization, when we went out of that cave to find food for our family and friends, knowing that it might well kill us...

 

 

No, see people died and paid with their lives, finances and general security of an uncertain amount of time- in the hope that you would one day be able to exercise the right to complain and debate all you want.

 

Edit: Even for those they didn't like and disagreed with - but sure, should the day come, when these boogeymen you speak of are as numerous as you think, I will be right there with you on the barricade.

 

It's just that I know them and they don't want your kids in burkas.

 

This sounds very sweet awww. I really do hope your generous sacrifice is never big enough to bring that dream close enough to the more practical realities of human nature.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Fighter

[Rosbjerg]

^ Last refuge of the unimaginative indeed...

 

I would rather Islamic extremism was eradicated than everyone else pay?

 

How did we historically deal with religious extremism here in Europe? How did we deal with the IRA and the religious infighting in Ireland (oh how quick people forget about the old terrorists when the new arrive)

 

I guess we could just have carpet bombed all of them.

 

Did we learn nothing from the peace of Westphalia? .. or well I suppose we learned all to well didn't we...

[Fighter]

 

the current trend that may see Europeans becoming a minority in their own countries or even their people downright disappearing.

 

[citation needed] [dubious - discuss]

 

 

You mean citations to the creeping demographic changes? I thought this was a well known fact.

[Malcador]

Well somewhat relevant http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/07/15/485900076/how-a-danish-town-helped-young-muslims-turn-away-from-isis

 

It is NPR, but was somewhat interesting. Not sure the Danish approach can be exported.

[Fighter]

Well somewhat relevant http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/07/15/485900076/how-a-danish-town-helped-young-muslims-turn-away-from-isis

 

It is NPR, but was somewhat interesting. Not sure the Danish approach can be exported.

 

This sort of stuff (people who go and join ISIS) btw way puts under question the economic prosperity argument. Plenty of those people give up a better life to go die for ISIS.

[213374U]

You mean citations to the creeping demographic changes? I thought this was a well known fact.

It's a well known myth or conspiracy theory, perhaps.

 

Feel free to post literature in support of the theory that current native European populations will become extinct, or even a minority, and replaced by Muslims.

 

(Breivik's Manifesto, not having been peer-reviewed, is unacceptable as evidence, I'll have you know)

 

edit: also, "Muslim" is not an ethnicity, so I'd also like an explanation of how a religious denomination is going to replace ethnic groups...

Edited July 15, 2016 by 213374U

[Gfted1]

Can we get back to the victim blaming? I'm fascinated that these people brought this on themselves because someone else was poor or on the receiving end of fearful looks (which has a certain delicious irony to it). OF COURSE the only response to poverty is mass killing. Totally nothing to do with the religion. Nothing at all.

[Gromnir]

Can we get back to the victim blaming? I'm fascinated that these people brought this on themselves because someone else was poor or on the receiving end of fearful looks (which has a certain delicious irony to it). OF COURSE the only response to poverty is mass killing. Totally nothing to do with the religion. Nothing at all.

coulda' all been prevented with an assault weapons ban.

 

...

 

no, wait. that doesn't make any sense, does it?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Fighter]

It's a well known myth or conspiracy theory, perhaps.

 

Feel free to post literature in support of the theory that current native European populations will become extinct, or even a minority, and replaced by Muslims.

 

No the demographic changes are a fact. The more bizarre variations are a conspiracy theory. Which is why I strategically said "may" and expressed the frustration about how people fear even speaking about such.

 

And I still stand by what I said. Because plenty of so called "progressives" wont even dispute such conspiracy theories. They just think you need to accept it and will get outraged that the idea should even concern anyone - like I said.

 

edit: also, "Muslim" is not an ethnicity, so I'd also like an explanation of how a religious denomination is going to replace ethnic groups...

 

This is a good point. The same sort of thing with people calling racism over criticisms of Islam.

 

But ultimately we all understand what is being talked about. I don't care what their ethnicity is, I just have no desire for any significant portion of a population leaving next to me being sympathetic to sharia bs.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Fighter